lol@ Ventress, if only we didn't have that pesky rule to stop that...

 

As for your points. I concede I underplayed Grievous's tactical ability. However, I feel (by virtue of being smaller) there is less and less reason for MtU to spread himself thin as he doesn't NEED to protect as much in order to support his army thus negating Grievous's ability to do so. Also, notice I never said MtU's fleet would ever engage Grievous's fleet a second time just provoke or shadow. It's only after the whittling away of Grievous's supply/reinforcements that he can actually attack Grievous head on. But his fleet can still do enough damage that when it pops into a system nearby, Grievous must recall ships to overpower in the event of a battle. MtU effectively stalks Grievous's fleet while smaller Mando raiding parties dismantle Grievous's powerbase from the outside. Grievous would be trying to track the primary fleet, direct assaults on lightly defended worlds, and defend his powerbase from constant raids and harassment. And If MtU even found an important world of Grievous's, we know he has no qualms about utterly annihilating it. (granted Grievous would do the same but I think Grievous actually prefers the full land assaults and conquest whereas MtU would just as soon burn the whole thing and be done.)

 

I think it's a standoff between the fleets till one side's powerbase is chewed to bits. While Grievous is smart, I think MtU will just control things too well in the opening stages and have the momentum allowing him to hack at Grievous who would HAVE to win a few battles against these small forces to placate the other leaders of the CIS (ultimate problem of a Confederacy, they're not always unified) This will set up much of the second half of my scenario.

 

Now Aurbere, I completely see how Grievous would win. He'd drive his forces hard in a huge swath of destruction across the galaxy smothering the Mandos with numbers once they have them located and engaged (actually an early WW2 German tactic and later American one). The thing with my scenario is that MtU would know this and take the initiative, keep the Mandos mobile and aggressive. If MtU went defensive he'd be buried under a few billion megatons of droid.

 

I fully agree with everything you just said. Mandalore has that ability to move around the galaxy. But then again, so does Grievous. They just go about it differently. We have two very aggressive players here, but they are also very smart. I think we would see major clashes across the galaxy.

 

Mandalore has to play aggressive in order to be successful. Because once Grievous gets the advantage, it's pretty much over. And for Grievous to get the advantage is not impossible. I see a scenario playing out as such:

 

Mandalore strikes hard, very hard. Bringing his fleets to bear of Grievous' forces. At first Grievous is going to go for the numbers beat all strategy, but will quickly reconsider as Mandalore makes more strikes on CIS worlds. So now Grievous goes for a different strategy. Grievous will luse Mandalore's fleets into a trap. He will let Mandalore get in and use his superior numbers to surround and trap Mandalore's forces. Mandalore will probably escape, but now he's severely weakened while Grievous makes simultaneous attacks on Mandalore's fringe worlds. At this time, however, his factories and shipyards continue to churn out more and more droids. Eventually, Grievous' losses from the initial moves are replaced.

 

Mandalore's only hope now is to make an offensive. Unfortunately, he no longer has the manpower to do what he did at the beginning of the war. Grievous' numbers would eventually overpower Mandalore.

 

Obviously Grievous' production power will have been damaged by Mandalore's offensive, but Mandalore would have also taken heavy losses. Losses that he can't replace like Grievous can.

 

The battle would be grueling, but I see the industry and numbers that Grievous has prevailing after a pretty epic war.

I fully agree with everything you just said. Mandalore has that ability to move around the galaxy. But then again, so does Grievous. They just go about it differently. We have two very aggressive players here, but they are also very smart. I think we would see major clashes across the galaxy.

 

Mandalore has to play aggressive in order to be successful. Because once Grievous gets the advantage, it's pretty much over. And for Grievous to get the advantage is not impossible. I see a scenario playing out as such:

 

Mandalore strikes hard, very hard. Bringing his fleets to bear of Grievous' forces. At first Grievous is going to go for the numbers beat all strategy, but will quickly reconsider as Mandalore makes more strikes on CIS worlds. So now Grievous goes for a different strategy. Grievous will luse Mandalore's fleets into a trap. He will let Mandalore get in and use his superior numbers to surround and trap Mandalore's forces. Mandalore will probably escape, but now he's severely weakened while Grievous makes simultaneous attacks on Mandalore's fringe worlds. At this time, however, his factories and shipyards continue to churn out more and more droids. Eventually, Grievous' losses from the initial moves are replaced.

 

Mandalore's only hope now is to make an offensive. Unfortunately, he no longer has the manpower to do what he did at the beginning of the war. Grievous' numbers would eventually overpower Mandalore.

 

Obviously Grievous' production power will have been damaged by Mandalore's offensive, but Mandalore would have also taken heavy losses. Losses that he can't replace like Grievous can.

 

The battle would be grueling, but I see the industry and numbers that Grievous has prevailing after a pretty epic war.

 

Wow, I think we're getting closer to a final outcome here. lol we might just write this for Beni if we keep it up.

 

I'll agree, save for the trap. MtU is renown for avoiding them or twisting them to his advantage. I think he'll keep a lot more of his fleet than you think and inflict a bit more damage. Other than that combine my scenario and yours and I think that's how it'll play out.

 

Aurbere's version = Grievous wins by overwhelming MtU via production post ambush

My version = MtU wins Picking Grievous apart as he tries to rebuild post ambush

 

Sound about right?

 

Either way it plays out almost identically. It'll come down to who gets the advantage from that second "ambush" engagement. Would you agree?

 

Edit: real quick, I agree that if MtU screws up even a little bit, he looses, but I think he really is just that good that he can fight a perfect strategic battle even against the brilliant (if twisted) mind of Grievous.

Edited December 29, 2012 by StarSquirrel

Wow, I think we're getting closer to a final outcome here. lol we might just write this for Beni if we keep it up.

 

I'll agree, save for the trap. MtU is renown for avoiding them or twisting them to his advantage. I think he'll keep a lot more of his fleet than you think and inflict a bit more damage. Other than that combine my scenario and yours and I think that's how it'll play out.

 

Aurbere's version = Grievous wins by overwhelming MtU via production post ambush

My version = MtU wins Picking Grievous apart as he tries to rebuild post ambush

 

Sound about right?

 

Either way it plays out almost identically. It'll come down to who gets the advantage from that second "ambush" engagement. Would you agree?

 

Edit: real quick, I agree that if MtU screws up even a little bit, he looses, but I think he really is just that good that he can fight a perfect strategic battle even against the brilliant (if twisted) mind of Grievous.

 

We are coming to a conclusion for sure. They can both make traps and avoid traps. However, I think Grievous would have the advantage in making traps, simply because of his numbers advantage. Either way, I think they are tactically even.

 

We should also remember Ventress. If Grievous sees that the Mandalorians are able to outwit him and avoid his traps, he can just send Ventress in to kill MtU.

1 on 1 , I give it to Grievous . I could be wrong but having 4 arms wielding lightsabers is an advantage .

 

Powerbase , I give it to MTU ! It took a Republic Fleet full of Jedi and Jedi Masters to bring him down . Was no Palpatine playing both sides or games . The Battle was between 2 groups .

 

Ventress and Grievous largely ran from fights with skills Combatants , until Grievous was at a dead end and had to face Obi-Wan . With no where to run he died .

Ventress is a glorified Apprentice who was not even respected by Dooku who never gave her the title and called her unworthy of it .

If it was not for the Master Chess player Palpatine both Grievous and Ventress would not have made it far .

 

I almost want to go as far to say MtU would kill Ventress , but that would be pure Opinion .

Mandos like them or not are Warriors who live for battle and do not fear death , something both Ventress and Grievous do !

 

The begining of the battle will be in Grievous's favor but after awhile the aggressive Mando's will start to crush the Robot Fleet ! Just like the Jedi , MtU will learn quickly that Grievous is a Coward and will run leaving ships that blow in his gettaway .Likely killing Ventress as Grievous cares only for saving his own skin .

 

Once this hits the ground , Grievous will be trapped as large amount of his own planning was from Sidious and without him telling Grievous what to do next he will run till the end of the line . The Mandos will do as they do best and rip through the Driod Army hungering for Grievous to kill . As they will get no reward for killing Driods.

 

MtU will likely never get a one on one , which would likely be his doom . The Mando army will be in such a mode to kill , by the time MtU gets to the Ground all that will be left of Grievous is his head and chest .

 

Almost all the plans Grievous was involved in came from either Sidious or Dooku . In large Grievous was the face to give the orders . I guess that is forgotten , but without Dooku or Sidious , Grievous is a grasping from Breath 4 Arm Light show that largely only beat less skilled Jedi , much like Ventress . Both ending most fights in running for their own lives . Ventress while with soo much promise was shafted by uncaring Masters who did not give her the skills needed to reach her full abilities and skills.

Edited December 29, 2012 by mefit

Shoot, Cassus is a genius, while Ventress and Grievous are pretty much brute force fighters. I gotta give it to Mandalore this time.

I'm far from an expert, and it seems that pretty much everyone here has a better knowledge of the EU than me, but I'd hesitate to call it either way without agreeing on very rough figures for troop numbers (there's a BIG difference between estimates of over a trillion and a quintillion - one is a million times larger than the other). It's the difference between the mandalorians being outnumbered 2 million to 1 or 2 trillion to 1. Either way, I'd give it to Grevious.

I would still have to give it to Grievous. Grievous has, as already state, a tremendous numbers advantage. Even if the quality of his warriors are less, the sheer numbers provide a great advantage. Mandalore did well against a weakened Republic before Jedi got involved, while Grievous had a full revitalized Republic shaking to its foundation. And let us not forget Ventress's involvement in the matter. Grievous alone had turned a war around from a loss to an almost victory,(This being before his cybernetic days, and the 'almost' because the Republic intervened) and is a brilliant tactician. He may not seem like it at times, but he knows how to use his numbers. And then we have Ventress, a skilled assassin and Dark Jedi who can go 1 v 1 with the most powerful of Jedi. I know little of Cassus Fett, but I am a firm believer that few non-force users, even mandalorians, can best Grievous or Ventress in a 1 v 1 battle. (Feel free to inform me on Cassus Fett, but both Ventress and Grievous's accomplishments speak for themselves) Grievouses has the forces he could essentlially split his fleets and power base in half and give Ventress forces to act on her own, giving Mandalore the Ultimate almost two different enemies, as he would now have to account for both of their actions. ((This would only work if this was used, whether Grievous utilizes this would be left to be seen)) WIth two brilliant and different tacticians, who can also lead their troops and force a path of blood through a battlefield, I would have to still say Grievous has this in the bag. Mandalore would no doubt get a few major victories, but Grievous would have it where it counts.

We are coming to a conclusion for sure. They can both make traps and avoid traps. However, I think Grievous would have the advantage in making traps, simply because of his numbers advantage. Either way, I think they are tactically even.

 

We should also remember Ventress. If Grievous sees that the Mandalorians are able to outwit him and avoid his traps, he can just send Ventress in to kill MtU.

 

Ventress... I don't think she will kill MtU. First, she has to get through an army of Mandos all foaming at the mouth for a chance to take her on. If she manages that, she'll be worn out and MtU is no slouch in his Beskar armor. Meanwhile, Fett can still make command decisions for the fleet. Heck MtU could even be killed and Fett would just take command and finish it, blasting Grievous's command ship apart. I feel like these allies present a case of Mutually Assured Destruction.

 

As for the traps, yeah there's no way around it. Like we've both stated, it'll come down to Grievous's trap in every scenario.

 

My opinion

 

 

I say whoever gets the advantage leaving that engagement will win the Kaggath.

Edited December 29, 2012 by StarSquirrel

Ventress... I don't think she will kill MtU. First, she has to get through an army of Mandos all foaming at the mouth for a chance to take her on. If she manages that, she'll be worn out and MtU is no slouch in his Beskar armor. Meanwhile, Fett can still make command decisions for the fleet. Heck MtU could even be killed and Fett would just take command and finish it, blasting Grievous's command ship apart. I feel like these allies present a case of Mutually Assured Destruction.

 

As for the traps, yeah there's no way around it. Like we've both stated, it'll come down to Grievous's trap in every scenario.

 

My opinion

I think Mandalore the Ultimate will recognize the trap, and use this knowledge to spring the trap in a way that ends with his boot so far up Grievous's waste disposal chute that at the very least, Grievous suffers such a blow that MtU can exploit it and keep being aggressive.

 

 

I say whoever gets the advantage leaving that engagement will win the Kaggath.

Just to clarify, when the opponent is killed, the other wins. The allies can't take their place, so if either Grievous or MtU is killed the Kaggath is over.

 

This is actually an important factor, I'm not sure of MtU has the manpower to kill Grievous. Every time he springs a trap Grievous will escape (and remember Grievous can afford not to be on the front lines in every engagement), and MtU simply cannot afford to sleep setting traps with Grievous whittling away at his forces in every one. While Grievous can simply replace lost forces. Neither can MtU afford multiple strikes. While Grievous can attack him on multiple fronts, and on the ground. However he does have a tactical advantage in space as he will no doubt employ guerrilla tactics. If I where Grievous I'd force MtU into a ground engagement, where Grievous has a big advantage. Grievous has numerous bases across the galaxy which no doubt have planetary shields (or at least they can be installed). So Grievous holes himself up on say Cato Nemoidia or Murkana, blockades the planet and waits for MtU to attack, while striking at his forces with his fleets etc.

 

Or a more likely scenario is that Grievous finds where MtU is striking from (Dxun) and launches an invasion, checkmate.

 

The SE won because of their Force users (I still question that decision but it doesn't matter) and last time I checked, Mandalore didn't have Force users. Not only that, but the Mandalorians pretty much fell apart when Revan and the Revanchists joined the war. They still put up a good fight, but there was a clear change in momentum when Revan joined the war.

 

Grievous was able to fight a war against some of the most powerful Jedi ever. Not only that, but Grievous was able to keep up with the massive shipyards of Kuat and Rothana. Mandalore faced a Republic that was still damaged from the devastation that Exar Kun brought about during the Great Sith War. No one questions the capabilities of the Mandalorians, but they didn't face the monster that was the Republic industry at the time of the Clone Wars. Grievous was able to force the Republic to spread its forces thin across the galaxy.

 

The Mandalorians would be confronted by an unlimited number of battle droids, heavy assault vehicles and fleets that could contend with some of the most powerful ships constructed. Mandalore doesn't have Force users like the Republic. He doesn't have billions of soldiers. And he doesn't have the industrial might to to stop Grievous.

 

We know Mandalorians can beat the standard B1 Battle Droids, but can they stop the merciless assault from AAT's, Hailfire droids, Spider Droids, Dwarf Spider Droids etc.? No. He just doesn't have the forces to do it. Each battle (even a victory) is going to wear down Mandalore's numbers. The casualties stack up, especially when you don't have limitless numbers like the CIS. Losses don't matter when you can simply make more. Mandalore doesn't have that luxury.

 

Not to mention the fact that Grievous can just send Ventress to kill Mandalore and Fett. And she can kill them.

 

Mandalore wins a few battles, but he gets overwhelmed by the sheer numbers and production capabilities of the CIS.

 

Way to kill my post Aurbere:rolleyes:. Anyway, I definitely agree about the two scenarios brewing. I can totally see where you both are coming from.

 

Now to Ventress. She will be the factor that decides the fight. If she was to assassinate Mandalore, there would be spots that Mandalore could win. Notably if he was able to knock her second sabe away from her Ventress would be at a disadvantage. Also, she fought with Makashi and Jar'Kai, which would only really help her if in a duel(I don't know for sure). Also, if she was to fail, she hated criticism, which she wold most definitely receive from Grievious. If he pushed her enough, Ventress could fight him-something she has done before, and won.

 

Sadly, I don't see it being that easy. I think she might just kill Mandalore and end the Kaggath. Any help here fellow Mandalorians?

I'd like to look at the tactics of both. Both are experienced and proven generals and are very agressive. I see no clear advantage when it comes to strategy EXCEPT that MtU has Fett. With that in mind, I might give a slight tactical advantage to MtU. Also: we need to look at exactly what kind of plans are available to these guys. We need to look at their options. The bulk of Greivous's army is made up of B1 battle droids, which are only good (correct me if I'm wrong) overwhelming the enemy through numbers. MtU's army is made up of experienced war veterans. They can do many things. In this since, MtU has an advantage because his soldier type gives him more options in war. Am I making since? I think this indicates another advantage for MtU. Due to soldier quality he'll have more options and manueverability with his battle plans.

 

Despite these two points and the recent ones made by StarSquirrel (I think that's his name?) I still feel that Greivous will win. Just look at who he fought during the Clone Wars: an army significantly bigger then MtU's that had much better industry, and had the entire Jedi Order. And Greivous came close to beating them at times. Greivous wins this particular Kaggath due to an advantage in numbers and industry.

I'd like to look at the tactics of both. Both are experienced and proven generals and are very agressive. I see no clear advantage when it comes to strategy EXCEPT that MtU has Fett. With that in mind, I might give a slight tactical advantage to MtU. Also: we need to look at exactly what kind of plans are available to these guys. We need to look at their options. The bulk of Greivous's army is made up of B1 battle droids, which are only good (correct me if I'm wrong) overwhelming the enemy through numbers. MtU's army is made up of experienced war veterans. They can do many things. In this since, MtU has an advantage because his soldier type gives him more options in war. Am I making since? I think this indicates another advantage for MtU. Due to soldier quality he'll have more options and manueverability with his battle plans.

 

Despite these two points and the recent ones made by StarSquirrel (I think that's his name?) I still feel that Greivous will win. Just look at who he fought during the Clone Wars: an army significantly bigger then MtU's that had much better industry, and had the entire Jedi Order. And Greivous came close to beating them at times. Greivous wins this particular Kaggath due to an advantage in numbers and industry.

We cannot forget though as mefit pointed out that the Separatists where being aided by Sidious, and of course Dooku. Without Sidious Grievous will find it difficult to execute effective strategy and will suffer from a lack of intellegence on enemy movements. He will also not have effecitvely a sabotuer on the other side. And without Dooku he will have difficulty keeping the Sepratists leaders unified and supporting him, as well as other Sepratists worlds which may abadon a cyborg leader. Most likely as the fight goes on he will be stipped of everything apart from his droids armies and his factories.

 

However he only really need the droid armies to win, he has a powerful enough force to attack Dxun and perhaps kill Mandalore if he attempts to protect it. Mandalore did after all participate in the Second Battle of Dxun during the Mandalorians Wars - he may not be so lucky to escape alive with Grievous' deadly battle droids rampaging over the moon. This is at least how I see the Kaggath heading. Fight me!

Edited December 29, 2012 by Beniboybling

We cannot forget though as mefit pointed out that the Separatists where being aided by Sidious, and of course Dooku. Without Sidious Grievous will find it difficult to execute effective strategy and will suffer from a lack of intellegence on enemy movements. He will also not have effecitvely a sabotuer on the other side. And without Dooku he will have difficulty keeping the Sepratists leaders unified and supporting him, as well as other Sepratists worlds which may abadon a cyborg leader. Most likely as the fight goes on he will be stipped of everything apart from his droids armies and his factories.

 

However he only really need the droid armies to win, he has a powerful enough force to attack Dxun and perhaps kill Mandalore if he attempts to protect it. Mandalore did after all participate in the Second Battle of Dxun during the Mandalorians Wars - he may not be so lucky to escape alive with Grievous' deadly battle droids rampaging over the moon. This is at least how I see the Kaggath heading. Fight me!

 

I guess I missed Mefit's point concerning Greivous's lack of Dooku and especially Sidious. This certainly changes things. That's an excellent point. With that in mind (and my previous points) I give a clear tactics advantage to MtU. This battle suddenly seems like it is in the realm of winnable for MtU. With a advantage in troop quality, ship quality, and tactics, MtU is gonna give an excellent fight. I'd love to see him beat Greivous. Although a victory for MtU now seems to be possible, I still imagine that Greivous will win by a bit.

 

Greivous's greatest advantage (imo) is his industry. What industry does MtU have? To the best of my knowledge he commands a army, not a nation. Armies are great for fighting and all, but in a prolonged war, you need citizens and factories. What citizens does MtU have? I imagine he has some slaves, but not many due to his bombard-worlds tactics. He can recruit soldiers and mercenaries, but they won't be of the same quality as Mandos. Also, I don't see how MtU is gonna create ships quickly enough to make up for lost ships.

 

So industry and recruitment seems to be a big problem for MtU. I saw someone mention something about Mtu having War Forges though? What are those?

Edited December 29, 2012 by MasterMe

I guess I missed Mefit's point concerning Greivous's lack of Dooku and especially Sidious. This certainly changes things. That's an excellent point. With that in mind (and my previous points) I give a clear tactics advantage to MtU. This battle suddenly seems like it is in the realm of winnable for MtU. With a advantage in troop quality, ship quality, and tactics, MtU is gonna give an excellent fight. I'd love to see him beat Greivous. Although a victory for MtU now seems to be possible, I still imagine that Greivous will win by a bit.

 

 

You took the words right out of my mouth. This is exactly what I see happening in the Kaggath.

 

On another note though, I would like to point out these,Kandosii-type dreadnaught. I don't know numbers, but I can see these being very helpful in battle for the Mandalorians. Any information on them would be helpful though. I'll try to do more research in support of the Mandalorians as soon as possible.

 

For Mandalore!

 

EDIT: Is my link working?

Edited December 29, 2012 by Canino

Few things I'd like to point out .

 

Its to my Belief that the Mandalorians will not be satisfied with Driod kills.

They seek honor and glory with kills of equal to their own lives.

Driods are not living breathing creatures.

 

The Mandalorians will work extra hard to get to the Cowards Grievous and Ventress , just to get the filling of Glory they seek .

 

Explanation: My use of Coward is for those who run instead of standing their Ground .

As far as I can tell , no one in the StarWars Universe has ran from so many fights as Grievous and Ventress in the face of REAL Challenge .

 

While as I said before , I feel MtU vs Grievous one on one would be a losing fight for MtU. It is likely if well writen it would be 100times better for MtU to win being the odds are stacked against him and Grievous is a Cold Monster .

I feel alot of people feel closer to Grievous being hes in the Movies and Cartoons.........oh yeah and comics . But all we have of MtU is backstory , lore, and Comics . So even in our Reality hes at a disadvantage , being known is far better than not being known !

 

Edit: The reason I would give this to MtU on the Large Scale is the craving the Mandos will have for the final Battle with Grievous and Ventress . Both would be notches on their belts that would give them great Glory . The Mandalorians would likely be more focused than every to gaining that battle !

 

The Mandalorians about crippled the Republic once and without the aid of the many Jedi and Jedi Masters who joined the cause of the Republic , the Mandalorians might have one .

This battle only has 2 Lightsaber wielding beingings . Not either of them are Masters of anything , and both only Won fights against the lower end of the Jedi Order . Nothing of Note . While we can go all day about timeline of these fights , we have to take into respect that in order for MtU to have this fight he would have to have equal knowledge of the times and Equally evolved skill to those Mandolarians of those times as well.

Edited December 29, 2012 by mefit

I guess I missed Mefit's point concerning Greivous's lack of Dooku and especially Sidious. This certainly changes things. That's an excellent point. With that in mind (and my previous points) I give a clear tactics advantage to MtU. This battle suddenly seems like it is in the realm of winnable for MtU. With a advantage in troop quality, ship quality, and tactics, MtU is gonna give an excellent fight. I'd love to see him beat Greivous. Although a victory for MtU now seems to be possible, I still imagine that Greivous will win by a bit.

 

Greivous's greatest advantage (imo) is his industry. What industry does MtU have? To the best of my knowledge he commands a army, not a nation. Armies are great for fighting and all, but in a prolonged war, you need citizens and factories. What citizens does MtU have? I imagine he has some slaves, but not many due to his bombard-worlds tactics. He can recruit soldiers and mercenaries, but they won't be of the same quality as Mandos. Also, I don't see how MtU is gonna create ships quickly enough to make up for lost ships.

 

So industry and recruitment seems to be a big problem for MtU. I saw someone mention something about Mtu having War Forges though? What are those?

Don't get carried away now, MtU by no means has the advantage in ship and troop quality. B1 battle droids are admittedly blaster fodder, but they were designed to be. And Grievous has B2 battle droids, commando droids, droidekas, crab droids, tactician droids, commando droids, hailfire droids and those big scary airships. IMO these, in overwhelming numbers, decimate the Mandalorians on the ground. But MtU can still get the advantage in space and tactically in general. But then again the CIS navy did rival the Republic's in their golden era. And they also had a wealth of tacticians including tactician droids which are actually pretty good. (especially this second generation)

 

However in terms of industry e.g. planets, civilians, factories. I think that would begin to fall apart without Dooku or Sidious... still, he'd have more industry that Mandalore and could still invade Dxun

Few things I'd like to point out .

 

Its to my Belief that the Mandalorians will not be satisfied with Driod kills.

They seek honor and glory with kills of equal to their own lives.

Driods are not living breathing creatures.

 

The Mandalorians will work extra hard to get to the Cowards Grievous and Ventress , just to get the filling of Glory they seek .

 

Explanation: My use of Coward is for those who run instead of standing their Ground .

As far as I can tell , no one in the StarWars Universe has ran from so many fights as Grievous and Ventress in the face of REAL Challenge .

 

This argument works against Mandalore in every way.

 

You're right, the Mandalorians would not be satsfied with droid kills. There's no glory in it. Which means they will lack motivation on the battle field and ultimately loose the thrill of battle and wonder: why are we fighting this war again? With battle being all about glory for the Mandalorians, the lack of living beings to kill will only hinder their spirits.

 

If the Mandalorians know that Grievous and Ventress are cowards, how would killing them bring a Mandalorian glory? Being a coward is a major sign of being weak in Mandalorian culture, and they won't have the motivation you say they will to kill a coward.

 

BUT, if they do have this motivation, then any battle Grievous and Ventress are not at will seem like a waste of time to Mandalorians, and they will loose the motivation of glory in battle.

All it takes for Ventress to assassinate Mandalore is a simple Force Choke.

 

This isn't a Hollywood movie, if Ventress could kill him quick like that, she would. No amount of Beskar could save Mandalore from the Force.

However in terms of industry e.g. planets, civilians, factories. I think that would begin to fall apart without Dooku or Sidious... still, he'd have more industry that Mandalore and could still invade Dxun

 

I don't really understand this argument.

 

Grievous is at the height of his power, and attacking (what looks to be) a much smaller foe. Why would anybody be unhappy? Also, does this mean the Grievous gets the Sepratist War council, such as Nute Gunray? Because that only helps him, not hurts him.

All it takes for Ventress to assassinate Mandalore is a simple Force Choke.

 

This isn't a Hollywood movie, if Ventress could kill him quick like that, she would. No amount of Beskar could save Mandalore from the Force.

 

Both your post make sense.

There would be no honor or glory in this fight . It is highly likely it would never happen outside of this forums.

 

I cannot remember a fight Ventress had with none forceusers she ran from either . I am not sure about the force choke on MtU either . Revan could use force choke , but maybe he just was so inlove with the battle .

 

Maybe next we can put the Separatists Driod Army against the Yuuzhan Vong . Seems only fair .

I know almost every Star Wars fan hates the Vong but they are canon ..............

Edited December 29, 2012 by mefit

I keep seeing these posts about how Grievous is nothing without Sidious and Dooku, and I have to say that that is only partially true.

 

Sidious had Dooku get Grievous because he wanted a capable commander for his impressive droid armies. Sidious was not whispering in Grievous' ear and telling him what to do. The war effort was Grievous (and the other military commanders). Dooku served as the political icon for the Seperatist Alliance, and did not even bother with commanding troops. We read in Dark Rendezvous that Dooku doesn't want to command troops.

 

As for the loss of the Seperatist Alliance. Grievous could always use the Tarkin Doctrine to keep them in line, and we know that they are all cowards so that will work.

I don't really understand this argument.

 

Grievous is at the height of his power, and attacking (what looks to be) a much smaller foe. Why would anybody be unhappy? Also, does this mean the Grievous gets the Sepratist War council, such as Nute Gunray? Because that only helps him, not hurts him.

That is a good point, as long as Grievous is churning out battle droids their going to keep supporting him because for them war = money. However I think my argument still stands in that other sepratists supporters e.g former senators will want nothing to do with a war against Mandalorians unless they profit from it, and not all of them do. Nor will many of them want to be led by a cyborg general. However I agree with you that the important part of the Sepratist forces still stands, the droids armies and navies. I was just pointing out that the Sepratists won't have such a great infrastructure. Still more than MtU though.

 

And a very good point about morale, can't see any counter arguments for that.

 

Speaking of counter arguments no one has yet refuted my point about Grievous invading Dxun, curious.

 

P.S. is it just me or do you always side with the droids?

 

I keep seeing these posts about how Grievous is nothing without Sidious and Dooku, and I have to say that that is only partially true.

 

Sidious had Dooku get Grievous because he wanted a capable commander for his impressive droid armies. Sidious was not whispering in Grievous' ear and telling him what to do. The war effort was Grievous (and the other military commanders). Dooku served as the political icon for the Seperatist Alliance, and did not even bother with commanding troops. We read in Dark Rendezvous that Dooku doesn't want to command troops.

 

As for the loss of the Seperatist Alliance. Grievous could always use the Tarkin Doctrine to keep them in line, and we know that they are all cowards so that will work.

 

Here's the thing: it's not that Greivous isn't a great commander without Dooku and Sidious telling him what to do. I believe that Greivous often made his own successful plans. But we were rating Greivous earlier based off of his war with the Republic. Sidious was often pulling the strings to expose/weaken the Republic. Imagine how well Greivous would have done in the war without Sidious. He wouldn't have been quite as successful. That's the main point here I think.

Here's the thing: it's not that Greivous isn't a great commander without Dooku and Sidious telling him what to do. I believe that Greivous often made his own successful plans. But we were rating Greivous earlier based off of his war with the Republic. Sidious was often pulling the strings to expose/weaken the Republic. Imagine how well Greivous would have done in the war without Sidious. He wouldn't have been quite as successful. That's the main point here I think.

 

Grievous seemed to handle the Huk just fine, but that was back when he wasn't a cyborg.

 

At any rate. Grievous is an excellent commander in his own right and has the numbers and industry to overwhelm Mandalore. Not to mention that the destruction of any of Grievous' factories doesn't hurt Grievous that much. Remember that the CIS didn't have large garrisons unless blockading a planet, they were all stored in the Star Cruisers.

 

Let's take the Lucrehulk for example. One of them can carry almost 140,000 Battle Droids and 7,000 tanks. Now imagine ten or even fifty of them. That's roughly seven million droids and 350,000 tanks right there. But I doubt that's all the Lucrehulks Grievous has.

 

Really, Mandalore can destroy as many planets as he wants, but he wont put a real dent in Grievous' forces.

 

Edit: The numbers above are for the old Droid Control Ships. The new repurposed military vessels are a different story.

 

330,000 Battle Droids and almost 7,000 tanks aboard just one of them.

Edited December 29, 2012 by Aurbere

I keep seeing these posts about how Grievous is nothing without Sidious and Dooku, and I have to say that that is only partially true.

 

Sidious had Dooku get Grievous because he wanted a capable commander for his impressive droid armies. Sidious was not whispering in Grievous' ear and telling him what to do. The war effort was Grievous (and the other military commanders). Dooku served as the political icon for the Seperatist Alliance, and did not even bother with commanding troops. We read in Dark Rendezvous that Dooku doesn't want to command troops.

 

As for the loss of the Seperatist Alliance. Grievous could always use the Tarkin Doctrine to keep them in line, and we know that they are all cowards so that will work.

 

Its canon , I thought you were the great Canon keeper ?

Sidious made all the plans , made sure all the attacks by Grievous were not complete waste of time .

Grievous was the Face of the Battles , but he was just a commander doing what he was told PERIOD .

 

Before he was a Cyborg he was doing what he did in the movies , make attacks and run when they were losing . He almost died from it or did you forget that ?

 

He was not some Great General and when he was not needed no longer Anakin would have killed him like the rest !