Easier said than done. Ok, i'm a vanguard, I can chain interrupt / pull / leap / CC one sorc. Fine. But ohh wait. When there's 3-4 Sorcs spamming lightning, and 2 sorcs healing what am I supposed to do ? Tell me how would you counter a team of 6 Sorc hybrids and 2 tanks swapping guard around ?

2 tanks, 4 dps, 2 healers is a pretty optimal setup, you could replace those sorcs with pretty much any, in fact this would be much easier to kill than say replacing them with mercs, because if you had say 2 snipers, you could kill one of the sorcs so fast that the tank wouldnt have time to protect them, they're actually the easiest class to take down with a really high coordinated burst, and they lack the ability to retaliate with such a burst themselves (hence why they have such strong crowd control....)

It's trying to kill them with sustained damage that is hell, because of their utility abilities.

Pug war zones just lack proper coordination 95% of the time.

I went in a WZ yesterday full of vangaurds on my team (we had 6, and 2 random non-healing DPS). We LOST.

 

Vanguards don't heal. Guards don't stack. Vanguards have weak single target damage, they pad damage stats with some potent AOEs.

 

Vanguard is still a very good class, on par with shadow / guardian, from my PoV. All three tanks are powerful in the right hands. But they'll never be a game changer like Sorc / sage hybrids. 6 Sorcs / sages hybrids + 2 tanks is pure WIN.

 

QQing about vanguards really... hmmm, from my experience, vanguards need heals to really shine, preferably from a sage.

L2P.

6 vanguards. lol. 6 high impact bolts that eeach crit 4+k, procs flying...., 6 plasma, 6 dots...most of that is elemental damage...

Men, it would be: pull -> kill

pull -> kill

pull ->kill

.....

in short order. Escpecially sorcs, most squishy class.

2 tanks, 4 dps, 2 healers is a pretty optimal setup, you could replace those sorcs with pretty much any, in fact this would be much easier to kill than say replacing them with mercs, because if you had say 2 snipers, you could kill one of the sorcs so fast that the tank wouldnt have time to protect them, they're actually the easiest class to take down with a really high coordinated burst, and they lack the ability to retaliate with such a burst themselves (hence why they have such strong crowd control....)

 

It's trying to kill them with sustained damage that is hell, because of their utility abilities.

 

Pug war zones just lack proper coordination 95% of the time.

That's exactly where lies the imbalance. I imagine the 6 inquisitors / 2 randoms groups I end up playing against have a 4man premade in them, there is simply no other counter than another premade.

But I do think a guarded healing sage / sorc is more beneficial to a premade group than a healing commando / merc or scoundrel / operative, because they have better CC and can heal a group much better.

As for RDPS, a sorc / sage is also better compared to commando / merc and gunslinger / sniper, because, once again, they have more CC and survival tools. Commando / merc is so easy to shutdown and sniper / gunslinger seem to just not have enough DPS (some actually rock, but I get more DPS and deathblows on my SHIELD SPECC vanguard in most matches). And all those 4 ACs have terrible mobility and good tanks / melee DPS will simply take advantage of that. Sage / sorc can usually stun you and force speed away out of LoS and if you follow them you can end up caught deep in ennemy lines. And position is key to success in this game. Mobility WINS. Classes that lacks such perks are at a big disadvantage.

L2P.

 

6 vanguards. lol. 6 high impact bolts that eeach crit 4+k, procs flying...., 6 plasma, 6 dots...most of that is elemental damage...

 

Men, it would be: pull -> kill

pull -> kill

pull ->kill

.....

 

in short order. Escpecially sorcs, most squishy class.

Dosen't really work, especially since a single Sorc / sage can stunlock half those mighty troopers / BHs and kill the others. Multiple classes with a mez vs multiple classes without ? How can you not wipe the floor with them. I know, I lost that fight when we had 6 vanguards and no heals.

Like i said, 6 vanguards / powertechs is NOTHING comparable to 6 sorc / sages WZs. They don't heal, don't bubble, guard can't stack, they don't have enough DPS. They eventually die because they're helpless without heals. And you think powertech / vanguard's damage is all elemental ? What the heck are you smoking ? HiB is white damage (bypass armor and extra crit dmg I know, but only for ASSAULT spec, but what's the point rolling a vanguard to play the SHARED tree spec, while you'd do better assault spec as a commando for the self heals / AoE punt instead of pull / taunts, and in assault spec you're a pure RDPS, and vanguard abilities are mostly melee), most other abilities are tech / kinetic.

Believe whatever you want though, that's mild entertainment. When they give Vanguard self heals and mez, I'll gladly say they're OP though. Right now, i believe that, no, they aren't.

Are we really arguing that 6 non-self healing classes without a mez would be better than 6 self healing classes all with multiple stun / mez vs the others with nothing but the 4s stun ?

L2 theorycraft baddie

Sorcerer/Sage is OP, everyone knows it. The only people that say otherwise play a Sorcerer/Sage, which also happens to be 50% of the population now.

the truth squirted out.. quick quick push it back in!

L2P.

 

6 vanguards. lol. 6 high impact bolts that eeach crit 4+k, procs flying...., 6 plasma, 6 dots...most of that is elemental damage...

 

Men, it would be: pull -> kill

pull -> kill

pull ->kill

.....

 

in short order. Escpecially sorcs, most squishy class.

I'm Champion geared as a Vanguard and I'm lucky if my Hi-Impact Bolt crits for 3k. The only way they'd crit for 4k is if they're pure Assault/Pyro spec, in which case they probably have the worst survivability out of any class. Heavy Armor without Ion Cell is only in the 28-31% kinetic/energy damage reduction range, and the only defensive cooldown they get is Reactive Shield. They can easily be kited, and still rely heavily on being at melee range.

I'd definitely put money on 6 Sorc over any other class.

The other team is perma-snared, if you focus one Sorc, they can AoE blind everyone and run, or AoE root everyone and run, while getting spam-healed by their team.

If I play Voidstar and the other team has 5-6 Sorcs I'll just leave immediately. Even if they put in a Deserter Debuff I'd still do it.

Either we have a really really slow win that is annoying as hell to play, or we have a really really slow loss that is annoying as hell to play.

Gunnery Commando LatinLegacy/ Madness Sorcerer DarkLegacy

Server: The Shadowlands

PvP Experience. Well over 500 matches so far

Level 55 Valor on the Commando, 42 on the Sorcerer

Force Lightning - Most powerful ability in the game per tick once you hit level 50 & learned the supporting skills for it down the Madness tree. A decent well geared PvP player of any republic class will either die or suffer heavy damage in a 1 vs 1 if I am just using this one move, over & over & over & over. All I have to do is pop my shield which is usually twice per 1 on 1 battle or dot the hell out of them prior to the Force Lightning Spam.

Shield - With the recent surge nerf, a lot of classes that use to hit Sorcerers/Sages hard no longer do which, increased the survivability of both Sages & Sorcs. In a 1 vs 1, it takes DPS classes 2 extra hits to drop me now prior to the surge nerf where I would go down fast if a few 4K+ crits hit. Haven't been hit for 4K+ crit since the surge nerf & 3.3K was the hardest I've seen after the nerf went live. So in the end, my shield also stays up a tad bit longer. In PvP, every second counts.

Force Speed - I'll be fair, this is an unfair ability for any class to have. I've popped this plenty of times to get out of trouble & unless the player is able to force leap or pull me. I could drop a big heal or two before the 1 on 1 would continue. I also usually pop a shield after healing as well if it was ready. So in a sense I would heal anywhere from 6 - 8K in health & pop a shield. Would pop a warzone stim as well if that was at the ready. Bringing me to near full health within a 4+ second window .

Tree Balancing - This one pisses off a lot of people. Sorcs & Sages have a nice skill sitting at the very bottom of our trees. For the Sorcs, that skill is called Calcify. With 3 points placed into this skill, the base damage of force lightning goes up by 12%. To my knowledge, this is the biggest boost of any skill of any class in the entire game. It doesn't help that within that same tree, Madness, we get Disintegration ( Increase Critical Strike Chance of Force Lighting by 10%) & Madness ( Force Lighting has no cooldown). This is also before stims, trinkets, gear bonuses, other class buffs, etc. If you're wondering why we spam Force Lighting the way we do, you now know why .

I can go into the other builds & point out what makes them overpowered but what I mentioned above are the primary reasons why people say Sorcs are OP & to be honest, yes we are. I'll enjoy it while we have it because it's only a matter of time before Sorcerers see a huge nerf that will really knock the class on its ***.

-LatinLegacy

Force Speed - I'll be fair, this is an unfair ability for any class to have. I've popped this plenty of times to get out of trouble & unless the player is able to force leap or pull me. I could drop a big heal or two before the 1 on 1 would continue. I also usually pop a shield after healing as well if it was ready. So in a sense I would heal anywhere from 6 - 8K in health & pop a shield. Would pop a warzone stim as well if that was at the ready. Bringing me to near full health within a 4+ second window .

Indeed, this necessity for an Assassin gives the Sorc a rather powerful tool, perhaps removing it from Sorcs might be an answer.

You know this game promotes having multiple characters right? A whole LEGACY of them....

QQ less and roll a sorc/sage/sin like me. Guess what? I still go back to my Jugg and my PT - but armed with much more insight into how to handle said OP classes.

You know this game promotes having multiple characters right? A whole LEGACY of them....

 

QQ less and roll a sorc/sage/sin like me. Guess what? I still go back to my Jugg and my PT - but armed with much more insight into how to handle said OP classes.

A class is OP so let's all roll it? That's good logic. That explains why there's 5+ Sorcs in half the warzones I play.

best thread ever....rofl

yeah nerf sage/sorc

Out of almost any mmo I've played Sorc/Sage are probably the most unbalanced thing I've ever seen in any game. Massive sustained damage, great survivability, great escape moves, heals, they basically have everything.

I've said it before, If you think Sorc/Sage is the most unbalanced thing you've played against, you clearly didn't play DAOC/Warhammer/Rift at any point.

Bright Wizard makes Sorc/Sages look like a joke..

Oh look, You're a flag carrier, let me throw playing with fire on you, and kill everyone of your healers at once..

Oh look, its a Pyromancer in Rift, let me just one shot you and your healer then fireball down the rest of your team.

DAOC? Hey.. I see you're hiding behind a wall, let me get on my banshee and Cone AOE through the wall and kill you and your entire defense.

Or you're above me? Not a problem, let me cone aoe through the floor and kill you all..

A class is OP so let's all roll it? That's good logic. That explains why there's 5+ Sorcs in half the warzones I play.

There actually is some logic to it. In the abscence of good balance it means some classes are gimped or outright out-gunned. Or it could be even a spec of a class.

So, instead of waiting for the Devs to finally acknowledge it and then waiting for the nerf(s) they 'join' up and get on the bandwagon. This can serve multiple purposes; One, when the metrics are taken and they can see that X% of the population is Y class, then they're that much more 'forced' into reviewing why the imbalance exists. Secondly, the folks that like to pvp do not have to suffer uphill battles for the majority of their pvp play.

Now most certainly you'll have the crowd that rolls for the FOTM aspect and to just have an advantage, but, what happens when the WZ is full of the same OP class? Then the inherent advantage of using the OP class is gone and it's just skill vs. skill. Granted, that happens rarely most likely but the point is still valid.

Now I'm not one to roll FOTM, but when you have long cycles for changes and lack of acknowledgement from the Devs about OP classes (hello Mages in WOW) I can see why some people do it. I rolled my lock for 4 years up and down the nerf rollercoaster, hell if there was a patch that DIDN'T have a lock nerf in it, most of us sighed in relief, but meanwhile other classes have gone on for long periods of time before 'adjusted'.

Anyone that pvp's for any period of time would probably agree the Devs should be working closer with the community (absent separating pve from pvp) so that they can be more up to date with 'clever uses of game/class mechanics' that pvpers use. I think most would agree when a class is OP in PVE, they're on top of it in a flash, but when it comes to PVP, it's like ACK what do we do?!

So yea... everyone roll a Sorcerer/Sage and then when the forums are filled with posts like these where entire WZ's are filled with one class, you'll see quicker action (hopefully). The majority of us want our niche, dps output with some control; a lot of control with some dps, good healing and manueverability, etc. etc... and that's what they're tasked with doing, BALANCING that. I realize like most its not an easy thing to do, but they've taken on that job, it's up to them to do it; whatever we can do to nudge 'em along is fine with me after coming from that other MMO where blatant PVP OPness lasted for entire expansions for some and some get hot-fixed nerfed in 24 hours or less. We don't need to see anymore of that.

To add to the above about everyone rolling sage/sorc - Remember that this game encourages you to make and play with multiple characters. I do most of my PVE content with my jugg and PT and will likely just have fun with my sage in PVP. It looks like fun so why not roll a pvp sage/sorc along with everyone else. at least if we are all the same, the matches are a lot closer and more intense, more balanced, and more reliant on skill.

The bonus is when the metrics reveal an 80% preference for the sage class. or when awesome youtube videos of 3-4man sorc teams in HMs and 8 man sorc teams downing NM soa. Though the same could probably be done with BH/troopers, it'd be thrice as hard without that AOE heal/bubble

I've said it before, If you think Sorc/Sage is the most unbalanced thing you've played against, you clearly didn't play DAOC/Warhammer/Rift at any point.

 

Bright Wizard makes Sorc/Sages look like a joke..

 

Oh look, You're a flag carrier, let me throw playing with fire on you, and kill everyone of your healers at once..

 

Oh look, its a Pyromancer in Rift, let me just one shot you and your healer then fireball down the rest of your team.

 

DAOC? Hey.. I see you're hiding behind a wall, let me get on my banshee and Cone AOE through the wall and kill you and your entire defense.

 

Or you're above me? Not a problem, let me cone aoe through the floor and kill you all..

And all those examples of EPIC FAIL make Sages / Sorc not OP ?

Different games, different imbalances, different things needs to be done. Comparing apples and oranges is cool yo !

Ha, Everyone complains about sorc. If you went against a team of 5 bh's trust me you would be crying here even more.

Yup people complain about everything. Unless they are winning then they dont lol.... wierd?

We were getting served last night for almost the whole night, and I can tell you that crew of BMasters were not sorc. They were IA and SW and they were taking no prisoners lol

Edit: I really hope we are talking about lvl50 pvp here. If not then uh yea it may be unbalanced since there will be different lvl ranges and talent differences.

If sages/sorc are racking up huge numbers its because you let them. Some matches I do great, some I get suppressed, lets me know who knows what they are doing and who is there to "check out the pvp".

Sorc/sage r insanely weak they just a tool used to help other classes(aka support class)

I've had games where Sorc/Sage had 400-600k damage, or 400-600k healing, so... yeah.

For pre lvl50 brackets i understand the sorc rage ... we get our skills way to early in comparison to other classes. It's almost laughable how fast a pinned down sorc dies.

Here my opinion on the performance of the different specs:

Dps Sorc in lvl50 bracket vs people with good gear == fatal death of the sorc (1on1)

Sorc damage comes from aoe attacks. In a 1vs1 a sorc simply can't deal as much damage as most dps specced classes and will lose the dps race. (if you let a sorc kite you, it's your own fault)

Heal Hybrids: stop crying about those, they can't maintain the pace they use their skills for long. They have nearly no way to regain force as fast as they throw it out of the window. AND this spec will disapear once force bending is fixed, simply because without it you can't heal yourself fast enough to avoid death in this spec.

Healer Specs:

Be happy about the highest damage you will ever do against anyone in this game.

They may survive a time but be pinned down while healing themselfs and practically shout for everyone to jump on them and wipe the floor with the sorc.

Plus a healer that heals himself is useless for the team.

The only thing a sorc realy excells is escape mechanics ... and 90% of those are useless in any warzone other than hutball.

Hutball is the only place where you have a way to break line of sight every few steps.

Even the worst meele should be able to stay on a sorc in the other warzones.

Edit:

And please please please stop using the stupid damage chart at the end of a warzone as indicator how overpowered a class is.

AoE Damage == high numbers in total but very little effect on the players that got hit.

I've had games where Sorc/Sage had 400-600k damage, or 400-600k healing, so... yeah.

I've had games where mercs/comm have had 400-600k damage or 400-600k healing, so ... yeah.

I've had games where op/scoun have had 400-600k damage or 400-600k healing, so ... yeah.

I've had games where mercs/comm have had 400-600k damage or 400-600k healing, so ... yeah.

 

I've had games where op/scoun have had 400-600k damage or 400-600k healing, so ... yeah.

And? That means that Mercs and Ops aren't "insanely weak". I was responding to the comment that Sorc/Sage are "insanely weak" outside of having some utility. Being able to do that much damage and/or healing shows they're obviously not.

Also, I haven't ever seen a merc break 450k in either category since they changed the bracket setup. Never seen an Operative break 400k healing.... ever. Operatives also rarely even break 300k damage now after their nerfs.