Well, I'll be home in a couple of hours and I'm sure I'll be wiping along with the rest of you, and I'll get a feel for it myself

 

But I find it silly for anyone to claim "mathematical impossibility" on the first day.

 

yeah we are taking a break and returning tonight.

We want harder mechanics, not impossible enrage times. Enrage times are the lazy programmers failure program. Why make a difficult puzzle that takes skill when they can just add 500k HP and lower te enrage by 30 seconds.

There is skill involved in reducing dps downtime.

 

I tend to pull more on an ops dummy than I can in a real fight, but that is largely due to me being sloppy during the actual fights, and the fact that I can be sloppy and we STILL beat the enrage timer.

 

My first HM Styrak we enraged at 60%. The second time at 40%. Eventually we beat him, and with no additional gear. There was 60% worth of boss hp tied up in not playing smart.

 

If this fight is possible with perfect execution and absolute max dps at every moment, then I think it would be a pretty great fight to finally beat.

There is skill involved in reducing dps downtime.

 

I tend to pull more on an ops dummy than I can in a real fight, but that is largely due to me being sloppy during the actual fights, and the fact that I can be sloppy and we STILL beat the enrage timer.

 

My first HM Styrak we enraged at 60%. The second time at 40%. Eventually we beat him, and with no additional gear. There was 60% worth of boss hp tied up in not playing smart.

 

If this fight is possible with perfect execution and absolute max dps at every moment, then I think it would be a pretty great fight to finally beat.

 

I assure you, you are not telling us neckbeards anything revolutionary.

 

Here's the issue: We're playing as close to ideal as can reasonably be expected and nobody is within shouting distance of beating the enrage. Not one guild who logged on when servers went up has been able to complete this fight, and it's because the enrage timer is too short.

 

We're not missing mechanics, and we're squeezing as much dps out of our raiders as possible. It isn't enough because the fight is mathematically impossible as it exists right now.

Well, I'll be home in a couple of hours and I'm sure I'll be wiping along with the rest of you, and I'll get a feel for it myself

 

But I find it silly for anyone to claim "mathematical impossibility" on the first day.

 

I hate saying impossible. There's either something you are willing to put in all for and accomplish, something you are willing to put in all but come up short for, or things you aren't willing to give your all. Digital things are the only place this rule doesn't apply. I still don't like saying "impossible" in games. People use it as a crutch when they don't think they can before they give it a solid effort. Right now we're discussing if it's possible to do in 16man NiM, which we're saying is unreasonable into not doable. If we got within the best 16man pull % in our 8man, there wouldn't be a discussion on if it was impossible or not, we'd either have killed it by now or we'd still be in there. We weren't even in the realm of possibility with theoretical added burn times, and in the few flawless runs I've watched no one has gotten close to possible. Everyone in this thread who has been in there is saying the Same. Exact. Thing. Everyone who has not been in there is saying the Same. Exact. Thing. That should be all you need to know.

Edited June 12, 2013 by countpopeula

i was wondering what u guys doing in the storm part?... your sniper seems to be avoiding dmg with the roll... your marauders taking no dmg at all being together, i see 3-4 circles overlaping, our two marauders tried undying every time, they got dmg thru it... it does 15k dmg, when taking another explotion from someone else buffing to 20k in our parse... so not sure whats going on in there lol, unless i am missing something.

 

On the other hand, the dps is good, i guess, the parses says u doing 2.7... but even if 2.7 when pushing boss is decent, u have two marauders (Both dpsing thru the storm somehow) parsing lower, u are leth sniper... and both tanks dpsing.... we do that strat with tanks doing 0 dps on boss to avoid dmg... we push 3rd shield at 125k... you did at 160k, that with at least 150k tank dmg there... so or your healers arent doing much, or that parse is just showing buffed numbers from corrosive grenade on 3 targets plus the orbital on all 3 at start... so i am sure that dps is not the best possible, but it does seem like a REALLY tight enrage to a super hard fight...

we did what? like 20 attempts... i remember doing 120 one day on tanks nim EC.... kephess ha, wont even count... and we were 11th world that time (we were a bit worse than now)... so if everyone became Tired at 20 attempts, meh everyone became softcore... enjoying the good old easy fights... i think all the good guilds including us, are too arrogant with our "super good group" we find a fight thats harder than expected, hit enrage, do it 10 times, its 1st day NOT EVEN at night, theres a 5 page post of everyone QQing about it... i mean come on....

 

IF its Overtuned, that it might seem like it is overtuned, they will fix, if not, we will have to push thru... but its not even been half day and everyone "already assumed its impossible".... give it a 2-3 days or a week, then complain why "bioware havnt responded / fixed it", people have not spend 10% of the time it was spent in NiM EC... and this seems harder actually..... u think its bugged, fine, dont try it, wait for the fix , but dont start assuming things you dont know to make Everyone believe its impossible so no one tries it lol... let the people have fun wiping 1 week to an overtuned fight after all thats what everyone wanted in pts forums right? so stop complaining, then when they fix, there will be a 20 pages post on how they "made it just too easy"... you have to pick a side here, you want it hard, or you want it easy? but dont complain and QQ about everything lol.

 

TL : DR stop trying to convince everyone it is or it is not impossible, really, post your thread, bioware will look at it, if its impossible they wil fix, if not, we will have to do it like this, its not been 1 complete day and everyone is already QQing on a hard fight, when they were QQing on the "easy content", if you are so good, try to push the "impossible", if not, wait for the fix, but this is at least better than the cakewalk it was in PTS even if its overtuned.

I assure you, you are not telling us neckbeards anything revolutionary.

 

Here's the issue: We're playing as close to ideal as can reasonably be expected and nobody is within shouting distance of beating the enrage. Not one guild who logged on when servers went up has been able to complete this fight, and it's because the enrage timer is too short.

 

We're not missing mechanics, and we're squeezing as much dps out of our raiders as possible. It isn't enough because the fight is mathematically impossible as it exists right now.

I had been specifically speaking to mastirkal, who was making a point that a tight enrage timer takes no skill.

 

My counter is that a fight that is all about mechanics and doesn't have a tight enrage timer isn't as good as one that has both.

 

I can't specifically speak to this fight yet, as I won't get to it for another hour or so.

i was wondering what u guys doing in the storm part?... your sniper seems to be avoiding dmg with the roll... your marauders taking no dmg at all being together, i see 3-4 circles overlaping, our two marauders tried undying every time, they got dmg thru it... it does 15k dmg, when taking another explotion from someone else buffing to 20k in our parse... so not sure whats going on in there lol, unless i am missing something

 

I'll reply to this part.

 

It's my video. I'm the sniper. Roll will avoid the big damage of lightning field if timed correctly. Your marauders should not rely on undying rage, one of our attempts today we had both our marauders pop that cooldown and they both died. Your marauders have to split or they'll probably kill each other. This mechanic is not really cheesable unless you're a sniper or maybe a sorc.

Edited June 12, 2013 by FridgeLM

Your marauders should not rely on undying rage, one of our attempts today we had both our marauders pop that cooldown and they both died. Your marauders have to split or they'll probably kill each other.

 

Devasta, here - As a marauder, this damage is completely manageable in any case with the use of cloak of pain and saber ward. Undying rage did nothing for us.

I'm not the best player in the world or in the best raid group in the entire world. We have jobs, so excuse us for being bad. Don't call this impossible after a few hours.

 

I will be extremely disappointed in BioWare if this gets patched within the next couple of weeks, or even before someone defeats the content.

 

Btw, if you think you can only gear bracers as upgrades, there's this thing where you can alternate difficulty modes to pseudo-progress. I would think the best players in the world would have realized this.

Edited June 12, 2013 by Korse

I'll reply to this part.

 

It's my video. I'm the sniper. Roll will avoid the big damage of lightning field if timed correctly. Your marauders should not rely on undying rage, one of our attempts today we had both our marauders pop that cooldown and they both died. Your marauders have to split or they'll probably kill each other. This mechanic is not really cheesable unless you're a sniper or maybe a sorc.

 

I do one of two things. Both involve Force Camo. Either I time Cloak of Pain perfectly and the knockback refreshes the timer so it lasts for all of the channel and then run out at 4 seconds, and camo at 1 or I don't. If I time it properly, it will be up in time to use it again on the second lightning. If it's not, I replace it with Saber Ward. Undying Rage/Guarded by the Force does NOTHING to mitigate the lightning damage. Twice tested just to test it. CoP/SW + Force Camo leaves me at 30-50% HP depending on if I was targeted by Heirad right before lightning and if I was topped off or not.

didnt read the whole threat but...

we tried out asa nm today.. our group is no pro guild or something.

dont know (but believe in your posts) if enrage timer is impossible to reach.. we didnt even get to phase 3.

we only bet p1 with lets say 4-5 alives. our group is not bad and we beat everything so far the game gave us.

our main problem was the brutal incoming dmg (perhaps we missed a mechanic?!). we are all 80% 72 equiped.

we have soldier and smuggler heal (no sage) sry dont know the english word for the both classes^^...

and it seems nearly impossible to hold the group up. and our group tank+dps does ~ 11k dps for the most cases of the fights.

i'm sorry to ask... was this difficulty createt so only the best in the world can beat it?

 

greetings from germany (jar'kai sword)

Edited June 12, 2013 by BleiFinger

Has anyone actually screwed their lockout and moved onto Op9 and beyond to see if that content is indeed even "doable"?? Or is it just a mute point ATM as a "BROKEN" instance??

I'm not the best player in the world or in the best raid group in the entire world. We have jobs, so excuse us for being bad. Don't call this impossible after a few hours.

 

I will be extremely disappointed in BioWare if this gets patched within the next couple of weeks, or even before someone defeats the content.

 

Btw, if you think you can only gear bracers as upgrades, there's this thing where you can alternate difficulty modes to pseudo-progress. I would think the best players in the world would have realized this.

 

You one dem noobs who gonna run 4 mara deep:eek::eek:

I'm not the best player in the world or in the best raid group in the entire world. We have jobs, so excuse us for being bad. Don't call this impossible after a few hours.

 

I will be extremely disappointed in BioWare if this gets patched within the next couple of weeks, or even before someone defeats the content.

 

Btw, if you think you can only gear bracers as upgrades, there's this thing where you can alternate difficulty modes to pseudo-progress. I would think the best players in the world would have realized this.

 

Hey look another person who hasn't tried it thinks it's fine and the best guilds in the game need to l2p.

On the feedbacks that suggest the dev didn't test/tune encounters properly before release....

 

I believe it is a common apporach in the mmo industry that top tier boss encounters are (over)tuned beyond the playing skills of dev's inhouse testers. Developers regularly found the skill and improvisation of the top players exceed their expections. If in-house testers can clear the content, it tends to be not nightmare worthy.

Edited June 12, 2013 by Banegio

Btw, if you think you can only gear bracers as upgrades, there's this thing where you can alternate difficulty modes to pseudo-progress. I would think the best players in the world would have realized this.

 

So, you are telling me that the 2nd boss in this operation warrants that a fully geared in UW, itemized, proficiently adept at their specs so as to beat the previous difficulty mode nowhere near the enrage timer, needs to flip-flop difficulty modes to progress? Do you think that this is the intent of the developers?

 

I think not.

 

We regularly defeat all of HM SV, HM TFB, and HM GF in 2hrs 20m each Tuesday flawlessly, while talking about Dom's predispositions to foodstuffs and other fanciful perversions. A challenge is more than welcome, but in every other boss encounter, nightmare style, we expect that 20% or less danger of enrage, that is typical; but 40%? There is room for improvement on all fronts, but as somebody that has a excellent grasp for the bosses in this game, the enrage timer is unreasonable.

It amuses me that players who have not even attempted it are criticizing the top players/guilds in the world.

 

We do not have a problem with the difficulty or the mechanics. What we have a problem with is a mathematically impossible enrage timer given the current gear level.

 

What I am really looking forward to, is for every person who has posted in this thread with nothing meaningful to add other than "don't nerf it until I get to try it" to come back in here and admit that it was impossible, and cry for not only nerfs to the mechanics of the fight, but the enrage timer as well.

 

To be completely honest, KBD isn't even going to see the enrage as he and his guild will be wiping long before that happens.

 

Regards,

KK

On the feedbacks that suggest the dev didn't test/tune encounters properly before release....

 

I believe it is a common apporach in the mmo industry that top tier boss encounters are (over)tuned beyond the playing skills of dev's inhouse testers. Developers regularly found the skill and improvisation of the top players exceed their expections. If in-house testers can clear the content, it tends to be not nightmare worthy.

 

My guess is they had the people on the PTS who were anywhere from elite to dog**** in Arkanian and just were all "HEATH INCREASE BASED ON STAT PERCENT INCREASE TO UNDERWORLD EVEN THOUGH WE WROTE THE FORMULAS WHICH ARE CLEARLY NOT LINEAR".

Edited June 13, 2013 by countpopeula

Declaring a fight "mathematically impossible" is a ridiculous stretch, especially on day 1. For anyone who played WoW, Yogg+0 was considered "mathematically impossible" for weeks and that had far more guild parsing with much better tools than we have. I even remember people claiming dreadtooth over 5 stacks was impossible. I have yet to see the fight, we're starting tomorrow, but give it some time before making crazy claims. Be open to using different tactics. Adds may have to be ignored, players may have to be let die and rezed instead of clearing doom. If no one has come any closer by next week then something needs to be done.

Declaring a fight "mathematically impossible" is a ridiculous stretch, especially on day 1. For anyone who played WoW, Yogg+0 was considered "mathematically impossible" for weeks and that had far more guild parsing with much better tools than we have. I even remember people claiming dreadtooth over 5 stacks was impossible. I have yet to see the fight, we're starting tomorrow, but give it some time before making crazy claims. Be open to using different tactics. Adds may have to be ignored, players may have to be let die and rezed instead of clearing doom. If no one has come any closer by next week then something needs to be done.

 

I can completely appreciate what you're saying here, but there is a "but" coming from me. I stated this earlier, but I consider myself a very hard core raider. in WoW, with DnT, I have been apart of 14 US first and 15 World first kills in an MMO much more difficult and with more complex encounters than SWTOR.

 

In order to achieve that many firsts I've participated in some RIDICULOUS strategies and attempts, a lot of out of the box thinking to achieve kills. For 4 hours today we wiped at ~40% consistently. Tried different kill orders, tried ignoring adds, tried dragging mobs through Doom and Red Circle. Nothing. There is no mechanic we are missing. There is just a super short enrage timer that is not currently reasonable (can't speak for 16m this was all 8m).

 

I am all for making things more difficult (the healing requirement for this fight was upped from PTS which forces everyone to take better care of themselves). However, your point about Yogg-0 or "unkillable" bosses then being killed in WoW doesn't compare. in WoW there were more means of getting better than your current gear to kill bosses - whether those were Badges, Valor Points, or farming the bosses earlier in the instance. This is the 2nd boss in the instance, we are already BiS, and cannot get better gear aside from Writhering Horror.

 

This fight is overtuned, end of story. I'll eat my crow if someone kills it pre-nerf, but I sincerely doubt anyone will. Maybe some crazy euros.

Declaring a fight "mathematically impossible" is a ridiculous stretch, especially on day 1. For anyone who played WoW, Yogg+0 was considered "mathematically impossible" for weeks and that had far more guild parsing with much better tools than we have. I even remember people claiming dreadtooth over 5 stacks was impossible. I have yet to see the fight, we're starting tomorrow, but give it some time before making crazy claims. Be open to using different tactics. Adds may have to be ignored, players may have to be let die and rezed instead of clearing doom. If no one has come any closer by next week then something needs to be done.

 

None of this is possible. The adds collectively hit harder than Kelsara does. The tank on the adds will die if you don't kill them in a timely manner. You also cannot waste a battle rez in Phase 2 because if you lose a tank in the third phase because of Wither, which hits hard as hell, you wipe. You only have one battle rez, you're going to get multiple Dooms. 10 seconds of DPS loss from one of the players will not net 500k. Again. This fight has to be perfect. Right now, even done perfectly, you come up ~500k short.

 

Dreadtooth 5+ stack WAS impossible until they nerfed it, we took the same group at release as we did when we downed it the week after CG's world first. You simply couldn't keep up with the raid damage at release. People just forgot about it because it was an irrelevant world boss that did nothing but net bragging rights and a bonus boss. This is THE endgame. You can't progress without downing this boss. You can't get gear, you can't see the other fights, you can't gear for NiM SV. It needs to be possible, and right now, 8man isn't.

Maybe BW wants us to go 16man NiM, and gear up for 8man. its a crazy idea but will turn end game more of a challenge.

We know that 16man are harder to pull off, but maybe the enrage timer on that fight is more balance with the current gear(BiS 72)

just an idea

Edited June 13, 2013 by ErosGyne

Maybe BW wants us to go 16man NiM, and gear up for 8man. its a crazy idea but will turn end game more of a challenge.

We know that 16man are harder to pull off, but maybe the enrage timer on that fight is more balance with the current gear(BiS 72)

just an idea

 

Multiple 16 mans wiping at the same point.

Epic, just epic. Get better. You can't deal with the content in one day? Try harder the next day.

Just another example of how pve in this game is an afterthought and how this game is based around leveling and RPing. With the legacy buffs giving better quality of life to new players and alts of veterans and with constant cartel packs being released to help people invest time in their role play, I can see how Bioware doesn't have the time to invest into end game content. Quite frankly, most people realize they should move onto another game by the time they get there and all of you should have too by now.

 

Sincerely

 

Somnoms