Any madness assassin PVE players there wanna share their rotation? I recently respec'ed to the madness tree because I am finding I am squishy in boss fights as Deception. I also love deathfield and love the fact that I can be more ranged. I am recently speced like this: http://swtorsithassassin.com/2011/12/madness-assassin/. I am being told by folks though that I should really be using more melee attacks and not doing a lot of lightning powers because I need to get raze up as much as possible and this rotation doesn't give priority to melee attacks. I am thinking that if I want to go back to more melee attacks, then I'm better off going back to my old Deception build. But I really like Madness. Any opinions?

I play madness in both pvp and pve, imo it is our best spec. You should never be using anything with a cast time, with the exception of force lightning under recklessness.

 

I generally start off with deathfield to get the deathmarks up, then discharge followed by creeping terror, shock, thrash until raze procs, crushing darkness, then thrash and keep dots up using deathfield on cooldown and saber strike when im low on force. The spec is still mostly melee except you have more uptime than deception. If you are looking for a caster playstyle an assassin is not the class for you.

It's not that I want to be a caster. I leveled to 50 as deception and have been deception until recently. I just wanted some range because I find myself squishy in boss fights with AOE damages. I'd rather be alive till the end of the fight instead of dealing oodles of damage but dying quickly. I find the madness tree with the heals is helpful. I will try your rotation and see how I like it. Thanks.

i start out with shock, so i can just watch that buff so i know when to reapply my dots, dot em up, death field, thrash spam. shock, dots, death field every cooldown, and crushing when it procs

My preferred rotation:

 

Death Field (for the deathmarks)

Creeping Terror (yay 30 meter instant spell)

Discharge

Shock

Thrash

Crushing Darkness (with Raze procs)

 

Then I'll typically Thrash once or twice more then squeeze in 1 or 2 Saber Strikes. By that time Death Field is off CD and the rotation begins again. Once the boss is sub 30% I also Assassinate on CD.

 

Note - The madness spec I use doesn't include Maul. I go up the Darkness tree for Lightning Recovery 'cause I'm the puzzle ***** for Fabricator (guild is only on 8-man normal right now so we use 1 dps for the puzzle).

It's not that I want to be a caster. I leveled to 50 as deception and have been deception until recently. I just wanted some range because I find myself squishy in boss fights with AOE damages. I'd rather be alive till the end of the fight instead of dealing oodles of damage but dying quickly. I find the madness tree with the heals is helpful. I will try your rotation and see how I like it. Thanks.

 

on that point, when you were playing as a deception did you put 2 points into Entropic Field, reducing AOE dmg by 30% has been more then enough for me to allow for the time to get out of the AOE with health to spare.

Hmmm actually no, I did not pick up Entropic Field when I was Deception.

 

I am actually enjoying the Madness rotation suggested. Thanks.

Note - The madness spec I use doesn't include Maul. I go up the Darkness tree for Lightning Recovery 'cause I'm the puzzle ***** for Fabricator (guild is only on 8-man normal right now so we use 1 dps for the puzzle).

 

My Madness spec doesn't include Maul either. Good to know I'm not alone.

The rotation is pretty simple, really.

 

The highest DPS you can get is to have Crushing Darkness eating your Death Charges, so you want to set yourself up for that to happen as often as possible. This is our main goal, so keep it in mind when you're setting up a rotation.

 

You want death charges, so use deathfield.

 

Next, Discharge. You're putting that there to get Raze procs (instant cast Crushing Darkness)

 

Shock (to get the 10% bonus damage to melee)

 

Thrash to get Raze-> Crushing Darkness.

 

Here's the thing about Creeping Terror- it does less damage than both Discharge and Crushing Darkness, so you don't really want it eating Death Charges unless you get unlucky with Raze procs (it happens), your target is 30m away, or you're using it for the resolveless stun utility in PvP.

 

Basically, you've just got to keep the main goal in mind-> I want Crushing Darkness to eat Death Charges. Everything else will flow from that.

The rotation is pretty simple, really.

 

The highest DPS you can get is to have Crushing Darkness eating your Death Charges, so you want to set yourself up for that to happen as often as possible. This is our main goal, so keep it in mind when you're setting up a rotation.

 

You want death charges, so use deathfield.

 

Next, Discharge. You're putting that there to get Raze procs (instant cast Crushing Darkness)

 

Shock (to get the 10% bonus damage to melee)

 

Thrash to get Raze-> Crushing Darkness.

 

Here's the thing about Creeping Terror- it does less damage than both Discharge and Crushing Darkness, so you don't really want it eating Death Charges unless you get unlucky with Raze procs (it happens), your target is 30m away, or you're using it for the resolveless stun utility in PvP.

 

Basically, you've just got to keep the main goal in mind-> I want Crushing Darkness to eat Death Charges. Everything else will flow from that.

 

Are you suggesting not using Creeping? Maybe not going x/x/31...very interesting. I'll have to do some napkin math on this. Thanks for the idea

Just dont use Maul because it will eat force in second and you will do less overall dmg Edited March 2, 2012 by Keeperss

Just dont use Maul because it will eat force in second and you will do less overall dmg

 

Even with a Madness Assassin that takes the 3/3 Duplicity skill? Been wondering...hmm.

IMO - There is no point in putting more than 1 point into Duplicity. Even at 10% it procs enough to use it when its available. As another poster mentioned, the force cost of Duplicity even with the proc is not worth it due to the positional requirements and dmg output as compared to say using Thrash.

 

TL;DR - 1 point in Duplicity, put the rest into the extra 30% armor (or decrease Force Speed cd).

 

Again this is just my opinion.

IMO - There is no point in putting more than 1 point into Duplicity. Even at 10% it procs enough to use it when its available. As another poster mentioned, the force cost of Duplicity even with the proc is not worth it due to the positional requirements and dmg output as compared to say using Thrash.

 

TL;DR - 1 point in Duplicity, put the rest into the extra 30% armor (or decrease Force Speed cd).

 

Again this is just my opinion.

 

Awesome. I currently don't use it, so I'm fine keeping with my Thrashing. Thanks.

Even with a Madness Assassin that takes the 3/3 Duplicity skill? Been wondering...hmm.

 

I use 3/3 Duplicity and I don't have trouble with force regen. Eating deathcharges takes care of it.

 

Full disclosure: I primarily PvP and the Maul burst is invaluable there. I haven't had problems in PvE with this spec either.

 

[edit] It may even be necessary to take 3/3 Duplicity in order to make shock a valid part of the rotation by the numbers. Thrash doesn't hit hard enough so make the 10% melee bonus worth it (versus another thrash and chance at Crushing Darkness), but a Procced Maul CERTAINLY does.

Edited March 5, 2012 by Enexemander

The rotation is pretty simple, really.

 

The highest DPS you can get is to have Crushing Darkness eating your Death Charges, so you want to set yourself up for that to happen as often as possible. This is our main goal, so keep it in mind when you're setting up a rotation.

 

You want death charges, so use deathfield.

 

Next, Discharge. You're putting that there to get Raze procs (instant cast Crushing Darkness)

 

Shock (to get the 10% bonus damage to melee)

 

Thrash to get Raze-> Crushing Darkness.

 

Here's the thing about Creeping Terror- it does less damage than both Discharge and Crushing Darkness, so you don't really want it eating Death Charges unless you get unlucky with Raze procs (it happens), your target is 30m away, or you're using it for the resolveless stun utility in PvP.

 

Basically, you've just got to keep the main goal in mind-> I want Crushing Darkness to eat Death Charges. Everything else will flow from that.

 

This sums it up very well. You should also be using proc'd Mauls whenever you have the chance, especially in PvP. Because it's so positional, it's hard to wait until the CD is almost over before you use it (which would be optimal for damage output, but unlikely in PvP). So you might as well do it whenever you get the chance.

Another thing to note is that Creeping Terror does less damage output than Thrash. Thus, you should never use Creeping Terror other than for its utility (30m range, root, etc.); note that I'm including its range as a utility, for when you're 30m away, DF is on CD, and you have no need for Whirlwind/Electrocute.

 

 

Like in the situation when your target is very far away and you're running towards him (more specifically, like in Civil when you move to assault another base). In this situation, you'll throw up Death Field and have one more global available before you finally get within 4-15m range of the target.

 

It's at this point that you should either use Creeping Terror, a 30m CC, or even do nothing to save your energy/preserve Death Marks. When traveling these distances, Force Speed may let you get into range within just one global (so you use Death Field and Discharge afterwards), but in large distances like in Civil, you'll have used up your Force Speed when traveling the distance already.

Edited March 5, 2012 by Alwaysx

I use 3/3 Duplicity and I don't have trouble with force regen. Eating deathcharges takes care of it.

 

Full disclosure: I primarily PvP and the Maul burst is invaluable there. I haven't had problems in PvE with this spec either.

 

[edit] It may even be necessary to take 3/3 Duplicity in order to make shock a valid part of the rotation by the numbers. Thrash doesn't hit hard enough so make the 10% melee bonus worth it (versus another thrash and chance at Crushing Darkness), but a Procced Maul CERTAINLY does.

 

You do have to take into account though that with 4pc PvE set Thrash gets a 15% increase to crit chance, also in Madness Thrash gets extra 50% crit dmg to close the gap a bit on Maul. I still wouldn't give up Duplicity for it, but just wanted to state that Thrash isn't as low-value as claimed.

 

Also want to add that in Madness, the only reason to use Shock is to keep Unearthed Knowledge up. The 9% melee crit bonus is almost always up as long as you keep your dots up. This is also reason I would not give up Creeping Terror even though it may not do as much damage as Crushing Darkness or Discharge, but it is still extra damage since it's a dot. 3 sets of dots on a target is going to do more damage than 2. The dot from Crushing isn't dependable enough to keep up at all times on target so I'd definitely keep Creeping Terror in any Madnesss spec.

 

EDIT: I'm talking strictly PvE. In PvP Creeping Terror is only useful as utility for its range and root.

Edited March 5, 2012 by jkcheng

You do have to take into account though that with 4pc PvE set Thrash gets a 15% increase to crit chance, also in Madness Thrash gets extra 50% crit dmg to close the gap a bit on Maul. I still wouldn't give up Duplicity for it, but just wanted to state that Thrash isn't as low-value as claimed.

 

Also want to add that in Madness, the only reason to use Shock is to keep Unearthed Knowledge up. The 9% melee crit bonus is almost always up as long as you keep your dots up.

 

I agree completely.

 

 

This is also reason I would not give up Creeping Terror even though it may not do as much damage as Crushing Darkness or Discharge, but it is still extra damage since it's a dot. 3 sets of dots on a target is going to do more damage than 2. The dot from Crushing isn't dependable enough to keep up at all times on target so I'd definitely keep Creeping Terror in any Madnesss spec.

To add to the importance of CT in PvE: although CT provides less DPS than even Thrash, the 1 point still remains useful in certain boss fights, such as Annihilator Droid, Gharj, etc., when you're running back towards the boss and DF is on CD. If you don't have the talent, then you just wasted a global. And really, there's not much else that the 1 talent point could do better in.

Edited March 5, 2012 by Alwaysx

Just noticed OP is more concerned with PvE dps after reading the title again, so just to summarize a bit:

 

1. Madness does not use a rotation exactly, more of a priority based mechanic

2. It takes a while to reach max potential as you get better at maintaining timers, buffs, debuffs

3. Check the sticky in this forum for the priority list.

 

I'm currently 24/0/17 build as I'm also offtanking for my guild in our HM Op runs, prior to that I was full Madness with the 2 points OP spent in Electric Execution in Lightning Recovery (I highly recommend having this over EE).

 

When I first spec'ed to it after my 0/13/28 build was destroyed by Bioware, it was very overwhelming. I could not keep up with all the buffs that has to remain on me and the dots/debuffs that have to stick on target. After prob a week or two I got better hang of it and really enjoyed the mechanics of it and the DPS is very good.

 

How I usually deal with an encounter:

1. Recklessness

2. Death Field (to be cast on cd) from range

3. Creeping Terror (keep the dot on target up) as I close in to 10m

4. Discharge (keep the dot on target up)

5. Shock (to be cast every 20s to keep Unearthed Knowledge up)

6. Maul when Exploit Weakness (some ppl don't pick up this as it adds one more thing to watch for in the "rotation", but if you PvP at all, this is great to have. I also like having an extra melee move to use besides Thrash)

7. Thrash when everything above is fine (ie nothing needs to be refreshed and no Exploit Weakness)

8. Crushing Darkness (to be cast whenever Raze procs unless... go to no.9)

9. Assassinate (this ability takes priority over all others when target is under 30% health and needs to be cast on cd)

 

I'm not sure of one thing though, if Unearthed Knowledge has expired and target is below 30% health, should I spend the next GCD on Shock first or Assassinate w/o UK?

 

7.

PvE wise, is Maul with duplicity that "important" for our dps?

 

How good is our regen with Deathmarks that you can ignore Dark Embrace?

 

I've been toying with the idea of something like this http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#200Mc0cZ0MZcMfRrMkrfz.1

 

for end game pve, where I start off an encounter stealthed for the extra regen and vanish when i need more regen and as well to get 3 points into electric execution instead of 2 by sacrificing Duplicity.

 

Are we fine enough with regen through deathmarks that Dark embrance isnt needed?

PvE wise, is Maul with duplicity that "important" for our dps?

 

How good is our regen with Deathmarks that you can ignore Dark Embrace?

 

I've been toying with the idea of something like this http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#200Mc0cZ0MZcMfRrMkrfz.1

 

for end game pve, where I start off an encounter stealthed for the extra regen and vanish when i need more regen and as well to get 3 points into electric execution instead of 2 by sacrificing Duplicity.

 

Are we fine enough with regen through deathmarks that Dark embrance isnt needed?

 

Maul isn't needed for Madness builds, I just get it so Thrash and Assassinate isn't the only melee I do. In my opinion Dark Embrace is not worth picking up without Darkswell, you just don't get enough uses out of it.

 

If not in Duplicity, I'd go with this: http://knotor.com/skills#Ag4KAB+qu8rbCSsySVJaYnmJkpqrsrrL2gAA

Maul isn't needed for Madness builds, I just get it so Thrash and Assassinate isn't the only melee I do. In my opinion Dark Embrace is not worth picking up without Darkswell, you just don't get enough uses out of it.

 

If not in Duplicity, I'd go with this: http://knotor.com/skills#Ag4KAB+qu8rbCSsySVJaYnmJkpqrsrrL2gAA

 

I'm aware of the 10/0/31 build but the points in lighting recovery doesnt seem useful in a pve point of view.

 

Hm i guess i'll toy with it when I hit 50. Thanks for the input

I'm aware of the 10/0/31 build but the points in lighting recovery doesnt seem useful in a pve point of view.

 

Hm i guess i'll toy with it when I hit 50. Thanks for the input

 

LR is really a preference type talent. I enjoyed having it for our Operatins so much that I will not make future Assassin specs w/o it.

LR is really a preference type talent. I enjoyed having it for our Operatins so much that I will not make future Assassin specs w/o it.

 

For having the speed or for the shroud ? or both ? o.O lol

For having the speed or for the shroud ? or both ? o.O lol

 

Both, but for me it's more for the speed than the shroud. Soa, Annihilator, Pylons, are just a few fights that comes off top of my head where LR is invaluable.

Edited March 7, 2012 by jkcheng