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Force Wave/Overload Change in 1.4 - An appeal to reconsider


leto_cleon

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I was a bit leery of this change at first, but now I'm not too worried about it. Sure, it'll take a bit to get used to the cone aoe, but once you do you'll be able to work wonders.

 

2 big pluses:

1) The ability is instant, which will help alot on the latency front. Also, no more hitting overload when another character hits their instant knockback, getting knocked back and uselessly slamming the ground at your new location.

 

2) The increase in range to 15m is downright juicy. Yes, the current form of overload is a nice "oh crap" button, but the new form sounds like it'll be a much more effective kiting tool. If I understand it correctly, you'll be able to knock people back the same distance when they're still fairly far away from you. Add in the potential root from electric bindings and quicker access to force speed (especially if you can still talent it) and you're gonna be able to keep people from getting too close to you.

 

edit: while these changes certainly help healer/lightning spec more (hooray for me and my healing/lit. hybrid!), I don't think they're going to hurt madness as much as people think. A longer range knockback + creeping terror should be a potent combo, and the benefits of gaining a free, instant heal and more force speeding should not be ignored. As far as the shorter range on electrocute goes, sure, I'll miss it. However, I don't think it's a class-breaking change by any means. Most of my kiting comes from my slow, knockback+aoe, and sprint. I find that the stun is usually better saved for stalling while your teammate caps or trapping a ball carrier in a hazard, though it's certainly helpful when the poop hits the fan. Used at the right time, those 4 seconds will be useful at any distance, especially with more force sprinting to be had.

Edited by Sock_Bramson
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edit--- I think I am just disappointed they didnt do anything to actually effect full lightning sorc spec. I always felt the top skill was pointless with a long cast time. Just disappointing so I am jaded in this discussion. Edited by Kegparty
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Actually, keg, these changes could potentially make lightning viable for once. You'll get(possibly, depending on what they do with the talent trees) force speed every 10 seconds, interrupt immunity, a 3 second aoe hard stun, a longer range knockback, and a free, instant heal. Used correctly, these changes might just allow you to shock the hell out of people. From what I've heard, lightning dps in pve is in a good place at the moment; the main issue in pvp has been lack of mobility, i.e. you can't survive long enough to dish out any damage. Quickly re positioning every 10 seconds alone might just fix things, but we'll have to see.

 

Also, I've heard some interesting theories on how to optimize your stats as a lit. sorc. I don't really know all the specifics, but you may be able to get more damage by sacrificing crit for power. (since TB is an insta-crit if you have affliction up) Like I said, we're just gonna have to wait and see how all of this shakes out.

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Obviously people have not realized that Bioware has no idea about PvP balance. We are better off speccing our Sorcs/Sages to heals, making them our alts, and rolling PT/Mara/Sniper.

 

The main complaint in the Class Feedback was survivability, but they nerf our Overload/Wave. If you can't accept the fact that Bioware hasn't a clue about this AC, then good luck to you. I will be rerolling PT and shelving my Sorc as an alt/daily cred toon until Patch 1.7 when they finally realize that this class needs more attention.

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Somebody else already re-posted my feedback from another thread here (thanks for that) but I want to re-iterate my feedback on the changes to Overload:

 

The proposed change will increase the utility of Overload as an offensive tool because of the instant cast time and the longer knockback distance but it will decrease it as a defensive tool because so often Overload is used to knock back to the rear and side. While ostensibly one could turn to aim the cone, in practice this means turning toward your opponent when you are trying to create separation and because of lag that occurs when rapidly changing facing. I don't think this basic point -- that offensive utility will go up but defensive utility will go down -- is up for much debate among those who play the class as their main.

 

I've never heard "sorcs always get away" as a complaint on these forums. If any thing, the complaint is that sorcs lack survivability. So I am not sure why the defensive utility of one of abilities is being reduced. Electrocute also lost some of its defensive utility because you can't use it to anticipate the leap; now you have to wait to get jumped and use it in almost melee range ... and some classes have CC immunity after leaps so that's a further diminished of defensive utility.

 

Incidentally, while sorcs trying to survive may not be able to use Overload as a dependable defensive ability any more, I don't think this will lead to less knockbacks and roots. On the contrary, once Sorcs get used to using this offensively, it's increased KB range and instant cast will actually mean more knockbacks/roots in an offensive contexts. Right now, Overload has such a limited range that you can drop it and miss lots of people. As modified, it will have a bigger impact on clustered foes... and no less of a root if talented.

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If you can get used to jump turning, I think Overload can still be very effective defensively. You can't jump turn with it now because the delay would cause you to travel in the air in the opposite direction. As an instant ability, though, it won't have this problem. If you don't like jump turning (even though it's a useful skill for other situations), you can always try to fake them out: act like you're running around a pillar, about face, run past, and turn around and blast them as they take the extra second to react.

 

As far as offensive/defensive uses go, it may prove to be a better defense precisely because you can use it more proactively. Plus, you can also use it more offensively to boot.

 

Really, the sorc changes have only 2 nerf-ish aspects: 1) cone KB, 2) shorter range stun. I've already said I don't think 2) is gonna be as bad as people think with all the positive changes, and the downside of 1) is offset by the increased range on Overload. Meanwhile, the buffs we are getting are gonna be pretty damn awesome. Speaking from my post-1.2 respecing experience alone, having force speed every 20 seconds by itself is downright Om Nom.

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Probably the biggest prob imo (playing mostly melee classes right now) is with lag and without collision detection in the game then I will find it pretty easy to dodge the sorcs knockback by doing ahole cheap things (running through them). I think running through a player is wrong, however to be competitive I do it anyway lol. They should keep their knockback. Maybe just increase the cd or something. Since they are getting a quicker sprint then increasing the cd of knockback would make the most sense.

 

Also buff st burst on the lightning spec so I can not be extremely bored and play my sorc again. I just get bored playing easymode instant ranged classes. The skill (when pugging) of a ranged class is mostly positioning. With instants this isn't really that big of a deal. Some skill is also found in targeting and timing big hit abilities but with an instant dot class this isn't needed either. BUFF LIGHTNING.

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If you can get used to jump turning, I think Overload can still be very effective defensively. You can't jump turn with it now because the delay would cause you to travel in the air in the opposite direction. As an instant ability, though, it won't have this problem. If you don't like jump turning (even though it's a useful skill for other situations), you can always try to fake them out: act like you're running around a pillar, about face, run past, and turn around and blast them as they take the extra second to react.

 

There is no jump turning in this game. You change direction when you turn around in mid air. Try it. It's one thing to turn around just to target an effect that auto-hits but requires forward-facing. That can be tricky. But turning around to target an aimed effect is another matter. In practice you're going to want to use force speed to setup the KB... but then you're not using FS to run away...

 

More importantly, lag does not permit a lot of precision in these scenarios. I lag out when I am looking back to the ball carrier and turn around to run up ahead. I wind up facing some unexpected direction. A lot of people report this.

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We get massive buffs to survivability and a tiny weeny nerf, quote as many QQ'ers as u want, that won't make u right. The knockback will be instant, so the old 0.5 activation time (that pissed me off so much) will be used to turn around and face ur ennemies instead.
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If you're taking a DPS sorceror into a pile to facetank enemies from all directions, you have no business telling anyone anything about skill with the class.

 

Honestly...if turning to knockback an opponent with an instant 120 degree 15m cone is too difficult for a player, I just don't know what to say.

 

This post reads like you have a jugg, not a sorceror, and are imagining what sorcerors do and do not use overload for based on how you use force push.

 

Nah. I have a Shadow. He gets mobbed, surrounded, prison-s*xed all the time. Then I just hit ezmode Force Wave and scatter everything on my screen like bowling pins. It's cathartic, especially when I do it while drooling.

 

 

I was a bit leery of this change at first, but now I'm not too worried about it. Sure, it'll take a bit to get used to the cone aoe, but once you do you'll be able to work wonders.

 

Pretty much. Skilled players that know how to adapt will embrace the Cone and do amazing things with it.

 

 

Obviously people have not realized that Bioware has no idea about PvP balance. We are better off speccing our Sorcs/Sages to heals, making them our alts, and rolling PT/Mara/Sniper.

 

Ya, you're right. They should hire a closet gaming genius like yourself to balance the game's PvP. You can apply online, I heard BW is hiring.

 

 

More importantly, lag does not permit a lot of precision in these scenarios.

 

What is this lag you keep speaking of? Sure I see it very rarely (say maybe once a week) in a Huttball match, but lag in this game has never been a constant problem for me and my connection runs at 60ms or so. The extent to which you complain about it tells me that you need to check your connection or your comp. You also may want to check your system and what is running in the background while you're playing the game.

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What is this lag you keep speaking of? Sure I see it very rarely (say maybe once a week) in a Huttball match, but lag in this game has never been a constant problem for me and my connection runs at 60ms or so. The extent to which you complain about it tells me that you need to check your connection or your comp. You also may want to check your system and what is running in the background while you're playing the game.

 

I have a decent system (recommended video settings are all high) and a fast internet connection 20Mbps or higher. I have lag spikes that occur when chasing direction -- for example, when I turn around to face the ball carrier and then whip back around to run ahead in Huttball. I wind up facing a random direction sometimes and not every time. Others have reported the same thing. If it doesn't happen to you, then don't worry about it. But that doesn't mean that it doesn't happen to others.

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Honestly...if turning to knockback an opponent with an instant 120 degree 15m cone is too difficult for a player, I just don't know what to say.

 

Nah. I have a Shadow. He gets mobbed, surrounded, prison-s*xed all the time. Then I just hit ezmode Force Wave and scatter everything on my screen like bowling pins. It's cathartic, especially when I do it while drooling.

 

Pretty much. Skilled players that know how to adapt will embrace the Cone and do amazing things with it.

 

Ya, you're right. They should hire a closet gaming genius like yourself to balance the game's PvP. You can apply online, I heard BW is hiring.

 

Unsurprisingly, a Shadow fails to understand why a shared skill is so important for their alternate AC. who'd have thought? I'm sure that for you, Force Wave is just icing on the cake in your loadout. I mean, between instant, cost free taunts that you can fire off the GCD. a couple of nice defensive cooldowns, the same force speed that we get...

 

And the whole "Skilled players will adapt" is possible the biggest ./facepalm retort I've seen in this thread so far. Yes, you are correct that good players will learn to adapt. However, just because a player can adapt to a worse set of circumstances, it doesn't mean that increasing the skill requirements of an already high-skill-level class is a sensible thing to do.

 

Why the hell should sages/sorcerers have to put in so much effort for so little reward compared to specs like the Pyro Powertech? Measuring a class based purely on it's approximate output is completely idiotic if it doesn't take into account the usefulness of the output (Burst vs AoE), and more than anything else, the ease with which such output is achieved.

 

And while it's not directed at you, the whole notion that Force Wave is going to become like an AoE Force push is severely exaggerating it's effectiveness. While the range at which it can take effect may be going up to 15m, the summary doesn't mention anywhere that the KB distance is actually going to increase. If it stays as it, it's still going to require a group of people to be standing stupidly close to an edge to push them all off.

 

At that point I'd much rather have kept my Force Wave as a 360 AoE and intelligently used Force speed to get it where it needed to be quickly.

Edited by Tyrias
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Enter the forum trolls. :sigh: Get a life already seriously

 

The change to Force Wave affects Shadows as well and Force Speed reserved for a force cloak escape. Without force speed, a Shadow is just opening himself to a placed AoE to break him out of stealth.

 

And it really isn't about aiming. A 120 degree knockback cone is so easily countered.

 

Stop crying. Ops have had the same "vulnerability" all the while, for a "will placed AoE to know them out of stealth".

 

Such babies....

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A player's class gets 3 buffs and 1 nerf...

 

 

Complains about nerf.

 

a 'moderate heal' a 20 sec cd on force speed and immunity while force speeding which you need to go half up the healing tree to get really isn't a buff taking away something that is vital to survive and giving something mediocre at best leans more towards bad for the dps class than good, sure the heal is okay i suppose, cd reduction is great for heals and bal, and no root is okay for heals, but the fact our only defensive ability to get melee off us just got nerfed to the ground and the fact our stun range just got nerfed to the ground.

 

so thats 2 nerfs, 1 moderately okay oh **** heal and 1 'okay?' cd recuc to the squishiest char ingame...

and everyone else kb are the same? wut?

Edited by --ll--
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Honestly...if turning to knockback an opponent with an instant 120 degree 15m cone is too difficult for a player, I just don't know what to say.

 

Scenario: toon facing North. Marauder leaps from South. When this change goes live, I want to see a warzone video (not a duel) in which you can reliably spin 180`, activate the ability before the leap animation ends, spin 90` and strafe in the opposite direction you have just knocked him. Minus the first spin, this is what sorcerors do to counter leaps: activate overload during the leap animation, turn 90` from the direction the target came from while rooted, then cast shocks/deathfields/etc. while strafing in the opposite direction the enemy was knocked back.

 

Considering you, by your own admission, struggle with something as simple as recognizing that someone's CC'ed and not to aoe them, I'm going to go out on the long, sturdy limb that says you can't execute this manoeuvre at all, let alone reliably.

 

 

Nah. I have a Shadow. He gets mobbed, surrounded, prison-s*xed all the time. Then I just hit ezmode Force Wave and scatter everything on my screen like bowling pins. It's cathartic, especially when I do it while drooling.

 

So you don't understand the problem with overload being changed because you don't understand how to use it in the first place. I have a Carnage Marauder and a Pyro. I don't understand what would possess anyone to brag about this mindbogglingly ineffective tactic. The Carnage marauder can land his hardest-hitter from there (then root you, if he chooses) and the Pyro is knocked back to...the exact ideal range for the class. And you break CCs, as you've already mentioned. At least if you were a hybrid sorc, this would root your attackers. On an assassin, you accomplish absolutely nothing.

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http://www.swtor.com/community/showpost.php?p=5121133&postcount=32 http://www.swtor.com/community/showpost.php?p=5121739&postcount=55

A player's class gets 3 buffs and 1 nerf... Complains about nerf.

Both Shadows and Sages have Force Wave, a change to it affects both classes so this is too broad a brush stroke. Sage buffs do not apply to Shadows.

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showpost.php?p=5121326&postcount=39

yes because you should not die if 3 people are on you :/

No I didn't say that. The current 360 degree force wave is how you get all of them off you and continue supporting your team. A 120 degree cone can miss all of them due to lag spikes.

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showpost.php?p=5121354&postcount=40

Most of the good coordinated PvP teams that I see are full of this class cross-healing each other and chain spamming Force Wave while they hold down nodes and being nearly invincible.

Yes that's one of the functions of Force Wave, but it is also used to get melee DPS off you. Consulars have light armour, so between the other medium armour and heavy armour classes, it usually make more sense to focus down the one with light armour first.

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showpost.php?p=5121554&postcount=45

It won't be to hard to sidestep, turn camera, knock back, turn camera and run. Or for gods sake BACKPEDAL 2 steps, KB, turn and run. Better yet, if you have a teammate they can come in, knock them all off you.

Smart melee DPS already come from the side or the back and will already root you in place. Needing to rely on another team mate for a knockback is a huge crutch when attempting to zerg a node.

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showpost.php?p=5121700&postcount=54

15m is pretty far reaching knockback. Throw a whole team off the huttball ledges from the other side of a fire pit.

Hmm... but when you can only do a front conal knockback, enemies aren't really being delayed, they're just being plopped to a better position.

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showpost.php?p=5121756&postcount=58 and http://www.swtor.com/community/showpost.php?p=5122235&postcount=77

BioWare changes Force wave/overload which will buff "skilled" players and nerf keyboard mashers.

 

This. I honestly don't understand all the QQ about this change. The skill has been made more precise and the player will now have more control over the skill.

Actually the change makes it easier for keyboard mashers to go against Consulars. Its a reduction in the skill required to go against Consulars. Currently, it for example is best to leap to a Consular right after Force Wave is activated. With only a frontal cone to worry about, there's no real need to watch for if it actually is on CD or not.

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showpost.php?p=5122332&postcount=84

Since when is turning and having to face your opponent a hard thing to do? .... Using it in a group of peeps knocks back the wrong player(s) all the time, breaks CC all the time, unnecessarily contributes to opponent resolve all the time.

Umm... when you are stun locked by an operative facing your opponent is not an option. And on the second point, they way Force Wave currently is, the way to use it is to be sure that you want to kb all that are in the radius before you actually hit it. Its not a blind spam button.

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showpost.php?p=5122435&postcount=86

Secondly, I don't think this is as crippling as people are making it out to be. Unless you keyboard turn. Then its utterly crippling.

There's now a 240 degree cone behind that's now complete exposed for melee classes to hit. The 360 degree ability lets you push off those that are stun locking you from behind, the 120 frontal cone does not. Be it mouse or keyboard turning, the operative (for example) doing the stun lock are a 2/3 of you to play with to avoid the front cone.

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showpost.php?p=5123398&postcount=112

What is this lag you keep speaking of? Sure I see it very rarely (say maybe once a week) in a Huttball match, but lag in this game has never been a constant problem for me and my connection runs at 60ms or so.

There are lag spike even in off hours when the sever loads are light or standard. I've seen it typed into ops chat and if I'm with guildies its a collective "ooo lag spike". So its not exclusively a client side issue.

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showpost.php?p=5124139&postcount=115

Stop crying. Ops have had the same "vulnerability" all the while, for a "will placed AoE to know them out of stealth".

Its feedback silly. Last I checked, its encouraged. An Agent/Smuggler - Inquisitor/Consular comparison first really needs to start with the fact that the former has medium armour and the latter has light armour. Certain things are already balanced around that. Force Wave as a prelude to using force cloak etc is not the only use.

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Overload and Force Wave, for example, now reach 15 meters in front of you. This is almost twice the previous range. The extra reach is quite a bit of fun and quite useful all around. ... From our internal playtesting and feedback, we're confident that the new experience is more fun. Ultimately, we want you guys to be able to tell us what is and isn't fun, so we're looking forward to players actually testing these changes in-game on the PTS and giving us good, constructive feedback that is based on playing with the changes.

 

If this time round there's an easier way to copy my WH Shadow over test it out I am more than willing to do so. Preliminarily though, it is no fun at all with a naked 240 degree cone that is exposed to melee attacks from the rear when stunlocked.

 

A frontal cone knockback is also more of a Force Push (similar to the cut scene with Darth Malgues in The False Emperor flashpoint). In terms of lore, Force Wave/Force Repulse is a 360 degree ability. Surely the Consular is much more versed in the ways of the force than a Knight to generate a 360 degree wave rather a only slightly more improved 120 degree push.

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Scenario: toon facing North. Marauder leaps from South. When this change goes live, I want to see a warzone video (not a duel) in which you can reliably spin 180`, activate the ability before the leap animation ends

 

360° or 120° knockback, nobody can push back a leaper before the end of animation when it's from behind you because the leaper will start leaping when he is out of sight (not on screen) because most of the time when you fight your "camera" is directed in front of you.

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.

You always have a lot to say for someone who isnt playing the class. I'm almost getting the impression that you think that shadows and sages are the same thing, on behalf of both being consulars. Is this where you tell me that you actually have one and just forgot to add it to your sig?

Edited by MidichIorian
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360° or 120° knockback, nobody can push back a leaper before the end of animation when it's from behind you because the leaper will start leaping when he is out of sight (not on screen) because most of the time when you fight your "camera" is directed in front of you.

 

Well... I've had a few times when I activate force wave and saw a few Knights/Warriors knockbacked mid flight. For me its been a stroke of luck when that happens. And then there's server lag...

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Don't like leaps? You can now push a leaper from even farther away. If he sneaks up on you, he deserves to get a couple of smacks in. Too lazy to find the quote, but someone was saying that the frontal cone will make it so you'll knock enemies into beneficial locations. (???) Bwuh? What if you, oh, I don't know, aim your knockback and send them exactly where you want them, like off a bridge/behind a pillar/ into fire or acid. And you can do all of this when they are still 15m away, 7 extra meters than we have now. If nobody can see the benefits of 15m + 8m (or 5 or however far it knocks them back), then I don't know what to tell you. I, for one, can't wait to push the crap out of some people. Edited by Sock_Bramson
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Scenario: toon facing North. Marauder leaps from South. When this change goes live, I want to see a warzone video (not a duel) in which you can reliably spin 180`, activate the ability before the leap animation ends, spin 90` and strafe in the opposite direction you have just knocked him. Minus the first spin, this is what sorcerors do to counter leaps: activate overload during the leap animation, turn 90` from the direction the target came from while rooted, then cast shocks/deathfields/etc. while strafing in the opposite direction the enemy was knocked back.

 

If ur facing north, and u get leaped from the south, that means ur busy with something going on north, and you will NOT be activating ur knockback "during" the leap animation. And i'm not even talking about the general cooldown. Your scenario implies that ur doing nothing, facing a random direction and expecting a force jump from ur back. Nice try.

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Does this lag that will stop people pointing in the right direction never mean they miss the split second to start casting an ability to knockback someone they see leaping?

 

Or has it been announced that the new force wave/overload come with its own whole-wz lag to unfailingly cancel out the now-instant cast?

 

I realise of course that lag (and more often, the fact it wasn't instant) never made anyone bounce an enemy into the wrong place (over the scoreline instead of into the pit, for instance) with the current overload/force wave. Ever.

 

Lag argument is bogus.

Edited by Wainamoinen
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