Madness with double lightning proc. Good if you've got a reliable healer:

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#201oZccMMbZfMoRsrkrc.2

Full madness with +10% AoE dmg. Good if you don't have a reliable healer/better for 1v1:

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#201G0bZcZfMoRsrkrfz.2

Btw, both work fantastically with PvE armorings/hilt (1064 expertise).

Madness with double lightning proc. Good if you've got a reliable healer:

 

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#201oZccMMbZfMoRsrkrc.2

 

Full madness with +10% AoE dmg. Good if you don't have a reliable healer/better for 1v1:

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#201G0bZcZfMoRsrkrfz.2

 

Btw, both work fantastically with PvE armorings/hilt (1064 expertise).

I'm sorry but I would disagree on this. There is no reason any sorcerer shouldn't be running full expertise. Also both of those specs lack any real kind of force efficiency which is needed in longer fights or when focused alot. As well both builds you listed lack any real burst, full madness is only for duels and pve really.

Assuming you are talking about pvp

Use this build if you want to maximize damage output. It requires some practice as without good kiting the build is difficult to survive in.

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#201G0bZMsMMdRMZcMcRs0z.2

If you are looking for a build with better 1v1 capabilities and utility use this.

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#201bZMsMMdRr0zZcMcRsMz.2

Full madness works fine in pve and in pvp, but lacks the burst needed for rated. Full lightning also works for pve and pvp, but it takes more work to pull it off in either. You have to have kiting down to a science if you want to play full lightning in pvp. Keep in mind though that both builds I posted are designed for pvp purposes.

I won't deny, the first spec you posted can put out great DPS in certain situations where the opposing players are grouped up. I often spec it for Ancient Hypergates, and the odd Voidstar, but elsewhere it's just a fragmented rotation which is easily shut down. Madness-based specs are far more fluid, and Death Field/Force Lightning with 1050 bonus dmg ticks hard enough to qualify as burst damage - hence why I use the double proc.

As for expertise, I haven't lost a blanket 1v1 against another dps sage/sorc for as long as I've been using PvE bits - at least 6 months... That's a lot of 1v1s! I tend to have 50% of my health left when they hit 0%, as well as frequent 5.8-6k hits with Death Field (when using +10% AoE). I don't put this all down to 'skill' so much as gearing. You lose some defence - sure - but dps sorc is all kill or be killed anyway.

At the end of the day, it's all preference and playstyle though. I agree that the AoE hybrid can put out really good numbers over a period of time, but it lacks any of the critical multipliers and a fluid rotation, and hence as far as 'burst' goes, imo you're better off taking crit multiplier from one of the trees.

The two variations are you are trading expertise for power or expertise for main stat. Statistically speaking the only stat you maybe "should" trade expertise for is main stat as it is better than power. The bonus damage gain from main stat is basically negated by the damage increase from expertise, so when you look at it again you are trading a small amount of crit for damage reduction and a small healing bonus.

The thing is part of the sorcerer survivability is in our healing, and the effectiveness of that healing goes up as you take less damage. Additionally you may hit people with low expertise harder with PVE gear, but you will be hitting people with higher expertise for less. If you aren't alive you aren't doing damage.

If this was a 1v1 game I would play madness all day, but both specs I posted do fine in 1v1. This is not to mention most sorcs I've seen don't even realize you can dispel sorc dots. The average skill in this game is really low, so I try not to judge performance based off of a 1v1 perspective, especially since the majority of pvp in this game is warzones.

Madness is perfectly viable for PvP. Great utility and damage. And it's only getting better in 2.0.

Wrong, the only thing getting better is 30% reduced damage while stunned. Madness is losing instant WW and lots of classes are getting more root breaks = GG

Wrong, the only thing getting better is 30% reduced damage while stunned. Madness is losing instant WW and lots of classes are getting more root breaks = GG

What part of "damage boost" is hard to understand? Seriously, they upped the damage on all DOTs, plus Death Field now hits 5 people instead of 3. Good lord, this forum is so full of chicken littles.

I just run full madness with 1.2k crit hits from FL, it;s boring but it works.

The DoTs are great as they are on relatively low cooldowns, if they are cleansed that healer loses a GCD and I can easily pummel out another 3k or so damage from FL.

EDIT: Full madness is also great for killing GS/Commandos.

What part of "damage boost" is hard to understand? Seriously, they upped the damage on all DOTs, plus Death Field now hits 5 people instead of 3. Good lord, this forum is so full of chicken littles.

No way, they upped the damage on abilities for for an expansion? WHO KNEW?

What you, like a lot of people, fail to realize is the fact that everyone else damage and hp was also increased. In proportion to just the amount of hp increase vs our damage increase(talking about madness here), the TTK stayed relatively the same as live while on other classes it went down. Should I also mention how madness does not have DoT protection either? ATM hybrid is still the way to go for general WZs, because melee will eat madness for breakfast, lunch, and dinner!

Also, if you are hitting 5 people in a WZ at once then you are very lucky. That change was more or less for pve.

Variations of this spec will continue to pop up and be better in WZs until Sorcerers can get pvp fixes

No way, they upped the damage on abilities for for an expansion? WHO KNEW?

 

What you, like a lot of people, fail to realize is the fact that everyone else damage and hp was also increased. In proportion to just the amount of hp increase vs our damage increase(talking about madness here), the TTK stayed relatively the same as live while on other classes it went down. Should I also mention how madness does not have DoT protection either? ATM hybrid is still the way to go for general WZs, because melee will eat madness for breakfast, lunch, and dinner!

Yeah, you don't get it. Damage increases with skill level caps and such, but they also increased the base damage of all DoTs for Sages and Sorcs. They did not buff base damage for abilities on every class. They gave everyone additional talents, and everyone's damage and HP will go up as a consequence of new gearing. But Sages and Sorcs get a buff on top of that to all their DoTs.

I have no problems with melee classes on my Madness Sorc. Low cooldown root on Creeping Terror, force slow, force speed. Tons of kiting tools. It's a great spec.

 

I have no problems with melee classes on my Madness Sorc. Low cooldown root on Creeping Terror, force slow, force speed. Tons of kiting tools. It's a great spec.

More classes are getting root breaks, some on a short CD / every class has a slow, some way better than ours, force speed is way too easily countered with roots.

The kiting tools are nice IF you are fighting 1v1, but the tools suck in a WZ where the sorcerer is the first dps focused because of how easy it is to kill them.

Yeah, you don't get it. Damage increases with skill level caps and such, but they also increased the base damage of all DoTs for Sages and Sorcs. They did not buff base damage for abilities on every class. They gave everyone additional talents, and everyone's damage and HP will go up as a consequence of new gearing. But Sages and Sorcs get a buff on top of that to all their DoTs.

EVERYONES base damage was increased. Sure we may have gotten a talent that increases all DoT damage by 9% and a tad extra base damage for DoTs, but with Force Lightning still doing around 40% of total dps for full madness, the DoTs suck. Lets not forget how madness still does not have any DoT protection whatsoever, and that as an attrition archetype, madness does not have the survivability part.

It's not the class or the build. Madness is perfectly viable if you know what you are doing. It's not a faceroll build like derp-smash, but a skilled player can do quite well with it.

Yes it is the class and build. A good/skilled player can do well with them, BUT they would do a lot better with others. THAT is the problem, and it needs to be fixed to allow non end tier people to do well vs other classes that can derp and do better.

If class A is not as good or viable as class B then the difference might be small at extreme skill levels, but as you go down in skill levels the gap gets wider and wider. It is especially noticeable when the gap at extreme skill tier is as wide as it is currently.

I guess it is a difference in approach. I'd rather they took the derp out of other specs instead of adding it to more.

I am not asking for easy abilities for easy kills. I, like many other Sorcerers, am asking for the tools to be able to hold my own against other classes. Not the half-baked abilities which are countered easily by every other class. Even more so now that Whirlwind won't be instant and other classes get root breaks.

Again, the only thing full madness has going for it is 30% damage reduction while stunned. 70% of our utility abilities are in the lightning tree, and all but 1 are out of reach for full madness.

I think people tend to over-state the gap between classes/specs. I run a lot of warzones, and Sorcs and Sages don't seem gimped to me. I see lots of Sorcs and Sages topping damage charts and generally doing well in warzones. I don't have access to Bioware's metrics, but if Sorcs and Sages are so underpowered, I think it would be more noticeable.

Madness gets a 2-second root on 9-second cooldown attached to a dot ability. The spec doesn't need as much utility as lightning because it is far more mobile. Also, you can dot and use death field from range and often not even get noticed. It isn't until lightning bolts start flying out of your hands that people notice you are hitting them, I will admit instant whirlwind is a huge loss for Madness, and I think they should change it back. But the spec is still really good for PvP.

I think people tend to over-state the gap between classes/specs. I run a lot of warzones, and Sorcs and Sages don't seem gimped to me. I see lots of Sorcs and Sages topping damage charts and generally doing well in warzones. I don't have access to Bioware's metrics, but if Sorcs and Sages are so underpowered, I think it would be more noticeable.

.

It's not that we are underpowered by a lot. It's just that we get eaten alive by knights/warriors, PT/vanguard, and sin/shadow. Topping the damage charts is easy enough with tab dotting, but that does nothing to help your team. What truly matters is a combination of everything, except in hutball. If your team just won hutball in around 5min I can guarentee you the other team did more dmg by a long shot.

Besides hutball, you need a combination of damage, healing, protection, kills, and objective points. If you are very high in just one of those then you are ignoring everything else and harming your team. You can do all the damage in the world, but it means nothing if it doesn't lead to quick and decisive kills. You can spam heal your heart out, but it means nothing unless you are actually keeping your team alive. etc, etc

It's not that we are underpowered by a lot. It's just that we get eaten alive by knights/warriors, PT/vanguard, and sin/shadow. Topping the damage charts is easy enough with tab dotting, but that does nothing to help your team. What truly matters is a combination of everything, except in hutball. If your team just won hutball in around 5min I can guarentee you the other team did more dmg by a long shot.

Tab dotting absolutely helps your team in many situations. If you are defending or attacking a node in a large group, tab dotting helps your team tremendously, especially if you are hitting people with Death Field and deathmarking them. It's a lot easier to focus people down when they have a couple of dots on them. Dot damage counts like any other.

Obviously, ignoring objectives to pad damage stats isn't wise, but I've always found you get the most damage when you are actually playing for objectives, with the exception of Huttball at times.

As for specific matchups, I don't personally have much trouble with knights and warriors. Powertechs/Vanguards are the class that I tend to struggle against the most.

Yeah if this game was 1v1 only then you should only lose to assassins hybrids, extremely exceptional concealment operatives, and the occasional well geared powertech.

Assuming you are playing full madness you can even beat a sniper without los if you play it right. Even with superior range a sniper can be kited. When I'm playing a good sniper I dot them up and as soon as I see entrench I force speed away out of their 35 meter range and heal up. You cannot beat a sniper with entrech up and you cannot beat a good sniper's damage, but you make them waste entrench it if they chase after you to stop you from healing.

Regardless I hope some more changes in 2.0 help resolve some of full madness's problems. It is a fun spec, but lightning strike needs to be better for it to be an effective wrath option choice. As well full madness still needs a more reliable force regeneration mechanic and preferably to get its instant whirlwind back.

Tab dotting absolutely helps your team in many situations. If you are defending or attacking a node in a large group, tab dotting helps your team tremendously, especially if you are hitting people with Death Field and deathmarking them. It's a lot easier to focus people down when they have a couple of dots on them. Dot damage counts like any other.

 

Obviously, ignoring objectives to pad damage stats isn't wise, but I've always found you get the most damage when you are actually playing for objectives, with the exception of Huttball at times.

 

As for specific matchups, I don't personally have much trouble with knights and warriors. Powertechs/Vanguards are the class that I tend to struggle against the most.

I both agree and disagree with tab dotting, it comes down to the group you are running with though. By all means tab dotting does create pressure as well as side benefits. In full lightning I use tab dotting a little so I can switch to any target use thundering blast without the need for setup, and for hybrid dps and full lightning tab dotting can help you get your lightning barrage proc ever 10 seconds. Even in full madness tab dotting not only creates pressure but it helps your survivability through parasitism.

Even with this in mind, tab dotting the wrong targets can have bad side effects. More organized groups try to CC various targets in warzones. If you are fighting a skilled organized group, damage alone will not win you the game. Dots will obviously break most longer duration CCs and so it is important to recognize when Dot tabbing is and isn't a good idea.