And what is wrong with picking a spec as a personal preference?

Just think it the other way around, if spec A is far superior in damage, why would anyone choose B other than personal preference? (i assume A is sustained and B is burst for you)

 

The main focus of a dps class is to do damage, but how you do it, or the utilities/buffs you get in every spec should be different enough to let you pick between them (but that is a different topic of discussion), if not you have wasted time and resources in something very few will take.

 

 

 

Actually Anni had always higher potential output than the others specs, not saying that it performed better always, some fights were designed not to be sustained and worked better with burst.

 

Except that we have been at the point Carnage is great for every fight while Anni is only good on some so there is no need to play Anni at all.

Sadly, the rotation is garbage in anni.

Yep, it has been since 3.0.

 

I still can't get my head round how anyone could have thought Anni needed a 3rd dot. Anni's 2.X. class design was a masterpiece. Everything after that ultimately lead me to quitting to play this game regularly.

Fury / Concentration is now one of the weakest class in the game, ofcourse someone can say that they have some CC immunity, but in PvE this Spec sucks. I dont think that 120-150 DPS buff is enough to get Fury / Concentration into planned DPS Position.

 

Damage Groupings for Damage Dealing Disciplines (by BioWare)

 

 

I dont want to be rude, but i dont think that only 120-150 DPS buff will get Fury / Concentration on planned place in BioWare tab. Fury / Concentration (-2.9%) is now worst than Virulence / Dirty Fighting (-0.24%) i dont know what BioWare taking as standart, but this buff is ridiculous. Get Hightened Power back to 9% (up from 5%) and bring back Additional damage on Slash and that will do the trick. x-)

Edited August 10, 2017 by SkyEye

I refuse the concept of burst being minor in total damage,

 

Graphic should be like this Burst vs Sustained

 

PS: Graphic is tweaked to have a similar DPS to be able to watch both lines of DPS, also not to have too much data, but the concept is understable. Burst have "windows" when damage is top and valleys when damage is almost anecdotal while sustained has a growing curve and then stabilizes.

In long periods of time DPS should be similar (in ideal conditions) (we can discuss what "long" should be, but it is another topic) .

 

Sure, in pvp most people would choose burst over sustained (but they already do), in pve you can choose over your favorite way, knowing the final result is the same , just the way to achieve it, is different.

 

Logicaly Suistan Discipline must have higher DPS output. If Sustain and Burst has same DPS output at the moment it'll be nonsense to play sustained, if you want same DPS output for burst and sustained tell me one reason why play Sustain?

 

Sustain + Harder Rotation = Higher DPS

Burst + Medium Rotation = Lower DPS

Edited August 10, 2017 by SkyEye

Logicaly Suistan Discipline must have higher DPS output. If Sustain and Burst has same DPS output at the moment it'll be nonsense to play sustained, if you want same DPS output for burst and sustained tell me one reason why play Sustain?

 

Sustain + Harder Rotation = Higher DPS

Burst + Medium Rotation = Lower DPS

 

Why does sustain must have higher dps?

Don't mix concepts sustained doesn't HAVE TO BE a harder rotation and BURST doesn't HAVE TO BE simpler rotation.

I assume if the burst rotation were more complex ,you would agree it has to be higher?

 

Between ideal conditioned specs ( Dps ranking 248 ilvl) we get this:

 

- Watchman 10336 dps 2.29%

- Combat 10150 dps 0.45%

-Concentration 9828 dps -2.74%

 

AVG 10104 dps.

 

From my point of view (that you may agree or not), i would have all the specs in a +-3%, so either we down watchman or we up concentration (i prefer the latest), and you would choose the spec from your preference in how they are played, or the buffs/utilities they provide.

 

THAT IS MY ARGUMENT.

-----

Now , please, what is yours? You think complex rotations need to be rewarded? (Ok, why sustain have to be more complex then?) (and how you define complex? more buttons to push? debuffs to take care of? it is easier to control a 18s rotation or a 45s one? ) You think melee has to be higher than ranged? You think a pure dps class have to be higher than a hybrid one?

 

Be careful, cause we enter in another kind of topic than we were previously debating.

Snip

 

Lmao you ignore all the good arguments Elethon made, take 1 bad one from someone else. If you want arguments you look at other posts.

 

I gotta admit "THAT IS MY ARGUMENT" cracked me up tho.

Why does sustain must have higher dps?

Don't mix concepts sustained doesn't HAVE TO BE a harder rotation and BURST doesn't HAVE TO BE simpler rotation.

I assume if the burst rotation were more complex ,you would agree it has to be higher?

 

Between ideal conditioned specs ( Dps ranking 248 ilvl) we get this:

 

- Watchman 10336 dps 2.29%

- Combat 10150 dps 0.45%

-Concentration 9828 dps -2.74%

 

AVG 10104 dps.

 

From my point of view (that you may agree or not), i would have all the specs in a +-3%, so either we down watchman or we up concentration (i prefer the latest), and you would choose the spec from your preference in how they are played, or the buffs/utilities they provide.

 

THAT IS MY ARGUMENT.

-----

Now , please, what is yours? You think complex rotations need to be rewarded? (Ok, why sustain have to be more complex then?) (and how you define complex? more buttons to push? debuffs to take care of? it is easier to control a 18s rotation or a 45s one? ) You think melee has to be higher than ranged? You think a pure dps class have to be higher than a hybrid one?

 

Be careful, cause we enter in another kind of topic than we were previously debating.

 

Sustain must have higher DPS cause Burst has damage spikes. If they've had same damage output, you (as burst) will have advantage of damage spikes that Sustained don't have. That's the Simple Fact and the reason why BioWare make a tab where Suistaned should have 5% more DPS than Burst. That mean Combat need a big nerf, cause at the moment he's above his planned damage output.

Edited August 10, 2017 by SkyEye

Lmao you ignore all the good arguments Elethon made, take 1 bad one from someone else. If you want arguments you look at other posts.

 

I gotta admit "THAT IS MY ARGUMENT" cracked me up tho.

When someone quotes me, I expect them to be my words.

 

 

Sustain must have higher DPS cause Burst has damage spikes. If they've had same damage output, you (as burst) will have advantage of damage spikes that Sustained don't have. That's the Simple Fact and the reason why BioWare make a tab where Suistaned should have 5% more DPS than Burst. That mean Combat need a big nerf, cause at the moment he's above his planned damage output.

 

I'm starting to think your comprehension of the language is not as good as it needs to be, burst means they have peaks and valleys in the damage output, how high are the peaks and how long are the valleys determine the overall dps, while the called sustained has a growing curve until it achieves the max and it stays there. Those are the characteristics of those two models.

 

How efficient they are depends on the conditions the encounter has ( is it tank&spank? it has lot of movement? it has differencial phases? ... )

 

Bioware can (and does) fix their damage (or dps) goals where they want (and probably will do as you like) but if history in this game (or others) have taught us something is that having one spec overpowering two others is not good.

 

Again, (as mentioned in almost every post I have made in this topic) the choosing between spec should be determined by preference of playstile and buffs/utilities they have, not the overachieving of dps of one spec over others.

Edited August 10, 2017 by Aldael

Sustain must have higher DPS cause Burst has damage spikes. If they've had same damage output, you (as burst) will have advantage of damage spikes that Sustained don't have. That's the Simple Fact and the reason why BioWare make a tab where Suistaned should have 5% more DPS than Burst. That mean Combat need a big nerf, cause at the moment he's above his planned damage output.

 

I will say this one time only because I am typing from a mobile with bad connection.

Carnage doesn't need and won't receive a huge nerf just because 20 guys can clip ferocity in a dummy parse and even less in an actual fighting environment.

Devs will not balance carnage around clipping vicious throw and dual saber throw.

Facts

I will say this one time only because I am typing from a mobile with bad connection.

Carnage doesn't need and won't receive a huge nerf just because 20 guys can clip ferocity in a dummy parse and even less in an actual fighting environment.

Devs will not balance carnage around clipping vicious throw and dual saber throw.

Facts

 

Yeah that's in the same line what I wrote above: Devs have several times not been able to foresee what good Carnage players were going to do with the mechanics they designed. See the double Gore (now Ferocity) window thing (Devs: "We were surprised, that was never intended") or clipping ever since the travel time/damage registration difference had been discovered. What's more, even when that was already known for Vicious Throw, they introduced yet another ability with a long delay from activation to damage registration (TST).

 

Has the Ferocity buff ever been altered to account for ability activation rather than damage registration? Or has the long asked for stack system for Ferocity been implemented? Or any other simple solution that would make it actually possible to balance the spec on the basis of what it was intended for to be played?

 

Well...

 

However, I see no logic in saying: Devs failed to foresee how more DPS was going to be squeezed out of the spec and I therefore demand they continue to pretend they're not aware of the imbalance this has been creating.

 

It'd be much more logical to turn Ferocity into a stack based ability and then rebalance Marauder sustained spec against burst spec the way it's supposed to be done by BW's own proclaimed standards.

 

BTW: I will also only write this once in this thread. Although I'm at my desktop, but I've been writing this too often in other threads in the last three years ^^

Deleted.

Damm mobiles...

Edited August 10, 2017 by giorgo

I'm starting to think your comprehension of the language is not as good as it needs to be, burst means they have peaks and valleys in the damage output, how high are the peaks and how long are the valleys determine the overall dps, while the called sustained has a growing curve until it achieves the max and it stays there. Those are the characteristics of those two models.

 

I give you credit you did some thinking, but I think you'd be better off - and also the matter discussed -, if you dropped a bit of the attitude you got going :-)

 

I will try and yet explain it from another angle, going back to the fight mechanics I listed. (We could probably shorten the discussion if you had played those fights both on sustained and burst specs of the same class in the same difficult mode. Because then, your could experience your misunderstanding first hand: Try play Operator IX NiM on Telekinetics Sage (yay!) vs. Balance (meh) or Tyrans on Gunnery (meh) and afterwards Assault (yay!).

 

However, I will try to explain it from the model you are trying to defend. Key point: The damage spikes you got in your burst curve are a huge (!!!) asset on any kind of combat situation that is not a dummy! For almost every fight - except stupidly easy ones like Nefra - there will be downtime for dps players. And after every phase of downtime all burst classes that newly engage their target will profit from the initial spike in their curve. The same goes for target swapping, since all sustained classes are heavily reliant on dots, meaning frqeuent target swaps with short living adds hurts their effectiveness. So if burst classes overall DPS is as high as sustained classes PLUS the huge benefit in downtime heavy or add heavy combat, you would need to play burst classes on everything but Nefra - if your objective is effective dpsing.

 

I tend to agree, though, that looking at class design now in comparison to vanilla, Devs have gone a little too far down the route of separating sustained and burst specs, basically eliminating "inbetween" specs, though their listing proclaims Fury or Dot Slinger to be. Saying, I'd make the spikes and valleys less drastic on burst classes, but I'd also decrease ramp up time and dot durations for sustained specs in general. However, a significant difference in long term output between specs that profit from peaks in their dps curve to those that don't must remain.

I give you credit you did some thinking, but I think you'd be better off - and also the matter discussed -, if you dropped a bit of the attitude you got going :-)

 

I will try and yet explain it from another angle, going back to the fight mechanics I listed. (We could probably shorten the discussion if you had played those fights both on sustained and burst specs of the same class in the same difficult mode. Because then, your could experience your misunderstanding first hand: Try play Operator IX NiM on Telekinetics Sage (yay!) vs. Balance (meh) or Tyrans on Gunnery (meh) and afterwards Assault (yay!).

 

However, I will try to explain it from the model you are trying to defend. Key point: The damage spikes you got in your burst curve are a huge (!!!) asset on any kind of combat situation that is not a dummy! For almost every fight - except stupidly easy ones like Nefra - there will be downtime for dps players. And after every phase of downtime all burst classes that newly engage their target will profit from the initial spike in their curve. The same goes for target swapping, since all sustained classes are heavily reliant on dots, meaning frqeuent target swaps with short living adds hurts their effectiveness. So if burst classes overall DPS is as high as sustained classes PLUS the huge benefit in downtime heavy or add heavy combat, you would need to play burst classes on everything but Nefra - if your objective is effective dpsing.

 

I tend to agree, though, that looking at class design now in comparison to vanilla, Devs have gone a little too far down the route of separating sustained and burst specs, basically eliminating "inbetween" specs, though their listing proclaims Fury or Dot Slinger to be. Saying, I'd make the spikes and valleys less drastic on burst classes, but I'd also decrease ramp up time and dot durations for sustained specs in general. However, a significant difference in long term output between specs that profit from peaks in their dps curve to those that don't must remain.

 

My attitude tends to get that way when I present my arguments (that people can share or not) and people (not you) dismiss them with a "you know nothing" or "cause I said so" remark. If people think mine are flaw, my expectations are that they refute them (or show me the flaw) with arguments (reasoned).

 

Well, I must inform that I have played (and completed) NiM content in various roles and specs, I have played telekinetics sage and balance (even seer) although I haven't done the trooper (primarily cause is it not my cup of tea class), I have done sentinel in every spec and iteration (yes even the hybrid smash+dot build, that I personally hated) to complete NiM content.

 

It seems you are trying to design a spec (or a damage output model) to accommodate the encounters ingame, well, that is one way to do it, personally I don't think it is the more efficient way (as usually encounter come after the design of class and new encounters would make you change design to balance them everytime).

 

Some classes and specs have "easier" ways to deal with mechanics in encounters (f.e. swtor is more ranged friendly than melee) rendering them (in some cases) non existent.

In NiM different classes and specs have different tasks and being the top damage over other members by a large margin usually is not the defining step to beat the encounter. (Commander Draxus in DF is a wave boss, and it is more important who interrupts first, which add is damaged first, or how you kite than the damage output of the sustained/burst)

 

I'm not against changes in classes, to prevent not foreseen mechanics, to balance them out, I certainly think some changes are needed for the sentinel class, but not major on the damage (concentration needs a buff on that end).

Edited August 11, 2017 by Aldael

I'll stick to Annihilation then. Fury's changes don't seem that relevant for now

I'll stick to Annihilation then. Fury's changes don't seem that relevant for now

 

Sadly so. This way there's still no place for Fury in PvE - unless they nerf Carnage harder than they can afford to...

Honestly, I think a big quality of life change to Fury/Carnage (and to healthily separate the two specs) would be to give Fury the Sunder Armor debuff, and Carnage the AoE damage debuff. This could better differentiate Carnage as the go-to aoe spec (especially since it ACTUALLY BENEFITS from AoE damage buffs in its single target rotation), and Fury as a quasi-burst spec with lackluster AoE (the weakest of the three specs).

 

An armor debuff doesn't hugely help Carnage when they have a repeated buff which gives them the ability to ignore armor anyway...

 

I'd like to see Massacre/Sweeping Slash apply the AoE debuff to damaged targets, and Raging Burst/Smash to apply Sunder Armor.

Honestly, I think a big quality of life change to Fury/Carnage (and to healthily separate the two specs) would be to give Fury the Sunder Armor debuff, and Carnage the AoE damage debuff. This could better differentiate Carnage as the go-to aoe spec (especially since it ACTUALLY BENEFITS from AoE damage buffs in its single target rotation), and Fury as a quasi-burst spec with lackluster AoE (the weakest of the three specs).

 

An armor debuff doesn't hugely help Carnage when they have a repeated buff which gives them the ability to ignore armor anyway...

 

I'd like to see Massacre/Sweeping Slash apply the AoE debuff to damaged targets, and Raging Burst/Smash to apply Sunder Armor.

 

I quite like that idea :-)

At the moment Fury is the best PVP spec for marauder. It's very strong and has massive DPS ouput and it's close to being a FOTM class.

 

Every time I play Fury, I detroy my Carnage DPS numbers which increase by 20 to 30%. So I don't understand why Fury is considered the weakest.

 

Believe me, Played right it's one of the strongest PVP specs in the game at the moment.

 

This buff is really not something to get excited about. I wonder what happens to carnage... which is a very nice spec, much better playstyle than fury but the fact that I get shut down.. CC'd all the time, puts it far behind Fury for me. EVEN if it has much bigger dps potential.

At the moment Fury is the best PVP spec for marauder. It's very strong and has massive DPS ouput and it's close to being a FOTM class.

 

Every time I play Fury, I detroy my Carnage DPS numbers which increase by 20 to 30%. So I don't understand why Fury is considered the weakest.

 

Believe me, Played right it's one of the strongest PVP specs in the game at the moment.

 

This buff is really not something to get excited about. I wonder what happens to carnage... which is a very nice spec, much better playstyle than fury but the fact that I get shut down.. CC'd all the time, puts it far behind Fury for me. EVEN if it has much bigger dps potential.

 

The majority of players who contributed to this thread were doing so from a PVE standpoint.

 

One of the reasons why the spec is underperforming in PVE is exactly because it's so effective in PVP due to its CC immunity that buffing it's output (which needs to be done for PVE where CC immunity is not at all an asset but lack of pure DPS is very much a problem) would make it too strong in PVP. BW has historically always been extra careful about buffing Fury's DPS, since it's always been one of the strongest specs in PVP.

 

Which is why I wrote above that as long as BW refuses to introduce PVP specific ability effects/values and/or PVP specific talents/utilities (as is common practice in many other MMOs), classes in this game will never be balanced neither in PVE nor PVP.

Edited August 12, 2017 by Ardarell_Solo

Every time I play Fury, I detroy my Carnage DPS numbers which increase by 20 to 30%. So I don't understand why Fury is considered the weakest.

 

Believe me, Played right it's one of the strongest PVP specs in the game at the moment.

 

This buff is really not something to get excited about. I wonder what happens to carnage... which is a very nice spec, much better playstyle than fury but the fact that I get shut down.. CC'd all the time, puts it far behind Fury for me. EVEN if it has much bigger dps potential.

 

While you're right about Fury, where I think people see Carnage as being better is the absurd amount of burst it can get in about 4 seconds. Fury has the tools to succeed for sure, but Carnage has much higher burst, even if it's less consistent, and the playstyle is more fun to a lot of people so everyone tends to lean that way.

 

I personally am a Carnage main and I look my damage charts at the end of a match sometime and scratch my head on how I barely break 2k DPS when I'm annihilating opponents' health bars.

While you're right about Fury, where I think people see Carnage as being better is the absurd amount of burst it can get in about 4 seconds. Fury has the tools to succeed for sure, but Carnage has much higher burst, even if it's less consistent, and the playstyle is more fun to a lot of people so everyone tends to lean that way.

 

I personally am a Carnage main and I look my damage charts at the end of a match sometime and scratch my head on how I barely break 2k DPS when I'm annihilating opponents' health bars.

 

I agree. Carnage is a single target burst spec. It kills. It doesn't farm numbers.... unless you see a baddie spamming sweeping slash.

 

Anyway, I'd rather play a rage jugg over fury mara. Same spec slightly different.

Edited August 16, 2017 by Rion_Starkiller

Hey eric,

 

i have a question who is bugging me for quite some time now. There are some operation bosses who arent in particular friendly to the fury/concentration discipline of guardian/sentinel - juggernaut/marauder like for example core endphase in temple of sacrifice final fight against revan. The main issue in my opinion is zealous leap/obliterate from its animation you r like 6-7 metres outside if used.Will there be any changes? It makes me kinda sad that this discipline is not really recommendable for this or similiar fights in operations.

So Erica is this spec ever going to be as intended? As a semi burst and semi AOE? I mean I'll take my hat off and say the burst side is pretty awesome but lacks in AOE! At least buff smash or change the Kinectic dmg from Force crush to affect enemies in a radius? I mean I'd love the Force choke proc to be changed to make it more useful instead of 15 seconds cd decrease maybe something like you can choke multiple enemies? I hate Bioware for this they really know how to make things boring without that zest of life making abilities awesome really giving you choice! Making you feel more powerful!