Jump to content

Concealment and Lethality Operative/Scrapper and Ruffian Scoundrel Set Bonus Discussion


EricMusco

Recommended Posts

  • Dev Post

Hey everyone,

 

We wanted to take a moment to reach out to the community to collect ideas on set bonuses. We are looking for opinions on current and previous set bonuses as well as concepts for future. This thread will cover Concealment and Lethality Operatives/Scrapper and Ruffian Scoundrels.

 

Note: Our intent is to have set bonuses not increase DPS by more than 5%. Please keep this in mind when posting your suggestions.

 

Current Level 60 Set Bonuses (for reference)

  • 2-Piece: Laceration and Corrosive Assault or Sucker Punch and Brutal Shots increase damage dealt by 2% for 15 seconds. Cannot occur more than once every 30 seconds.
  • 4-Piece: Backstab and Lethal Strike or Backblast and Point Blank Shot's energy cost is reduced by 2.
  • 6-Piece: Activating Shiv and Veiled Strike or Blaster Whip and Bludgeon will grant Enforcer's Critical Bonus making your next Volatile Substance and Corrosive Assault or Blood Broiler and Brutal Shots critically hit. This effect can only occur once every minute.

Cheers, all!

The SWTOR Combat Team

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Been playing Concealment since launch, so a few of these things might sound familiar. Anyways, here's my two cents for what it's worth.

 

Concealment

2 Piece: Increases energy reserves by 5.

4 Piece: Shiv/Veiled strike grants 5-10% bonus to alacrity for 5s after use.

6 Piece: When used from stealth backstab critically hits the target (Cannot occur more than once per minute).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Been playing Concealment since launch, so a few of these things might sound familiar. Anyways, here's my two cents for what it's worth.

 

Concealment

2 Piece: Increases energy reserves by 5.

4 Piece: Shiv/Veiled strike grants 5-10% bonus to alacrity for 5s after use.

6 Piece: When used from stealth backstab critically hits the target (Cannot occur more than once per minute).

 

I gotta agree with this to a degree...not as game changing as say a Veng Jugg SB but it still makes enough of a difference to matter.

 

On a side note since devs are looking at this post I figure id say on a side note that SB isn't the reason IA Class is the lowest played (specifically Operatives). The Reason for that is when the devs took away abilities to balance PvP (which is getting old for PvE players having to deal with i might add) they didn't offer anything to replace what was lost and so the spec has lost its "character" all it is now is a bunch of stabs that if you dont look close enough they all look the same. FFS Vengeful Slam alone has more animation alone that the entire Concealment kit combined.

 

But I digress, This isn't the thread for such complaints so i'm gonna stop now :)

Edited by Damaind
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2pc - Blaster Volley now hits something and does not miss its target

4pc - blaster volley's conal is now increased by 5 meters wide

6pc - blaster volley immediately crits when it hits something (bc you know - right now it hits nothing)

 

 

But all jokes aside

 

2pc - fine leave as is.

 

4pc - reduces the cost of vital shot by 3 energy

 

6pc piece - fine as it is

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The 4-piece and the 6-piece are kind of lackluster for Ruffian. Energy management is too easy for the 4-piece to matter, and you use Brutal Shots so many times in a minute, that one being an autocrit is pretty meaningless. Maybe make Point Blank Shot be the autocrit?
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Can our 4 piece set bonus prevent us from being roll bugged?

 

Please?

 

In all seriousness though I think our set bonuses are fine just bland like every other class with the "2% damage" and "auto crit this or that"

 

Almost all the 2 and 4 piece set bonuses of all the dps classes have no meaningful impact on how you play the class and the 6 piece set bonus is your standard auto crit. Almost all the set bonuses in general are just like two useless set bonuses and one that has a some impact on the class. Two percent more damage for half the time and 10% reduced cost of ability are pretty lazy imo. Are they nice to have? Sure, but they have no impact on the class in general. No dps was thrilled to get his two piece set bonus so he could have 2% more damage. No tank was ecstatic to get his two piece set bonus so he could have 2% DR a third of the time.

 

There are hundreds of different things that you could do with set bonuses so they could have some impact on the way the class plays or handles. I would love to see some if not all of these set bonuses get rid of the "2% damage", "10% reduced cost" and "standard auto crit" but seeing as how this is being brought up now it seems unlikely the developers are looking to revamp the set bonuses as much as they are looking to tweak some of them.

 

Just out of curiosity I went and looked at set bonuses from WOW (not trying to start an mmo fight here) and while I didn't understand what they meant they were obviously important or changed some aspect of the play style of the class. Again while I didn't understand them they ALL seem like something that would have some sort of meaningful impact on the spec/class. In SWTOR about 2/3 of the set bonuses feel unnecessary or worthless.

 

Actually on live the 2 piece set bonus is a little bit annoying because it has the same icon as the auto crit making it slightly more annoying to try to figure out if you have your set bonus up or if you are just doing a tiny bit more damage. I know they're supposedly changing that in 4.0 (or at least looking into it) so that won't be an issue going forward but at the same time I don't know why this wasn't brought up earlier (why couldn't it just be a different color?).

 

TLDR: The entire set bonus system needs to be seriously looked at and revamped not just tweaked.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Anyone know if the 6-set when applied to Corrosive Assault & Brutal Shots, makes all 3 components of those attack auto-Crit?

As it stands without that auto-crit, using those attacks the 3 components are rolled separately for crit chance; so 1 roll for energy, 1 roll for internal (1), 1 roll for internal (2).

 

2-set - Fine as is

4-set - Mediocre, would prefer reduction in energy cost of Corrosive Dart by 5 energy

6-set - As current but for Ruffian/Lethality it should work on Point Blank Shot/Lethal Strike rather than current.

Edited by Dropfall
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think the 6 pc is fine, it really helps with reliably pulling off Concealment's initial burst, or even for nasty burst throughout a fight if you get the proc later on and set stuff up correctly. However, I feel like it doesn't have as much of an oomph in Lethality, since BS/Corrosive Assault doesn't hit for as much as it used to. But, the 4 pc is pretty much worthless (like.. the same as Precision Instruments worthless), and the 2 pc is meh.

 

I'd like to see the 4 pc apply to Corrosive Dart/Vital Shot and Shiv/Blaster Whip and Veiled Strike/Bludgeon instead, since I don't think either trees get any energy cost reductions to those abilities, and they're used pretty frequently in both trees. The original abilities don't cost much period.

 

The 2 pc... eh, I dunno, they're pretty mediocre on all classes. Just a boring +2% damage. I'd like something more interesting, but I don't know what to suggest. It almost feels like it could just be tacked on to some of the utility debuffs every class has received in their trees (increased tech damage on target, increased aoe damage, etc).

Edited by QuiveringPotato
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Been playing Concealment since launch, so a few of these things might sound familiar. Anyways, here's my two cents for what it's worth.

 

Concealment

2 Piece: Increases energy reserves by 5.

4 Piece: Shiv/Veiled strike grants 5-10% bonus to alacrity for 5s after use.

6 Piece: When used from stealth backstab critically hits the target (Cannot occur more than once per minute).

 

I'd like to see an alacrity buff for the 2pc instead, and keep the - energy cost on the 4pc.. however, this would mean having set bonuses that are different from all the other classes! Oh no, we must homogenize! :rolleyes:

 

If BW is willing to break away from that, though, getting back our old alacrity buffs would be quite snazzy.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 pc bonus is really the one that only matters for me, the other 2 set bonuses don't seem very game changing like the the jugg vengeance saberthrow for instance.

 

Energy management aint that hard except when you don't use your corrosive dart when you should, which if you open hard you gotta wait for energy to go back up or you will starve, so i guess a 2 or 4pc corrosive dart energy cost reduction would be pretty great for easier energy management...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2pc small alacrity buff

4pc give Carbine burst/ Blaster Volley a 270 degree arc and actually hit everything in its path

6pc allow the autocrit to be used on Back blast/ Lethal strike

 

I have asked the Devs to respond to another post about the Carbine Burst/ Blaster Volley animation and cone in another post but have been ignored so I figure that they are supposed to look as this post so maybe they will respond with this post.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ruffian 6 piece should have 2 charges like slingers smugglers luck bonus...

 

The spec is lacking compared to the slinger version, under performs in both pvp and pve mainly due to the fact there is no surge bonus on any of its talents dots are weak spread mechanic is terrible and all the dps of the spec is loaded into 1 ability, brutal shots.

 

It was skimmed over in 3.0 poorly and its embarrassing that the spec hasn't been sorted as a whole. Yet you have changed sorc 3-4 times now and made changed to sin and PT multiple times and left this spec one of the worst most useless spec for over 6 months

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So first setbonus.

I am gonna say that I like them and think that they do not need any adjustment.

2pc: Every dicipline has this. Some minor addition that I do not care about really.

4pc: Undervalued bonus. I play Lethality and use Lethal Strike a lot and I barrely energy cap. Think I had 20 uses in a recent parse. That means 40 energy saved. Obviously I must have had some energy cap in there (adrenaline probe) so some wasted energy, but I would dare to say that 30-ish from that saved energy was effectivly used for other abilities instead of free fillers.

6pc: Undervalued for Lethality. People mention it should be on Lethal Strike instead. My numbers show otherwise.

 

This is some ToS sm I did this weekend I think. All numbers are averages and rounded.

I do not have the 6pc bonus yet.

Average per activation numbers are taken from Star Parse.

Malaphar

CA normal: 6836 - CA crit: 9989 - Damage increase: 3153

LS normal: 8705 - LS crit 10644 - Damage increase: 1939

CA wins, although damage boost from Malaphar makes this unfair I think.

 

Walkers

CA normal: 5876 - CA crit: 8789 - Damage increase: 2913

LS normal: 7132 - LS crit 8599 - Damage increase: 1467

 

Underlurker

CA normal: 6179 - CA crit: 8658 - Damage increase: 2506

LS normal: 7239 - LS crit 9156 - Damage increase: 1917

 

Commanders

skipped because I often used CA with just 1 DoT. This means that the average damage of CA is way lower than it would have been.

I can do math and stuff, but dont feel like calculating the possible average.

 

Revan

CA normal: 5677 - CA crit: 8330 - Damage increase: 2653

LS normal: 6801 - LS crit 8745 - Damage increase: 1944

 

While these averages cannot be 100% accurate, I do think that they represent the result very well. The damage addition on CA (Corrosive Assault) is greater than it would have been on Lethal Strike. This assumes both abilities used as often as possible.

Keep in mind that delaying Lethal Strike for a stealthed crit one results in the following losses:

- Less Lethal Strike uses, means less 20% damage bonus for DoTs uptime.

- Less uses means also that the auto crit would have to compensate for the lost damage.

- Chances of wasting an auto crit proc because of the delays.

 

I seriously doubt that putting the auto crit on Lethal Strike would compensate for those losses.

The 4-piece and the 6-piece are kind of lackluster for Ruffian. Energy management is too easy for the 4-piece to matter, and you use Brutal Shots so many times in a minute, that one being an autocrit is pretty meaningless. Maybe make Point Blank Shot be the autocrit?

Yes you use CA way more often so you won't see any drastic chance in the crit %, but it is the better option damage wise.

Ofcourse this assumes that all 3 Corrosive Assault ticks crit, since they are called the same.

 

Ruffian 6 piece should have 2 charges like slingers smugglers luck bonus...

Slingers got 1 extra crit per minute, just like everyone else. Smuggler's Luck auto crit has been part of the Slinger since 1.0 if my memory serves me right. (although 3.0 changed the abilities that crit).

Giving Ruffian 2 charges means that it gets 2 auto crits per minute from the setbonus which is 1 more than all the other diciplines.

 

The spec is lacking compared to the slinger version, under performs in both pvp and pve mainly due to the fact there is no surge bonus on any of its talents dots are weak spread mechanic is terrible and all the dps of the spec is loaded into 1 ability, brutal shots.

First of all, yes I do think Ruffian needs some love. Probably using the old bug as a standard feature would help alot. (the bug that would let that one ability tick twice on Brutal Shots internal ticks).

You do not need a surge bonus to be able to perform well.

I personally feel that the damage of the DoTs are fine. Although I would not mind a slight boost in the dicipline itself for DoT damage. Like I said, I do think Ruffian needs some love.

And I have to say that the spread mechanic feels a lot better now. Besides the cone being awefull every now and then ofcourse.

 

It is true that most damage is directly from Brutal Shots. However I would argue that it does not matter. It is a single target dicipline and Brutal Shots might win on the scoreboard, its reliance on the majority of your other abilities make it so I do not care. It would be nothing without them so indirectly the other abilities contribute as well.

 

It was skimmed over in 3.0 poorly and its embarrassing that the spec hasn't been sorted as a whole. Yet you have changed sorc 3-4 times now and made changed to sin and PT multiple times and left this spec one of the worst most useless spec for over 6 months

Sorc was generally just a nerf.

Assassin depends on the dicipline you play. Hatred hates it, Deception and Darkness are somewhat happier.

PT needed a buff.

 

Again yes we need some love. But calling it "one of the worst most useless spec for over 6 months" is overdoing it.

Edited by Whojoo
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Again yes we need some love. But calling it "one of the worst most useless spec for over 6 months" is overdoing it.

 

From your own post

 

Malphar your only 1400 dps above what a PT tank does on that fight.

 

Walkers 1000 dps behind a good PT SIN or mara

 

Underlurker 2k behind a PT

 

Commanders I do more dmg tanking right side in dps gear

 

Cant really comment on your revan pull as I dont know how many stacks u had to get cleansed on 1st phase or weather your in or out of shield for grenades on hk.

 

The spec is not performing as well as other melee dps specs and never has been since 3.0

Edited by Loki_
Link to comment
Share on other sites

From your own post

 

Malphar your only 1400 dps above what a PT tank does on that fight.

 

Walkers 1000 dps behind a good PT SIN or mara

 

Underlurker 2k behind a PT

 

Commanders I do more dmg tanking right side in dps gear

 

Cant really comment on your revan pull as I dont know how many stacks u had to get cleansed on 1st phase or weather your in or out of shield for grenades on hk.

 

The spec is not performing as well as other melee dps specs and never has been since 3.0

 

1. Operative is not my main. I know how to do everything in theory and on a dummy, but my experience with operative as dps in ops is limited.

 

2. These fights were Story Mode

 

3. My gear is 186/192 with 192 MH and 198 OH.

 

4. PT is OP at Underlurker. They "cheat" with their utilities for extra dps. So a comparrison with a PT on lurker is kind of invalid.

 

I am not saying that I could not have hit more, because I could have. Although considering my gear and experience I am quite pleased with my result on Walkers.

But you could've seen from my damage that I do not wear 198 BiS stuff and I have a feeling you did compare me with 198 BiS people.

 

I just grabbed a recent ops to see if the 6pc on Lethal Strike would be stronger than on CA or not.

 

Now to respond to some bosses:

Malaphar - I had to step out of the circle to help on adds, so lost stacks.

Walkers - pleased with result

Underlurker - Probably could have hit more and probably will if I could solo an add.

Commanders - I suck at this fight, no matter the class/spec.

Revan - Could have pushed for more, but had to heal a bit in P2 + revive a healer who was somewhere in the distance. But still, I could have pushed for more and I was aiming for a 3k minimum, prefered a bit higher.

 

Look I do think we need some love, which is one thing we agree on. But I am certain that an experience Lethality Operative should be able to pull his own weight in the majority of the fights.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

To put it simple...you can change the SB all you want but it wont make a difference. Operatives are behind every other melee dps in numbers and utility (tanks sometimes too!) since the removal of certain abilities. I'm not asking for the abilities back but compensation is needed for the loss... were simple behind....
Link to comment
Share on other sites

So my generally worthless opinion is

 

2piece : keep it how it is, it just keeps everything in line and there is no reason to get all crazy

 

4piece: worthless, for both specs, energy management is something that can be done in your sleep because it's too easy, in most fights where there is any sort of motion your regen is fine and not to mention the fact that leth has C-grenade on more than 1 target so the chances of the energy proc to happen is much higher, this set bonus is only good for the parse heros who get off on their perfect rotations.

 

Something for conc could be it increases the damage of acid blade by a % because it's generall a tickle of a dot now, or something really crazy, lower the cool down of back stab by 3 seconds :rak_03:(Ik a pipe dream) this would probably throw something's out of Wack with rotations but I pvp mainly so more stabby stabby;)

 

For leth I really couldn't tell you what a good 4 piece change would be, it's not really coming to me ATM

 

6piece: for conc it's fine but for leth, ehh it's really under whelming while I do like the idea of having the double charge critical chance for leth as the 6 set bonus I think it would be a bit too bursty for the actual design, I think it would be better though for leth to lower the internal cool down of the proc from 1 minuet to 30 seconds, this way they can get more damage out of it with out throwing the burst out of Wack

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 3 weeks later...

2 piece: Every knife attack applies the acid blade armor penetration buff and dot to the target.

 

4 piece: Backstab now knocks down the target when used from stealth.

 

6 piece: You can now lolroll without a cooldown and it does not respect the GCD. In addition if you roll into a target you can now steal 300 credits from their bank.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 1 month later...
×
×
  • Create New...