I think they do have or at least had a premade matchmaking system.

I´m pretty sure it does. Things I have noticed it seems to do

- faction vs faction is preferred to same-faction matches

- premades vs premades before premades vs pugs. But if one faction is premading a lot more than the other, they will meet pugs from the other faction before premades from own faction)

Much worse now after F2P. Lots of noobs with no clue how to play against **** 40's premades=absolutely no fun. I'm an altaholic and I like my fun wzs so Bioware you need to kill grouping and split the pack at 35+ already. If you want to group go to ranked that's why it is there after you all begged for it and kept them from addressing other more pressing issues. Enough already the situation is just dumb.

QQ I want to get my highiest tier pve gear without having to do ops. This is an mmo go play a single player game. I do solo quing or with 1 other person so are 2 people a premade? I solo que and a good pug team will beat a premade or simply it comes down to a player quality that decides about the win. Bad pug teams will loose against good pug teams and nothing will change for qqers. Next thing they will want an "im bad at pvp bracket".

Doom I see what you are saying but some things are more obvious than others. In the real world you almost never fully know what your client wants but you make best guesses and go with it.

Gear gap is an issue for sure. However, gear gap is compouned by hardcore premades that play a lot since by their very nature they will have top end gear. So matchmaking would help this issue.

Many many many pugs complain all the time. This isn't some hard statistic but come on we play the same game. You know this is the case lol. Matchmaking would help this since the most often heard pvp complaints appear to be related to premades and gear.

In mmos there are more casuals that super hardcores and also mmo players are often not the most social of us humans lol. This is also pretty obvious. Matchmaking helps this since they don't have to be hardcore or social.

Also, many long term pvprs say the softcap to skill is pretty low in this game. There is still a way to show you are better since I said softcap (good example is my vguard that is extremely easy, even in a pug setting, to play to the softcap but there is a reason why my Assault vguard usually has more protection than tank spec'd ones while still having highest dmg and kbs) but with a low softcap it means that premades with gear can be major threats even if they are bad players. Matchmaking would help this since it would take this advantage away.

Composition is a huge factor in this game. I like this, however when it is pug v proper composition premade then ouch. I know you can say pugs will have different compositions but really composition mainly matters in a premade setting where there is good commmunication. Matchmaking would help this.

This is a 2 faction game and we all know the problems with this. On different servers at different times of the day one side will have more premades than the other. A matchmaking system with diff faction teams when necessary would help this.

Also, all of us longterm mmo'rs know the ragequit. All of us have done it at least once at some point if we have played long enough. Loss after loss after loss can cause this and they may or may not come back.

All I want soon is a SIMPLE matchmaking system. It should not be that hard.

Although I did say last month that if they didn't do this before many ftp's hit 50 (or came back on their 50s) then this game's pvp would be in trouble and sadly it might be too late for pvp subscriber growth. I hope I'm wrong there.

Doom I see what you are saying but some things are more obvious than others. In the real world you almost never fully know what your client wants but you make best guesses and go with it.

 

...

=P Raika, I've been agreement with you this almost this whole time. That was a response to someone else who wanted to pull the "Let's just try this for a little while, what can it hurt?" argument.

Like I said in my post I'm all for matchmaking. By all means try it, I'd prefer a balanced matchmaking system over queue separation any day.

 

But see the problem is that the kind of matchmaking system we want is a long term goal. It is an incredibly complex technology that has to measure lots of different statistics and provide safeguards for the innumerable ways people will try to circumvent the system. It requires a ton of development, loads of money and innumerable hours of refining at best! Will it benefit the players in the long time? Hell yeah! Will people be actually around to benefit from the system when it is finally (if ever) implemented? Uhm...no...most of them won't be. It will be too late by then.

 

Queue separation is very simple. It only measures one factor, whether someone presses the "Solo" or "Group" button. It is something that we can implement right now (or in the very near future)! It is not nearly as complex as match making. It is (and should be) a reasonable interim solution but are interim solutions not preferable to losing people?

 

And make no mistake this game is leaking subs like a rusty barrel leaks oil. I have talked to about two dozen people who returned to the game and jumped back into lvl50 PvP with their characters. Guess what, most of them are not having fun for the reasons we listed in over 85 pages. They came, played, lost, lost. lost, lost and lost again and left. Bang. So much for their PvP experience. First impressions are extremely important when judging something and right now PvP first impression is about as bad as they can get.

 

So yeah I'd love to see matchmaking implemented in the long run. But I'd also love to see more people actually like PvP and stick around RIGHT NOW. Queue separation is really simple and I see absolutely no reason why couldn't give it a go.

 

We need to make people stick around and queue separation is the right now the only thing that could achieve that.

 

too TL;DR?

Well said, and this is putting it lightly. There are an abundant amount of problems left unmentioned with the current system, most long term fixes but queue separation as you mention is simple, quick, and easy and will go a long way into welcoming players into PvP instead of repelling them.

<.< Well since you didn't bother to tell me which part you were "debunking" I really have no idea what you're refering to, other then your usual babble.

 

Fact: Takes more effort to field 2 people than 1. It also takes more effort to field 4 people than 1.

Fact: Effort Influences rewards.

Fact: The less effort you give, the less you should be rewarded.

 

Seems pretty simple?

Try telling that to the massive amounts of people leaving the game because it simply isn't fun, balanced and sadly not even competitive. You and your special cupcakes will then be left to guess what... Play against each other. (Premade Vs Premade)

I'm not exactly sure why you have such a vendetta to keep Premades Vs Pugs, it holds absolutely no fruit for either side unless you have a hard on for rofl stomping pugs, which would make too much sense. If you truly support competition, you would gladly embrace anything that streamlines and better supports Premade Vs Premade play, but this apparently doesn't seem to be the case with those of you claiming for one excuse or another that Premades Vs Pugs is fine (It's not). Judging by your posts it is hard to argue that your "long queue" excuse is anything but a pretense to rofl stomp pugs, and it is a weak excuse at that. Sorry but no, if done right, premades would be pushed into Ranked, which is were they belong and should be all along. Ranked should be modified, I'll admit and give you that it's fairly dysfunctional as is but the simple fact is Premades don't belong in the same Warzones as Pugs.

We are left in a terrible position since we neither have an adequate matchmaking system nor cross realm queues, neither side wins, at the very least a higher emphasis needs to be placed on groups facing other groups. Ideally and a long term solution as we have mentioned and agreed would be proper matchmaking, cross realm to support a more robust pool of players and eventually the phasing out of Premade Vs Pug altogether, it would no longer be necessary nor wise to keep around, as is it punishes players to play on their own, this may be an MMO but that doesn't mean it should tell you and force you to play the game the way it wants you to play, that is a recipe for poor game design and one that is destined to fail. For whatever reason, a group isn't always available, punishing your playerbase for wanting to play your game outside of these inconvenient times will not encourage them to continue playing your game.

Take a look at some of the most population dense and successful games out there, I may not like them nor support them but they are successful and have millions of millions of subs for a reason, I am not saying this is the only reason but it is among the top; very few if any of them force Premade Vs Pug play on the player, they leave it as an option to the player when he/she feels ready for the competition and challenge. Force feeding your players with a frustrating experience and saying, "There, that is your playground, eat it and deal with it." Is not a very good business model nor one with much longevity.

Lastly I leave you with this question: Why would a game continue to support a clearly dysfunctional system which not only fails at it's task but effectively repels players, and is viciously unforgiving to new players just stepping into the arena and experiencing PvP for the first time. These players not only do not have the motive, nor the knowledge or social experience in the game to be consciously malicious, lazy or otherwise capable of the many other lies and slander you use to describe players that for whatever reason Solo queue. This system not only appeases a small portion of the player base (Premades) but manages to frustrate an alarmingly vast portion of the remaining playerbase (Pugs). Why, why in god's green earth would a game continue to support a system that repels it's own players from it's content?

Well said, and this is putting it lightly. There are an abundant amount of problems left unmentioned with the current system, most long term fixes but queue separation as you mention is simple, quick, and easy and will go a long way into welcoming players into PvP instead of repelling them.

 

 

 

Try telling that to the massive amounts of people leaving the game because it simply isn't fun, balanced and sadly not even competitive. You and your special cupcakes will then be left to guess what... Play against each other. (Premade Vs Premade)

 

I'm not exactly sure why you have such a vendetta to keep Premades Vs Pugs, it holds absolutely no fruit for either side unless you have a hard on for rofl stomping pugs, which would make too much sense. If you truly support competition, you would gladly embrace anything that streamlines and better supports Premade Vs Premade play, but this apparently doesn't seem to be the case with those of you claiming for one excuse or another that Premades Vs Pugs is fine (It's not). Judging by your posts it is hard to argue that your "long queue" excuse is anything but a pretense to rofl stomp pugs, and it is a weak excuse at that. Sorry but no, if done right, premades would be pushed into Ranked, which is were they belong and should be all along. Ranked should be modified, I'll admit and give you that it's fairly dysfunctional as is but the simple fact is Premades don't belong in the same Warzones as Pugs.

 

We are left in a terrible position since we neither have an adequate matchmaking system nor cross realm queues, neither side wins, at the very least a higher emphasis needs to be placed on groups facing other groups. Ideally and a long term solution as we have mentioned and agreed would be proper matchmaking, cross realm to support a more robust pool of players and eventually the phasing out of Premade Vs Pug altogether, it would no longer be necessary nor wise to keep around, as is it punishes players to play on their own, this may be an MMO but that doesn't mean it should tell you and force you to play the game the way it wants you to play, that is a recipe for poor game design and one that is destined to fail. For whatever reason, a group isn't always available, punishing your playerbase for wanting to play your game outside of these inconvenient times will not encourage them to continue playing your game.

 

Take a look at some of the most population dense and successful games out there, I may not like them nor support them but they are successful and have millions of millions of subs for a reason, I am not saying this is the only reason but it is among the top; very few if any of them force Premade Vs Pug play on the player, they leave it as an option to the player when he/she feels ready for the competition and challenge. Force feeding your players with a frustrating experience and saying, "There, that is your playground, eat it and deal with it." Is not a very good business model nor one with much longevity.

 

Lastly I leave you with this question: Why would a game continue to support a clearly dysfunctional system which not only fails at it's task but effectively repels players, and is viciously unforgiving to new players just stepping into the arena and experiencing PvP for the first time. These players not only do not have the motive, nor the knowledge or social experience in the game to be consciously malicious, lazy or otherwise capable of the many other lies and slander you use to describe players that for whatever reason Solo queue. This system not only appeases a small portion of the player base (Premades) but manages to frustrate an alarmingly vast portion of the remaining playerbase (Pugs). Why, why in god's green earth would a game continue to support a system that repels it's own players from it's content?

If premades were such a small portion of the player base, presumably you wouldn't encounter them very often. Problem solved.

I'm not exactly sure why you have such a vendetta to keep Premades Vs Pugs

We would like que times to stay low for both premades and pugs. That is our "vendetta" Such a terrible despicable goal I know.

I would love the better competition of premade v premade every match.... if you could give it to me within 2 minutes of queuing. I don't believe SWTOR can so I like most other "premaders" would rather be able to play than wait in a que that takes half an hour to pop. The seperate que idea would just turn the premade que into something almost as bad as the rwz que, AND it would make the solo que almost as bad if not as bad as lowbies.

Premades are ruining rated warzones.

Yeah I said it.

We would like que times to stay low for both premades and pugs. That is our "vendetta" Such a terrible despicable goal I know.

 

I would love the better competition of premade v premade every match.... if you could give it to me within 2 minutes of queuing. I don't believe SWTOR can so I like most other "premaders" would rather be able to play than wait in a que that takes half an hour to pop. The seperate que idea would just turn the premade que into something almost as bad as the rwz que, AND it would make the solo que almost as bad if not as bad as lowbies.

And to echo and expand on Asuna's point here...

Premades, or PVP guilds for that matter, don't have a "vendetta". Neither do they/we maliciously roflstomp pugs laughing manically in vent while we torture midgets with our free time between spawns.

You have a large group of players. 100% of them want to win. Mathematically only 50% of them ever will. The "good" players find another 3 people they know are good, group with them, to maximize their chance to win. The "bad" players respond by saying "I want a system in place that ensures I only have to play against 1 good player, instead of 4 per match."

One method involves players taking action to maximize their success. The other method invloves people taking no action themselves, and asking everyone else to adjust to minimize their personal chance at failure.

I don't want subs to go down, or queue times to go up, any more than anybody else, but my sympathy isn't going to make bad players good. And until bad players get good, they are going to lose games. And they are either going to be frustrated by playing the game, or quit playing.

Lastly I leave you with this question: Why would a game continue to support a clearly dysfunctional system which not only fails at it's task but effectively repels players, and is viciously unforgiving to new players just stepping into the arena and experiencing PvP for the first time. These players not only do not have the motive, nor the knowledge or social experience in the game to be consciously malicious, lazy or otherwise capable of the many other lies and slander you use to describe players that for whatever reason Solo queue. This system not only appeases a small portion of the player base (Premades) but manages to frustrate an alarmingly vast portion of the remaining playerbase (Pugs). Why, why in god's green earth would a game continue to support a system that repels it's own players from it's content?

=P it wouldn't, that would be a terrible idea.

*Sigh* I wish people would actually read what I've said (all of it) before spouting off stupidity. I am all for a proper matchmaking system. If there are 4 premades in queue within 5-10 minutes or so of each other, the game should match them together. If there is some measurable statistic of skill (maybe valor rank, even though that can be raised just by grinding) then the game should try and pit Valor 100 vs. Valor 100. If There is a Valor 80, a Valor 70, and a Valor 50 int eh queue, it should put the Valor 80 and Valor 50 together, then the V70 with the V60. Etc... I totally think the system should wait a -little while- to match people on some criteria rather than throwing the first 16 eligible people into a match.

My issue has come down to the split queue, which literally solves very few of the overal issues with PvP. It will not solve gear-gap issues, it will not solve composition issues, general skill level issues, etc... It targets one thing that we (as players) really have no idea how it's effecting the general population. It also could possible cause several negative side effects for such few potential gains (Longer queue's, dead group queue, promoting solo-ism in an MMO, Lowering skill required for success... etc...). As I said to the other person, I do not feel Bioware can afford to make any more risky fixes (especially given their track record).

We as players do not have the information to make a determination whether a risky venture like a split queue would work well for ToR's target audience, population, and system, and the potential negatives are just as bad (if not worse) than the potential benefits.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

But lemme sum up -my- position so I will hopefully stop hearing assumptions and accusations on where I stand. if you look back through the posts here, you'll find I've had the same overal message/points.

1. I believe this game needs cross server queue'ing.

2. I believe this game needs proper matchmaking, basing on group size and/or general overall valor. I say Valor because while it's no indication of personal skill, it should be an indication of progression. I doubt you'd find a valor 80 without full WH.

3. I believe players should be more responsible for their own level of effort, and strive to achieve rather than blame others for their choices.

Simple, no?

okay, so lets just pretend that pugs are given their own warzone bracket, for solo-queuing only.

now, what happens when the group queue is dead, and instead of forming a group and queuing together, 4 players simply queue up simultaneously, funnel down the queue for a bit until they have a really good chance of getting in together, and then all make it into the same pug bracket match?

this is already do-able with 2 4 man teams, to make a full 8 man premade in non-ranked. it just takes some patience for the first warzone (to funnel down the queue a bit) and some coordination.

so that is my question. what happens when "organized teams" start appearing in the solo-queue only bracket?

Ya doom I agree with you. My earlier post wasn't trying to argue with you just to make a point.

Criminal. I guess you are a jug or mara with good gear who premades a lot. You may be good or may not be it doesn't matter if that is the case. The softcap to those classes is low even in a pug and in a premade it is pretty much nonexistent. Your healer should keep you up with your cds and you should have near 100% melee uptime even as a mediocre player.

If you have another of your spec with same gear and same premade then you can still show who is better but as far as most of your matches go even a bad player of your class and gear in a decent premade would be a major threat. Don't kid yourself. From your response it seems you are not like doom. Doom wants even matches. You want to keep thinking you are a good player and not face that it may or may not be true.

Bioware, we awaiting your response. This is REAL problem for plenty solo players.

Or you will be continue ignoring community?

I would love the better competition of premade v premade every match.... if you could give it to me within 2 minutes of queuing.

I don't know what server your on but even solo que takes a bit longer then 2mins. If how it is doesn't meet your "standard" then nothing will, so your point is invalid....

Cash, most of us want matching not solo only. I'm just trying to convince the few solo only holdouts that its a bad idea.

Inaccurate...

On the forums it's about 50/50 on a solo que/group que, or keep the ques how they are. In game the % follows the avg player who is more of a PUGer.

so that is my question. what happens when "organized teams" start appearing in the solo-queue only bracket?

That would be up to BW to "tweak" the matchmaker so people don't exploit this.

Ideas of the top of my head:

- Guildies starting to queue within a certain time frame gets randomly "delayed" on an individual basis. Not fair, but neither are potentiel attempt to circumvent the queue system

- Guildies gets put on different teams if same faction match.

Et cetera et cetera.

I don't know what server your on but even solo que takes a bit longer then 2mins. If how it is doesn't meet your "standard" then nothing will, so your point is invalid....

Harbinger. How it currently is meets my "standard" just fine, though as I said I would prefer more premade v premade matches if I could get them without decreasing my total % of time in wz. Again I don't believe BW can do that without cross server ques.

The 2 minute number came from how often I believe the matchmaking system tries to put matches together, but nice fallacy there. If you prefer for the sake of semantics the wait could be 5 minutes instead of 2 that doesn't change the point in the slightest. The problem is when it gets over 5 minutes people decide it isn't worth it, stop queing, and then the que becomes half an hour or longer. All so solo quers can get a bracket that would be almost as bad as lowbies.

Harbinger. How it currently is meets my "standard" just fine, though as I said I would prefer more premade v premade matches if I could get them without decreasing my total % of time in wz. Again I don't believe BW can do that without cross server ques.

 

The 2 minute number came from how often I believe the matchmaking system tries to put matches together, but nice fallacy there. If you prefer for the sake of semantics the wait could be 5 minutes instead of 2 that doesn't change the point in the slightest. The problem is when it gets over 5 minutes people decide it isn't worth it, stop queing, and then the que becomes half an hour or longer. All so solo quers can get a bracket that would be almost as bad as lowbies.

Without some kind of statistics to back up facts you can only speculate what the que's would be like. Hardcore people that make up the premades play all the time. That's what makes them "hardcore" or "elite" I highly doubt if there was a premade que (and don't say ranked because that requires two full 8 man premade teams) That the que would go from 15mins (15 is about the max I have to wait even on completely off hours) to an hour. I do not believe the ques would go to the extreme everyone believes because of their experience with ranked WZ's.

Bioware, we awaiting your response. This is REAL problem for plenty solo players.

 

Or you will be continue ignoring community?

well we are on 90 pages and 28 thousands views already. Which one do you think we will hit first without a bioware response? 100 pages or 30.000 views?

I think they are acutely aware of the problem that something or (should i say) many things are wrong with their PvP system but they just don't have anything to say because they can't/don't want to do anything.

Muram your response was ignorant of this thread. Its fine but it is.

My point was that many of us talking on this thread want a matchmaking system.

There is major MAJOR contention between the current system and a solo q only / group q only system.

There is less fighting when it comes to making a matchmaking system.

I don't want the system to stay as is. I want a simple matchmaking system that tries to match premades for a few minutes and also allows for mixed faction teams (would help premade matching and would help stop people from gaming the system).

My goal is to get people asking for a solo only q to realize the futility of their attempts and to realize that even a simple matchmaking system including mixed faction teams would make thier pvp experience much much better.

If many of us can get behind one idea then maybe the devs will maybe notice us. However, arguing as we are there really isn't anything the devs would do even if they were watching this thread (not holding my breath lol).

<.< Well since you didn't bother to tell me which part you were "debunking" I really have no idea what you're refering to, other then your usual babble.

 

Fact: Takes more effort to field 2 people than 1. It also takes more effort to field 4 people than 1.

Fact: Effort Influences rewards.

Fact: The less effort you give, the less you should be rewarded.

 

Seems pretty simple?

Or just put in a solo bracket and hit one button.

Seems pretty simple.

=P it wouldn't, that would be a terrible idea.

 

*Sigh* I wish people would actually read what I've said (all of it) before spouting off stupidity. I am all for a proper matchmaking system. If there are 4 premades in queue within 5-10 minutes or so of each other, the game should match them together. If there is some measurable statistic of skill (maybe valor rank, even though that can be raised just by grinding) then the game should try and pit Valor 100 vs. Valor 100. If There is a Valor 80, a Valor 70, and a Valor 50 int eh queue, it should put the Valor 80 and Valor 50 together, then the V70 with the V60. Etc... I totally think the system should wait a -little while- to match people on some criteria rather than throwing the first 16 eligible people into a match.

 

My issue has come down to the split queue, which literally solves very few of the overal issues with PvP. It will not solve gear-gap issues, it will not solve composition issues, general skill level issues, etc... It targets one thing that we (as players) really have no idea how it's effecting the general population. It also could possible cause several negative side effects for such few potential gains (Longer queue's, dead group queue, promoting solo-ism in an MMO, Lowering skill required for success... etc...). As I said to the other person, I do not feel Bioware can afford to make any more risky fixes (especially given their track record).

 

We as players do not have the information to make a determination whether a risky venture like a split queue would work well for ToR's target audience, population, and system, and the potential negatives are just as bad (if not worse) than the potential benefits.

 

 

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

But lemme sum up -my- position so I will hopefully stop hearing assumptions and accusations on where I stand. if you look back through the posts here, you'll find I've had the same overal message/points.

 

1. I believe this game needs cross server queue'ing.

2. I believe this game needs proper matchmaking, basing on group size and/or general overall valor. I say Valor because while it's no indication of personal skill, it should be an indication of progression. I doubt you'd find a valor 80 without full WH.

3. I believe players should be more responsible for their own level of effort, and strive to achieve rather than blame others for their choices.

 

Simple, no?

The thing is, we have evidence PVP is dieing due to the clear lack and struggle(you admit to having as well) to gather a ranked pvp match. Ranked pvp been around for quite a bit now, nothing has changed...actually I take that back, it's gotten worse. You are offering a solution that changes nothing but label it as "matchmaking" when it's really just Premade vs Pug v2.

I'm sorry I had to open your mind to that fact but I felt it needed to be said before you kept repeating a bad suggestion.

Solo queue bracket will bring more people into PVP thus more potential competition to group pvp. Current system doesn't welcome new people to PVP at all, so you are stuck with the same groups, whom will probably get bored and leave. It's just glaringly obvious how much this would work, but I admit would only truly work with cross server queue's in place.

Inaccurate...

 

On the forums it's about 50/50 on a solo que/group que, or keep the ques how they are. In game the % follows the avg player who is more of a PUGer.

Honestly you don't even need to go by the forums for data. You can see how things are on the servers themselves. Ranked pvp is a myth, why? No new blood, No new people queueing up, Therefore no new teams forming up. Current system draws people away from PVP rather than bring them in.

Unless you like fighting the same 2 or 3 teams over and over.