cuteman Posted August 7, 2013 Share Posted August 7, 2013 updated OP for double proc relics. on use shield is good for tank swap/ bursty fights. and i want to plug tor-tank.com. advanced options for damage weights and shield ratio (a static number or am check bos to not change shield would be ncie). So for shadow it's proc absorb and proc def as per your askmrrobt profile? http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/character/f86459f4-c432-4ad4-b89c-c5fb537676fb I've only got UW still, but I assume it holds for 72s? I currently have UW proc absorb and Campaign proc healing (ephemeral mending) Right now I am leaning towards UW Def Proc or UW healing. Thanks in advance! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurugu Posted August 7, 2013 Share Posted August 7, 2013 updated OP for double proc relics. on use shield is good for tank swap/ bursty fights. Does this mean the patch note interpretation that said both (def proc and shield proc) could be used together starting with 2.3. was correct? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snarkasms Posted August 7, 2013 Share Posted August 7, 2013 Yes. /5char Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AAAAzrael Posted August 7, 2013 Share Posted August 7, 2013 Now the question is what should I do on my shadow main. I have UW healing relic and Arcanian def proc. I also have arcanian absorb proc. Should I keep it is it is or swap absorb with healing? Not sure tbh atm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kitru Posted August 7, 2013 Share Posted August 7, 2013 Now the question is what should I do on my shadow main. I have UW healing relic and Arcanian def proc. I also have arcanian absorb proc. Should I keep it is it is or swap absorb with healing? Not sure tbh atm. It's been stated a few times in a number of other threads: the BiS for all tanks at the moment is def proc and abs proc. You can swap out the Shield/Abs use relic for specific fights with high tank downtime but that's conditional and only a marginal improvement so you can get away with no doing so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dipstik Posted August 7, 2013 Author Share Posted August 7, 2013 (edited) the healy relic is still BiS (with def proc) for shadows for fights with less than 6250 dps. but i think new NiM content is 6500 ish (dont quote me on that, i dont have real numbers). for 16m hm i kind of think the absorb proc might be more helpful due to spike damage concerns. Edited August 7, 2013 by dipstik Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dipstik Posted August 7, 2013 Author Share Posted August 7, 2013 (edited) So for shadow it's proc absorb and proc def as per your askmrrobt profile? http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/character/f86459f4-c432-4ad4-b89c-c5fb537676fb I've only got UW still, but I assume it holds for 72s? I currently have UW proc absorb and Campaign proc healing (ephemeral mending) Right now I am leaning towards UW Def Proc or UW healing. Thanks in advance! get the def proc! even the KD healy relic seems to "mitigate" less damage around 5850 incoming dps Edited August 7, 2013 by dipstik Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WillLongstick Posted August 7, 2013 Share Posted August 7, 2013 updated OP for double proc relics. on use shield is good for tank swap/ bursty fights. and i want to plug tor-tank.com. advanced options for damage weights and shield ratio (a static number or am check bos to not change shield would be ncie). I'm curious about how you arrived at this BIS setup. Are you looking at the relic tables you've had up since 2.0 and taking the 2 relics with the highest rating for each class, or are you running a sim/calculation where you find the average mitigation of each relic pairing? Reason I ask is for Guardians and Vanguards, the defense proc is clearly BIS, and the second relic comes down to: abs proc 0.3130 0.3023 0.3168 0.0038 pvp 0.3134 0.3168 0.0034 Since the absorb proc is only 11% better than a static pvp relic, I think it's possible that a defense proc/war hero pairing could be better than a defense proc/absorb proc since the value of the absorb proc is diminished every time the defense proc is active and increasing defense chance by ~4.5%. To better illustrate my point, my Jugg tank is sitting at 20.5/41/31 for def/shield/abs. Now with in combat buffs and 90% boss accuracy, I dodge 40.5% of all melee/ranged attacks, giving me an effective shield percentage of 0.595*0.41 = 24.4% shield. With the defense proc active, I'm dodging 45% of all melee/ranged attacks, giving me an effective shield percentage of 0.55*0.41 = 22.5%. So that means the defense proc decreases the absorb proc relic's chances of proccing, or applying its increased absorb by 1.9% during that 6 second window. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dipstik Posted August 7, 2013 Author Share Posted August 7, 2013 i am just using the relic contributions on top of optimized gear, in vacuum so to speak. i dont think that having an extra 5% defense for 6/23rds of the time is going to dimish the absorb contribution by 11%. if your clacs show me otherwise, i would be interested in your analysis. but there seems to be a bigger problem: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=669110 THEY BROKE THE RELICS! sometimes between pts and live for 2.3 im speachless Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WillLongstick Posted August 7, 2013 Share Posted August 7, 2013 but there seems to be a bigger problem: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=669110 THEY BROKE THE RELICS! sometimes between pts and live for 2.3 Settle down, the guy reporting the bug used two Partisan relics and the patch note only explicitly said Arkanian, Underworld, and Kell Dragon relic. As for the sim... maybe I'll get to it. I think some interesting results may come out of it since my short testing (1 minute dying to flashpoint trash) of the double procs showed the had a likelihood of proccing around the same time. Maybe the 7-15 minute boss fights change that, maybe they don't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dipstik Posted August 7, 2013 Author Share Posted August 7, 2013 (edited) another thing to note is that in endgame content around 20 to 35% of the k/e damage is f/t... which means that defense wont work on them, but shield will. how this translates into abilities im not sure. for the time being i have tried to set up a swing timer of 0.87 seconds and populate defese, shield and proc rolls (shield relic doesnt need to roll). i have set it so every 5th attack is a force attack, which defense doesnt matter for... but if u look at most parses, it seems more like 100 melee/ranged attacks for every one force/tyech ability...so the model needs to start off in the right direction before i start dealing with setting the conditions for a type of roll for the next x swings or whatever. Edited August 7, 2013 by dipstik Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kitru Posted August 7, 2013 Share Posted August 7, 2013 THEY BROKE THE RELICS! sometimes between pts and live for 2.3 I've tested this on live with an abs proc relic and a def proc relic. They proc independently just fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dipstik Posted August 7, 2013 Author Share Posted August 7, 2013 yeah. i guess they are just broken for pvp... still sadlol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dipstik Posted August 7, 2013 Author Share Posted August 7, 2013 (edited) first off, this is prolly the most complex simulation i have done. i used vangauard kd numbers and compared how the same rolls would result in different damage numbers between a def_proc+shield_proc setup versus a def_proc+pvp setup. the raw data here for 86 iterations: d+s d+pvp pvp minus both 138.8408 138.1382 -0.7026 137.4645 137.832 0.3675 133.2363 132.7506 -0.4857 141.9549 142.3966 0.4417 149.4809 149.6072 0.1263 136.5785 134.9276 -1.6509 146.8675 147.655 0.7875 140.8483 141.478 0.6297 142.4556 142.1382 -0.3174 128.5963 128.3152 -0.2811 145.3579 145.655 0.2971 132.0423 131.832 -0.2103 138.8067 139.1382 0.3315 143.7875 142.832 -0.9555 133.5178 133.5736 0.0558 134.2985 133.6214 -0.6771 133.3668 133.9134 0.5466 144.4364 143.9612 -0.4752 126.386 127.0904 0.7044 132.4009 131.3488 -1.0521 138.0601 137.9612 -0.0989 139.069 140.655 1.586 138.4378 139.5736 1.1358 142.903 144.2674 1.3644 140.4542 140.7842 0.33 149.3238 150.2196 0.8958 140.4112 140.5258 0.1146 133.5772 132.478 -1.0992 137.4556 136.009 -1.4466 135.2971 135.2674 -0.0297 142.0587 142.7364 0.6777 133.6468 132.655 -0.9918 134.694 134.7984 0.1044 136.7459 137.0568 0.3109 141.8586 143.655 1.7964 137.6052 139.009 1.4038 137.4986 137.9612 0.4626 134.4542 134.2196 -0.2346 130.8675 131.0904 0.2229 129.9194 131.0426 1.1232 154.0157 153.3488 -0.6669 137.1045 135.5736 -1.5309 140.1045 141.3966 1.2921 145.7609 145.478 -0.2829 133.9549 133.9612 0.0063 145.9549 147.3966 1.4417 140.2691 137.6072 -2.6619 136.1059 137.3152 1.2093 126.1933 127.186 0.9927 135.4453 135.0904 -0.3549 146.2097 146.3966 0.1869 137.4126 138.009 0.5964 134.6823 137.3966 2.7143 139.9815 139.3152 -0.6663 144.3668 144.9134 0.5466 139.6127 140.2196 0.6069 139.4275 138.832 -0.5955 145.3504 146.1382 0.7878 130.9549 131.5258 0.5709 140.5178 140.009 -0.5088 141.9638 141.5258 -0.438 138.8689 138.4444 -0.4245 137.946 139.5258 1.5798 124.2985 126.4444 2.1459 147.4201 148.7842 1.3641 137.9993 138.7028 0.7035 138.7711 139.186 0.4149 140.9549 139.2674 -1.6875 132.86 134.009 1.149 143.9993 144.1382 0.1389 144.2438 143.9612 -0.2826 142.5075 142.5258 0.0183 135.026 135.9612 0.9352 143.9446 143.3488 -0.5958 138.1031 137.2196 -0.8835 136.1933 138.3152 2.1219 140.5341 141.009 0.4749 143.3238 143.0904 -0.2334 140.5683 139.9134 -0.6549 130.2971 131.9612 1.6641 132.8941 133.5736 0.6795 139.3934 139.7028 0.3094 136.7712 136.9612 0.19 150.4631 149.7842 -0.6789 148.8483 147.7842 -1.0641 136.7001 137.655 0.9549 average 0.194102326 so you take 0.2 more damage (this is over 230 swings of 1 dmg, where 20% of attacks were tech) using the pvp relic... but whats weird is you can see that the pvp relic fared better some of the times (all negative 3rd column values) this is assuming: def def proc shield absorb abs proc shd pvp abs pvp def pvp def pvp proc 0.2099 0.2626 0.4153 0.5526 0.6489 0.4302 0.5646 0.2086 0.2617 so... i took a design of experiment class once so i did a two sample t test with one tail alternative hypothesis at 75% confidence: (c1 is both and c2 is def+pvp) Two-Sample T-Test and CI: C1, C2 Two-sample T for C1 vs C2 N Mean StDev SE Mean C1 86 138.76 5.70 0.61 C2 86 138.95 5.62 0.61 Difference = mu (C1) - mu (C2) Estimate for difference: -0.194 75% upper bound for difference: 0.389 T-Test of difference = 0 (vs <): T-Value = -0.22 P-Value = 0.411 DF = 169 ...so they are almost identical, with a slight advantage to using both proc relics... but not statistically significant. Edited August 7, 2013 by dipstik Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlixMV Posted August 8, 2013 Share Posted August 8, 2013 (edited) It's been stated a few times in a number of other threads: the BiS for all tanks at the moment is def proc and abs proc. You can swap out the Shield/Abs use relic for specific fights with high tank downtime but that's conditional and only a marginal improvement so you can get away with no doing so. Okay, n00b question (just a longtime lurker)--are you saying to swap out both proc relics for a Shield and the Absorb use relics? Or if only swapping out one relic for a Shield or Absorb use relic, which of the proc ones would you replace? Replacing Absorb proc for an Absorb use makes more sense, but I'm not as into the backend to validate that inclination. TIA! Edited August 8, 2013 by AlixMV Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kitru Posted August 8, 2013 Share Posted August 8, 2013 Okay, n00b question (just a longtime lurker)--are you saying to swap out both proc relics for a Shield and the Absorb use relics? Or if only swapping out one relic for a Shield or Absorb use relic, which of the proc ones would you replace? You'll want to swap out only one of them; specifically, the Absorb proc relic (it has Power as its passive stat rather than Defense). You never want to use 2 use relics of the same stat because using either of them will place the other on the 2 minute CD. Even if you're using 2 use relics of different type (such as one Def and one Shield/Abs), using one will put the other one on CD, albeit a shorter CD (1 minute). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlixMV Posted August 16, 2013 Share Posted August 16, 2013 You'll want to swap out only one of them; specifically, the Absorb proc relic (it has Power as its passive stat rather than Defense). You never want to use 2 use relics of the same stat because using either of them will place the other on the 2 minute CD. Even if you're using 2 use relics of different type (such as one Def and one Shield/Abs), using one will put the other one on CD, albeit a shorter CD (1 minute). Thanks for the confirmation! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leto_cleon Posted August 16, 2013 Share Posted August 16, 2013 yeah. i guess they are just broken for pvp... still sadlol New 2.4 Tank PVP Relics, Obroan Tier Fortunate Redoubt - 625 def proc, 20s (+21 static def) Shield Amplification - 625 abs proc, 20s Ephemeral Mending - 782 heal proc, 20s *New* Reactive Warding: Incoming attacks have a 30% chance to grant an absorb shield that protects the user from 1360 damage for 6s. This effect can only occur every 40s Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dipstik Posted August 18, 2013 Author Share Posted August 18, 2013 that comes out to 32 ish hps, which is above the healies, assuming 23 and 43 sec proc int. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yngow Posted August 18, 2013 Share Posted August 18, 2013 That new relic is very interesting, I wonder if we're seeing those new relics in pve versions. When the DR start getting too high I can see that relic being a very good choice, also the fact that it works for any damage and unlike the healing relic this one will never "overheal". It would be really awesome to see an on-use version of it too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nagatamen Posted August 18, 2013 Share Posted August 18, 2013 New 2.4 Tank PVP Relics, Obroan Tier Fortunate Redoubt - 625 def proc, 20s (+21 static def) Shield Amplification - 625 abs proc, 20s Ephemeral Mending - 782 heal proc, 20s *New* Reactive Warding: Incoming attacks have a 30% chance to grant an absorb shield that protects the user from 1360 damage for 6s. This effect can only occur every 40s I like the sound of that new relic, but what is the strength when compared to the def and abs proc relics? Will this "bubble relic" help with Shadow spikiness or is it too little not often enough? Personally what I'm hoping for is relic diversity between tank classes (Vanguard's want abs and def proc, Shadows want bubble and def proc, etc...). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THoK-Zeus Posted August 18, 2013 Share Posted August 18, 2013 (edited) that comes out to 32 ish hps, which is above the healies, assuming 23 and 43 sec proc int. Afaik its not above the obroan healing relic (34 hps for assassins), which makes it worse then the corresponding def/abs proc relics atleast for nim Content and a little bit worse then the corresponding healing relic for assassins/shadows. @Nagatamen: The bubble relic is blocking a constant amount of damage (assuming you get more then 1,4k dmg in 6 sec which will happen all the time i suppose), compared to def/abs proc relics which block X% of the incoming damage. So generally, the new bubble relic is more effective when the tank is getting less damage (similar to the healing relic for assassins which has about the same power level), while the def/abs proc relics are getting better the more damage a tank is facing. So the def/abs proc relics are better for spikes, as they will block a lot more damage on average, when a tank is facing a lot of damage (atm its 6k dps. During nim on "spike phases" tanks will get more damage.) Edited August 18, 2013 by THoK-Zeus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
veggielover Posted August 23, 2013 Share Posted August 23, 2013 I recall it being discussed but I don't recall if it was ever tested. Is there improved damage reduction for Juggs / Guards to use either the aim or will 4 set bonus (ie 2% damage reduction which I believe is the same for both) ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THoK-Zeus Posted August 23, 2013 Share Posted August 23, 2013 I recall it being discussed but I don't recall if it was ever tested. Is there improved damage reduction for Juggs / Guards to use either the aim or will 4 set bonus (ie 2% damage reduction which I believe is the same for both) ? Theoretically better afaik but no one is taking the sin 4 set bonus (willpower would make more sense for juggs then aim).So far in current content its probably not needed. You are also losing quite a bit of mainstat, i don't know whether that would be important for juggs (for sin tanks it wouldnt be). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corbyone Posted August 27, 2013 Share Posted August 27, 2013 (edited) First let me say thank you for all the hard work you go through for this, we do appreciate it. Secondly , I'm trying to figure our which numbers to follow for my Guardian raid tank. We are currently going through HM tfb/S&V and mt stat budget is about 2100. Basically what is the difference between KBN's numbers and yours for JG tank @ 2000 budget. Edited August 27, 2013 by corbyone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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