Also to settle the above post's point, the Ravager wasn't under Revan's command, at all, it was Saul Karath's flagship, who didn't become Revan's subordinate until he betrayed the Republic and joined the splinter Sith Empire, he doesn't even follow Revan into the unknown regions, he remains a Rear Admiral in the Republic Navy.

 

It was only seen at Dxun and then Malachor V where it was 'destroyed' and Karath took up the Leviathan.

My mistake. I had assumed that, as the Ravager was part of the Republic fleet that fought the Mandos, it was under Revan's command (the Revan Wookieepedia article [i know, I know, not the best source] says Revan took "overall command of the Republic's war effort.").

EDIT: Ah, thanks for the clarification on this matter OP

IMPORTANT ANNOUNCEMENT: THE RAVAGER IS OFFICIALLY EXCLUDED FROM THIS BATTLE

 

Reason: No Nihilus, no Ravager - it's a ghost ship and would fall apart with out him. Traya having the Ravager would be an unfair representation of her power base, as she has no power to keep the Ravager intact. By resurrecting the Ravager the ship became part of Nihilus's power base exclusively, as technically it is an extension of his abilities.

 

That is all.

Then Traya loses any space battle, the Ravager would be the SSD of this situation, without it even the Interdictor warship wouldn't be a good enough match to face off numerous Hammerheads.

That disqualification basically loses her the most important scenario of the war, her fleets being able to face off against other similar size fleets in guerilla attacks, personally I don't see it as fair at all, it was already hard enough to put across the Sith winning without Nihilus and Sion, now we don't even get their best ship.

I think this is my leaving point.

Then Traya loses any space battle, the Ravager would be the SSD of this situation, without it even the Interdictor warship wouldn't be a good enough match to face off numerous Hammerheads.

 

That disqualification basically loses her the most important scenario of the war, her fleets being able to face off against other similar size fleets in guerilla attacks, personally I don't see it as fair at all, it was already hard enough to put across the Sith winning without Nihilus and Sion, now we don't even get their best ship.

 

I think this is my leaving point.

I kid I kid..

 

I kid I kid..

It is simply an unbalanced battle, an entirely unbalanced battle, now it just got even more unbalanced to the point of not bothering, Revan's forces now dominate any space engagements, practically handing him the war.

IMPORTANT ANNOUNCEMENT: THE RAVAGER IS OFFICIALLY EXCLUDED FROM THIS BATTLE

 

Reason: No Nihilus, no Ravager - it's a ghost ship and would fall apart with out him. Traya having the Ravager would be an unfair representation of her power base, as she has no power to keep the Ravager intact. By resurrecting the Ravager the ship became part of Nihilus's power base exclusively, as technically it is an extension of his abilities.

 

That is all.

Well that's no good. The Ravager was the only ship keeping Traya in the space game. Without it, she can only maintain guerilla attacks for so long. Now Traya has to adapt to the situation, this means more assassins and deception.

It is possible, but you may have just handed Revan the victory on this one.

Then Traya loses any space battle, the Ravager would be the SSD of this situation, without it even the Interdictor warship wouldn't be a good enough match to face off numerous Hammerheads.

 

That disqualification basically loses her the most important scenario of the war, her fleets being able to face off against other similar size fleets in guerilla attacks, personally I don't see it as fair at all, it was already hard enough to put across the Sith winning without Nihilus and Sion, now we don't even get their best ship.

 

I think this is my leaving point.

You see, with or without the Ravager, Revan wins in legit battle. This is due to three things:

1. He's got more ships the Traya

2. He's a significantly better commander when it comes to legit battles.

3. In a long war, the Republic is gonna be able to produce a LOT more ships then Traya's empire. This furthers reason 1.

It is simply an unbalanced battle, an entirely unbalanced battle, now it just got even more unbalanced to the point of not bothering, Revan's forces now dominate any space engagements, practically handing him the war.

Yup. That's what I've been saying all along.

Yup. That's what I've been saying all along.

I don't think you get it, the Ravager's armada could go all over the place and wreck Revan's fleet piece by piece, add that to the assassins taking over ships here there and everywhere, Revan's fleet dwindles.

Oh and Revan doesn't get reinforcements, that's against the Kaggath, what he currently has is all he is getting, which is his fleet, he is not getting outside aid.

Traya can simply make things worse and worse for Revan who has to single-handedly control a third of the Republic fleet all at once.

You got it yet? that is how the Triumvirate could win the space battles.

But when you get rid of the Ravager, you have taken away the mainstay for the Sith and now only Interdictors are left.

Yup. That's what I've been saying all along.

The battle is completely unbalanced now. The loss of Sion and Nihilus cut the Triumvirate's power by roughly 2/3. The loss of the Ravager brings it down to about 1/8. It was the SSD of its time. Without it, Traya's forces lose badly.

The assassins can still do something, but the Triumvirate has lost its biggest hitters. The loss of Revan's generals only removed 2/3 of the Republic fleet. He still had more forces than the Triumvirate. The Ravager would have made up for that easy. Without the Ravager, Traya loses.

(and don't read what aurbere say... no matter who are against Revan... Revan would loose always... Revan vs Wampa? " Aurbere: Wampa because I hate Revan and because how there you think otherwise?!"

It's like people's forum lives are to hate on me.

How amusing.

I don't think you get it, the Ravager's armada could go all over the place and wreck Revan's fleet piece by piece, add that to the assassins taking over ships here there and everywhere, Revan's fleet dwindles.

 

Oh and Revan doesn't get reinforcements, that's against the Kaggath, what he currently has is all he is getting, which is his fleet, he is not getting outside aid.

 

Traya can simply make things worse and worse for Revan who has to single-handedly control a third of the Republic fleet all at once.

 

You got it yet? that is how the Triumvirate could win the space battles.

 

But when you get rid of the Ravager, you have taken away the mainstay for the Sith and now only Interdictors are left.

I completely disagree with you on the space battle.. but whatever. I've made my argument.

Does he not get the Republic? I think Beni needs to clear this up. Regardless, Revan wins (imo). It's just a matter of how he wins.

It's like people's forum lives are to hate on me.

 

How amusing.

It does seem like you have your own hater group now. Sorry. This is partly my fault.

Don't forget, the space struggle is only a portion of this war. Traya could still win. I don't doubt that she could maneuver Revan into a position where she'd have the upper hand.

Of course, I fully expect Revan to do the same, and with better space forces, he has it much easier.

So yeah. Just because Traya doesn't have the Ravager, doesn't mean she won't win.

EDIT:

Just think about how much coordination it takes for two sides to bring their forces to bear against each other in an all-out battle. Both sides have to believe that they have a chance of winning, or that they have absolutely no hope and might as well go down fighting.

Traya is fully capable of tricking Revan into thinking that he is about to win, then, once he's committed his forces, outmaneuver him and destroy him.

Don't forget, the space struggle is only a portion of this war. Traya could still win. I don't doubt that she could maneuver Revan into a position where she'd have the upper hand.

 

Of course, I fully expect Revan to do the same, and with better space forces, he has it much easier.

 

So yeah. Just because Traya doesn't have the Ravager, doesn't mean she won't win.

I agree. It's not like she doesn't have a chance without the Ravager.

It does seem like you have your own hater group now. Sorry. This is partly my fault.

Doesn't matter. I find it amusing that people constantly call me out in these topics. Hilarious really.

As to the Kaggath. Without the Ravager, Revan wins. The Ravager was the SSD of its time and could easily take on several Republic ships on its own. It pretty much evened out the space battle. Without it, Traya has nothing to really hurt Revan in space. The assassins can only do so much.

Doesn't matter. I find it amusing that people constantly call me out in these topics. Hilarious really.

 

As to the Kaggath. Without the Ravager, Revan wins. The Ravager was the SSD of its time and could easily take on several Republic ships on its own. It pretty much evened out the space battle. Without it, Traya has nothing to really hurt Revan in space. The assassins can only do so much.

I guess you sumed it up there.

I stand by my decision on the Ravager. One ship, unless it is the Executor of the Ascendant Spear, does not win a war. Maybe a battle or two, but the Ravager cannot be in all places at once. If you hold the opinion that the Ravager determines the outcome of this battle, then not only should it not exist in the first place, but then you clearly underestimate and unappreciate Traya's abilities (may I stress the ability to hold half dead ships together is not one of them) and should have been supporting Revan from the word go.

(Yes I am frowning on you for abandoning Traya because she hasn't got her ghosty ship anymore)

EDIT: More frowning :(

I think what people are also forgetting is how this fight will play out. Or at least this is how I see it: Traya will initiate the conflict by dispatching small fleets to attack Revan's outer rim defenses. They will be deliberately disadvantaged as all Traya wants to do is infiltrate Revan's forces with his notice. Once these intial battle subside, resulting in a supposed Revan victory (much like in the Mandalorian Wars) Traya will renew her attacks again, in the exact same fashion - accept this time she will have countless assassins in every other Republic vessel. With a word she can have them slaughter the crew and render the ship useless. But thats not all, destroying the vessels would be pointless, she would take command of them and turn them against Revan. In this way a series of strikes would not only take Revan's jedi (which would be converted at Malachor) but his fleet as well. Revan's forces would be turned against him.

Of course Revan still has the upperhand, but like all guerilla warfare, he would not be able to fight back. The fleets would dissapear as quickly as they materialized, back into the outer rim - taking Revan's forces with him. Each time they returned they would be stronger than before, until them outnumber Revan's forces completely.

But I've realised this is all secondary, like in a game of dejarik, these ships are pawns. The ultimate conflict (and here I disagree with Rayla that space combat is the most important) will - and I stress this because I am 100% - occur on Malachor V. What are the chances Traya will leave Malachor and command the fleet herself? With no military experience? Zilch, nada, none. She will remain and Malachor, goading Revan into a direct confrontation. So whether Traya wins or loses the space battle is almost irrelevant. Whether Revan has a massive fleet or not does not matter, for the gravity and debris surrounding Malachor will force him to confront Traya directly.

So I'd like to refocus the debate, seeing as we've reached a stalemate on the space front:

Revan vs Traya & Malachor V

Let the Kaggath begin again!

I stand by my decision on the Ravager. One ship, unless it is the Executor of the Ascendant Spear, does not win a war. Maybe a battle or two, but the Ravager cannot be in all places at once. If you hold the opinion that the Ravager determines the outcome of this battle, then not only should it not exist in the first place, but then you clearly underestimate and unappreciate Traya's abilities (may I stress the ability to hold half dead ships together is not one of them) and should have been supporting Revan from the word go.

 

(Yes I am frowning on you for abandoning Traya because she hasn't got her ghosty ship anymore)

 

EDIT: More frowning :(

 

I think what people are also forgetting is how this fight will play out. Or at least this is how I see it: Traya will initiate the conflict by dispatching small fleets to attack Revan's outer rim defenses. They will be deliberately disadvantaged as all Traya wants to do is infiltrate Revan's forces with his notice. Once these intial battle subside, resulting in a supposed Revan victory (much like in the Mandalorian Wars) Traya will renew her attacks again, in the exact same fashion - accept this time she will have countless assassins in every other Republic vessel. With a word she can have them slaughter the crew and render the ship useless. But thats not all, destroying the vessels would be pointless, she would take command of them and turn them against Revan. In this way a series of strikes would not only take Revan's jedi (which would be converted at Malachor) but his fleet as well. Revan's forces would be turned against him.

 

Of course Revan still has the upperhand, but like all guerilla warfare, he would not be able to fight back. The fleets would dissapear as quickly as they materialized, back into the outer rim - taking Revan's forces with him. Each time they returned they would be stronger than before, until them outnumber Revan's forces completely.

 

But I've realised this is all secondary, like in a game of dejarik, these ships are pawns. The ultimate conflict (and here I disagree with Rayla that space combat is the most important) will - and I stress this because I am 100% - occur on Malachor V. What are the chances Traya will leave Malachor and command the fleet herself? With no military experience? Zilch, nada, none. She will remain and Malachor, goading Revan into a direct confrontation. So whether Traya wins or loses the space battle is almost irrelevant. Whether Revan has a massive fleet or not does not matter, for the gravity and debris surrounding Malachor will force him to confront Traya directly.

 

So I'd like to refocus the debate, seeing as we've reached a stalemate on the space front:

 

Revan vs Traya & Malachor V

 

Let the Kaggath begin again!

Well if your scenario pans out, which is incredibly likely, Traya destroys Revan on Malachor. Just like she did Sion, she would break Revan and make him her pawn if she saw fit. If turning Revan is not apart of the plan, she uses Sever Force and Force Drain. A direct confrontation with Traya at the Heart of Malachor V is suicide. But Revan has to confront her there. She won't leave Malachor. Revan loses on Malachor.

Well if your scenario pans out, which is incredibly likely, Traya destroys Revan on Malachor. Just like she did Sion, she would break Revan and make him her pawn if she saw fit. If turning Revan is not apart of the plan, she uses Sever Force and Force Drain. A direct confrontation with Traya at the Heart of Malachor V is suicide. But Revan has to confront her there. She won't leave Malachor. Revan loses on Malachor.

My point exactly. Traya's manipulative old scow tactics triumph once again.

My point exactly. Traya's manipulative old scow tactics triumph once again.

That's exactly how she would win this Kaggath. Even though the Ravager was a major part of the fleet, if she could infiltrate Revan's fleet, she would win. At this point, she can turn officers against Revan, kill Jedi and soldiers, and take over entire ships. Revan is forced to fight Traya in order to win. And victory for Revan in such an engagement is impossible.

I stand by my decision on the Ravager. One ship, unless it is the Executor of the Ascendant Spear, does not win a war. Maybe a battle or two, but the Ravager cannot be in all places at once. If you hold the opinion that the Ravager determines the outcome of this battle, then not only should it not exist in the first place, but then you clearly underestimate and unappreciate Traya's abilities (may I stress the ability to hold half dead ships together is not one of them) and should have been supporting Revan from the word go.

 

(Yes I am frowning on you for abandoning Traya because she hasn't got her ghosty ship anymore)

 

EDIT: More frowning :(

 

I think what people are also forgetting is how this fight will play out. Or at least this is how I see it: Traya will initiate the conflict by dispatching small fleets to attack Revan's outer rim defenses. They will be deliberately disadvantaged as all Traya wants to do is infiltrate Revan's forces with his notice. Once these intial battle subside, resulting in a supposed Revan victory (much like in the Mandalorian Wars) Traya will renew her attacks again, in the exact same fashion - accept this time she will have countless assassins in every other Republic vessel. With a word she can have them slaughter the crew and render the ship useless. But thats not all, destroying the vessels would be pointless, she would take command of them and turn them against Revan. In this way a series of strikes would not only take Revan's jedi (which would be converted at Malachor) but his fleet as well. Revan's forces would be turned against him.

 

Of course Revan still has the upperhand, but like all guerilla warfare, he would not be able to fight back. The fleets would dissapear as quickly as they materialized, back into the outer rim - taking Revan's forces with him. Each time they returned they would be stronger than before, until them outnumber Revan's forces completely.

 

But I've realised this is all secondary, like in a game of dejarik, these ships are pawns. The ultimate conflict (and here I disagree with Rayla that space combat is the most important) will - and I stress this because I am 100% - occur on Malachor V. What are the chances Traya will leave Malachor and command the fleet herself? With no military experience? Zilch, nada, none. She will remain and Malachor, goading Revan into a direct confrontation. So whether Traya wins or loses the space battle is almost irrelevant. Whether Revan has a massive fleet or not does not matter, for the gravity and debris surrounding Malachor will force him to confront Traya directly.

 

So I'd like to refocus the debate, seeing as we've reached a stalemate on the space front:

 

Revan vs Traya & Malachor V

 

Let the Kaggath begin again!

If you weren't the guy in charge here... if only.... oh whatever.

Let's address this plan you speak of.

First off, there's no way Traya can get enough assassins on "every Republic ship."

Secondly, Revan is more then capable of countering such warfare. Proof? He invented these assassins. The guys knows about this sort of stuff. So these assassins won't be as effective as you implied in this post (imo).

Revan winning space really is a big deal. I will now give a scenario of my own:

After a long time of fighting, (with Traya at Malachor this whole time) Traya's fleet has been significantly damaged. They pull back to Malachor for the most part. This game just got a lot simpler. Revan then makes a blockade around Malachor (mind you he won't get too close to the planet). Sure Traya and her Sith can stay alive through the force, but the soldiers that are commanding the ships are gonna start starving. While this happens, Revan will chip away at the fleet. Now Traya's fleet is hardly anything. Granted; during this time her assassins are able to inflict a bit of damage on Revan's men, but not enough to counter-act Traya's casultie numbers. Now Revan has Malachor surrounded (from a distance 'cause he doesn't want to get too close). If he can't bomb the planet (which he could easily sacrifice a few ships to do so), then he sends EVERYBODY into Malachor. Revan's casulties would be high here, but they'd have success in killing what remained of Traya's Sith. In this particular battle here assassins won't accomplish much. At this point, Traya is the only one left, and Revan (along with a bunch of his Jedi) take on Traya and kill her. The end.

This (to me) seems like the most likely thing to happen.

Do we assume that each party knows that this is a Kaggath, and therefore knows what the other party's main goal (the destruction of the other) is?

If so, Revan is unlikely to waste time defending Republic worlds from Traya's assaults. He would take the fight to her.

(A quick question: how quickly does M5's influence corrupt? Minutes, hours, days, weeks... ?)

Some seem to be under the impression that Revan and his Jedi would immediately fall under the sway of the dark side if they ventured to M5, and then defect to Traya's side. It is my opinion that the second part of that statement, at the least, is wrong. I believe that, even if they fell to the dark side, Revan's Jedi would still be loyal to him -- at the least, they'd see the power in him and stick with him in the hope of gaining that kind of power for themselves. And I doubt that Revan would shy away from drawing upon the dark side to kill Traya, if he felt he had to do so. Remember, Revan was fairly arrogant at this point in time, and he had just fought a war in which he sacrificed numerous worlds in order to strike against the Mandos.

Thus, Revan would not necessarily be alone when he fought Traya at the Core. I'm not really sure who would win, but it wou;dn't necessarily be "Lightside Revan" against "Traya empowered by the darkside nexus of M5."

These assassins just aren't gonna be as affective on Revan as y'all think. Do I need to explain why again?

Please do. You are under the impression that Revan knew how to make these assassins the whole time, when really he gained the knowledge from Malachor. This is the Revan that fought in the Mandalorian Wars. He has no knowledge of these assassins or how to recreate it.

Do we assume that each party knows that this is a Kaggath, and therefore knows what the other party's main goal (the destruction of the other) is?

 

If so, Revan is unlikely to waste time defending Republic worlds from Traya's assaults. He would take the fight to her.

 

(A quick question: how quickly does M5's influence corrupt? Minutes, hours, days, weeks... ?)

 

Some seem to be under the impression that Revan and his Jedi would immediately fall under the sway of the dark side if they ventured to M5, and then defect to Traya's side. It is my opinion that the second part of that statement, at the least, is wrong. I believe that, even if they fell to the dark side, Revan's Jedi would still be loyal to him -- at the least, they'd see the power in him and stick with him in the hope of gaining that kind of power for themselves. And I doubt that Revan would shy away from drawing upon the dark side to kill Traya, if he felt he had to do so. Remember, Revan was fairly arrogant at this point in time, and he had just fought a war in which he sacrificed numerous worlds in order to strike against the Mandos.

 

Thus, Revan would not necessarily be alone when he fought Traya at the Core. I'm not really sure who would win, but it wou;dn't necessarily be "Lightside Revan" against "Traya empowered by the darkside nexus of M5."

You're right.

HOWEVER: This would have been Revan near the beginning of the Mando War. So he wouldn't have been AS arrogant.