Ran Malestorm for the first time, wiped a few times, but I managed to get through it. Personally discovered that I really liked being a defensive tank

But the healer kept asking for guard....so I put up guard.....is the healer bad? am I doing something wrong w/tanking?

I would use taunt, my interupts, etc to keep mobs away from everyone as best I could.

You're healer was dumb, and making both of your jobs harder.

Since you were not asleep and at least trying to get aggro, you were probably very successful, which means the 5% damage reduction from guard would have done nothing for him because nothing should be hitting him. And the threat reduction would have been better used on a DPS, so you could hold aggro easier and mitigate more damage, thus making the healer's job actually easier.

Still, you did the right thing, because it just isn't worth the drama/argument.

A lot of players (of all roles) don't really understand how threat works in this game, and I can't blame them because the in-game tooltip doesn't exactly make it crystal clear. The guard is almost useless on a healer (speaking of pve only ofc). But if you're not worried about losing aggro to either of the dps players, you can guard the healer by default.

And yes, you're right, it's probably not worth arguing about in the middle of the flashpoint. As a tank, you don't want to get on the bad side of your healer(s).

Now if the healer is drawing aggro, most likely it's because a mob somewhere has been left alone by everyone else. Whose fault it is exactly is debatable, but as a tank, you can't be everywhere (though you should strive to be !), and everyone can make efforts to make your job easier : dps should kill weak adds quickly and engage anyone you can't handle yourself, and a healer under fire should learn to los, stun, and stay close to you rather than running away or being a sitting duck.

You're healer was dumb, and making both of your jobs harder.

who to guard should be decided by the situation...

Currently i'm leveling again as a healer (sorcerer). You will find a lot beginner-tanks that are often focused on the strongest target. DPS are very often going after the tank's target or are looking for the next stronger NPC - obviously they are all beginners...

since i am not a beginner, my equipment fits perfectly to my char and is allways on top level with blue item-modifications and of course two +41 AP crystals. Even as a healer i am getting aggro from mobs that are attacked by dps. Who do you think was attacked by the other mobs that are not tanked or attacked by anyone ?

The last three day i have seen 4 bosses going enrage in low level flashpoints...

i am not complaining about "bad players" - at least the tank and me survived these enrageing bosses... but please don`t tell me (or other players) that it is just a "dumb" healer when he is asking for guard...

who to guard should be decided by the situation...

There are precious few situations in this game where guarding the healer is the right solution for threat-related reasons (TfB comes to mind).

Other than that, the only "situation" that decides giving the healer guard is when they demand it and you don't feel like arguing.

If you, as a healer, are getting attacked, it's because nobody else has attacked that mob. Guarding you doesn't magically make someone else attack the mob -- so guess what: You'll still be at the top of the threat table.

That said, HMFPs can be done without using guard AT ALL. Just by being a good tank and judicious use of taunts, you can keep aggro. So frankly, there's no real harm in guarding the healer, even if all you get is the 5% damage reduction.

But if you think that guarding the healer will solve a threat problem, you're mistaken (with a couple of exceptions in operation fights with very specific mechanics).

If you, as a healer, are getting attacked, it's because nobody else has attacked that mob.

wrong... healing only does not make any mob entering the fight, so someone must have been on top of the aggro list before me... think about it. I am not opening any fight and i am not adding any other mobs by attaking, so i can only get aggro from mobs that have had aggro on another player.

Guarding you doesn't magically make someone else attack the mob

There is no magic in it...

As a healer i am producing aggro on ALL mobs that are involved in a fight. So now explain why guarding the healer will not at least give the healer little more time until these other mobs are starting to attack the healer ?

so guess what: You'll still be at the top of the threat table.

of course... again... explain please why guarding the healer will not extend the time until all these mobs are going after me...

but you are right... it`s not worth to discuss about it...

Interesting tips guys, thanks. I'll make a note of that next time I get Malestorm or another FP like that.

Things got slightly odd...when I noticed the healer stopped using his heals when when got to...Krupp I think his name is? The psycho cyborg guy.....

Dialogue was more or less like this

DPS: *To Healer* Why didn't you use your other healing spells?

I typed out I'm sorry I died, I was the last gal standing

Healer: I have other healing spells?

Me: O_O..... oh dear...

DPS: You're not specced as a healer....

Me: (Oh boy..........)

Surpsingly we all pulled through after some careful planning, but it was....odd for a moment

wrong... healing only does not make any mob entering the fight, so someone must have been on top of the aggro list before me... think about it. I am not opening any fight and i am not adding any other mobs by attaking, so i can only get aggro from mobs that have had aggro on another player.

Wrong, when you enter combat with a group of enemies, any enemies within a certain radius of the ones who are aggro'd all enter combat at the same time.

There is no magic in it...

 

As a healer i am producing aggro on ALL mobs that are involved in a fight. So now explain why guarding the healer will not at least give the healer little more time until these other mobs are starting to attack the healer ?

You are producing a fraction of the threat a DPS or tank produces, such that literally they would have to not attack mobs for you to pull off them, in which case (as has already been explained to you and ignored), guard would not help you anyways.

of course... again... explain please why guarding the healer will not extend the time until all these mobs are going after me...

Its been explained. Combat is initiated, mobs will attack whoever initiated combat but 0 threat is going to those mobs at that time. If nobody attacks them and you cast 1 heal, they will go to you. If nobody continues to attack them, you're tanking them. If a DPS or tank attacks them even ONCE, they will do more threat than several big heals of yours could hope to do, and they will pull off you, even if you don't have a guard.

but you are right... it`s not worth to discuss about it...

Its not because there are stubborn people like you who don't understand the game mechanics, refuse to try to understand them (have you ever actually read a combat log before?), and stubbornly complain with anecdotal evidence (but see this one time this happened so that's the way it works!) until they're blue in the face and you give them their guard.

Oh btw as for your other comment about bosses enraging in a lowbie flashpoint, that doesn't happen. Enrage doesn't become a mechanic until level 50 hard modes.

Now please, learn how to read combat logs and educate yourself on how threat works in this game, and stop cluttering up this forum with even more bad and wrong advice for new players. As for the OP, you did the right thing in giving the guard to the healer if only so he won't complain and ragequit, like the poster I'm replying to probably would.

wrong... healing only does not make any mob entering the fight, so someone must have been on top of the aggro list before me... think about it. I am not opening any fight and i am not adding any other mobs by attaking, so i can only get aggro from mobs that have had aggro on another player.

 

 

 

 

 

There is no magic in it...

 

As a healer i am producing aggro on ALL mobs that are involved in a fight. So now explain why guarding the healer will not at least give the healer little more time until these other mobs are starting to attack the healer ?

 

 

 

of course... again... explain please why guarding the healer will not extend the time until all these mobs are going after me...

 

 

but you are right... it`s not worth to discuss about it...

Just a few points. First, someone else may initiate combat, either by proximity (Body agro) or deliberately (Pulling).

From that point on, any action that adds a new buff to a party member, heals a player that has taken damage (effective healing) or deals damage to a hostile target. Will be considered the top priority for the target. Whether the tank has attacked the mob or not.

Example: You are the healer and have guard. Tank pulls a pack of 5 mobs. 4 mobs are clustered and one weak mob is set apart from the group. You cast force shield on the tank followed by rejuvenate.

During the first few seconds of the pull, all of the mobs including the standalone weak mob have been attacking the tank.

However, none of the dps or the tank have landed any blows on that one weak mob.

The moment you cast your shield on the tank, the weak mob switches to you. The first tick from rejuvenate created additional threat on the threat table of the weak mob. Now, having guard on you means that with your own passive talents, (assuming you are healing spec). The amount of threat you produced was lower than with out guard.

But because no one else has landed a blow on the weak mob, the weak mob will continue to attack you as you are still sole and top threat on the list. Despite all of your threat reduction from talents and guard. You still have 100% of the weak mob's threat.

The solution to this example is quite easy, as I already stated. Healers have passive threat reduction built into their talents. Healing threat is also based on effective healing and can partly be mitigated by using absorb mechanics like force shield.

Either the tank or the dps just has to hit the mob and exceed the small amount of threat you have produced to cause the mob to attack the tank or dps that attacked it.

Put simply, most dps and tanks tunnel vision.

However, none of the dps or the tank have landed any blows on that one weak mob.

I am not talking about only ONE weak mob... i can deal with those "single mobs" on my own...

This discussion does not make sense... you are only talking about "normal" groups where everyone knows what to do.

But you have not only to deal with "normal" situations or groups...

Either the tank or the dps just has to hit the mob and exceed the small amount of threat you have produced to cause the mob to attack the tank or dps that attacked it.

 

 

Put simply, most dps and tanks tunnel vision.

Thank you for explaining how the threat works in this game. I really want everyone to understand how basic it is. Not just healers but many dps/tanks don't understand it.

One very good example is Beast of Vodal Kressh in Athiss FP:

(This is assuming you don't go to cave)

- when adds spawn they will go for healer unless tank/dps doesn't get to them before that

- it only takes one (1) grenade from lowbie 'slinger to pull those off of Healer. And they will stay on that 'slinger like group of rabid dogs if not attacked by anyone else.

I am not talking about only ONE weak mob... i can deal with those "single mobs" on my own...

 

This discussion does not make sense... you are only talking about "normal" groups where everyone knows what to do.

But you have not only to deal with "normal" situations or groups...

yeah but no matter how many mobs there are, guard works the same. they will still attack you if no one else touches them whether you have guard or not.

- it only takes one (1) grenade from lowbie 'slinger to pull those off of Healer. And they will stay on that 'slinger like group of rabid dogs if not attacked by anyone else.

YES... if they are doing this...

if not i have to deal with these mobs on my own. And i had to do exactly this the last two runs i was in there...

As well i had to deal on my own with the mobs that spawn during the next encounter as well...

Don`t tell me that it is good enough just to use a DPSers AE to get rid of them... they didn`t take notice of them.

As well as no DPS takes care about the adds that spawn during the last fight in Hammerstation.

If i was not fast enough to kick the mobs down i had to fight them down myself without any assistance...

And by the way... this boss was one of the four bosses i saw enrageing... consider now that the dps were not wasting damage to the adds that spawned.

There were more situations like this in nearly every FP i joined. That is what i am talking about... not what should be "normal"...

Maybe i was very unlucky when joining those groups...

yeah but no matter how many mobs there are, guard works the same. they will still attack you if no one else touches them whether you have guard or not.

ÄÄhm... there is still the damage-reduction that may help... and when i am the one that takes damage besides the tank i think it`s better to protect me than a dps that takes no damage at all... in case he draws aggro from the tank, the tank may use his taunt...

ÄÄhm... there is still the damage-reduction that may help... and when i am the one that takes damage besides the tank i think it`s better to protect me than a dps that takes no damage at all... in case he draws aggro from the tank, the tank may use his taunt...

If the tank isn't using his taunts (or any other abilities) to get the aggro away from you, why would he do it to get aggro away from the dps? If ou think it's bad to be healing yourself and a tank, try healing yourself and a dps. That's even harder.

If the tank isn't using his taunts (or any other abilities) to get the aggro away from you, why would he do it to get aggro away from the dps? If ou think it's bad to be healing yourself and a tank, try healing yourself and a dps. That's even harder.

ok... you all win...

End of discussion...

ok... you all win...

 

End of discussion...

*le sigh*

This isn't a matter of "winning the argument". There is honestly a lot of misunderstanding and misinformation about HOW HEALING THREAT WORKS. This is simply an attempt to explain it.

1. Take the amount of healing you're doing. Do not count overheals, just effective heals.

2. Reduce by 60% (threat is 50% of heals done, less 10% for threat reduction skill - e.g. Foresight)

3. Divide by the number of mobs present.

Let's say there are 4 mobs present, and you are doing 2000 effective HPS.

2000 - 50% - 10% / 4 = 200 threat per second per mob.

Now, let's say you have guard and get an additional 25% threat reduction. You are now generating only 150 threat per second per mob.

200 tps vs 150 tps is irrelevant. The only way you have aggro is if NOBODY is attacking the mob.

1. GUARDING THE HEALER WILL NOT PREVENT THE HEALER FROM BEING ATTACKED.

2. DPS / TANK PICKING UP THE MOBS IS THE ONLY WAY TO PREVENT THE HEALER FROM BEING ATTACKED.

Now, as I've mentioned earlier in this thread, a good tank can hold aggro WITHOUT guarding ANYONE. Which means that if you really really want the guard for the 5% damage reduction, then fine and whatever. But wanting it for the 25% threat reduction? That's just a fart in a monsoon.

So, since I'm not a bad tank..... I don't guard dps. I don't in fp's, I don't in operations, basically never guard dps.

I guard heals, because the only things I want my healers thinking about is healing and potentially doing damage while waiting for me to give them something to heal.

Also I guard heals because in the very very very unlikely case I lose threat to someone, I want it to be a dps who can pop a defensive and just keep damaging, vs a healer that then focuses on healing themselves instead of me.

Also anything to reduce the squishyness of my healer is ideal because honestly no one gives a **** if a dps dies (not that they ever should because again, I'm not a bad tank, not gonna lose aggro on anything other than a **** ton of trash)

Also healers only generate threat with effective healing, therefore the only time they can potentially pull off of a tank or dps is if there is alot of raid/group wide damage going off and in that case the worst thing that can happen is a healer being targeted.

So again if you don't want really really bad things happening gaurd a healer.

If you are a really really bad tank go for guarding a dps, but honestly that little itty bitty guard isn't gonna help fix your issues.

So, since I'm not a bad tank..... I don't guard dps. I don't in fp's, I don't in operations, basically never guard dps.

 

I guard heals, because the only things I want my healers thinking about is healing and potentially doing damage while waiting for me to give them something to heal.

 

Also I guard heals because in the very very very unlikely case I lose threat to someone, I want it to be a dps who can pop a defensive and just keep damaging, vs a healer that then focuses on healing themselves instead of me.

 

Also anything to reduce the squishyness of my healer is ideal because honestly no one gives a **** if a dps dies (not that they ever should because again, I'm not a bad tank, not gonna lose aggro on anything other than a **** ton of trash)

 

Also healers only generate threat with effective healing, therefore the only time they can potentially pull off of a tank or dps is if there is alot of raid/group wide damage going off and in that case the worst thing that can happen is a healer being targeted.

 

So again if you don't want really really bad things happening gaurd a healer.

If you are a really really bad tank go for guarding a dps, but honestly that little itty bitty guard isn't gonna help fix your issues.

i don't agree with you..healers can pop dcd aswell or their threat drop. healer's gonna never aggro if you are a good tank and with good dps , while dps can aggro even with the same level of gear you have (endgame also). and a healer can even kill a weak mob if needed..not that you are going to die against trash..

At the end of the day Guard should be used by the Tank as an assist for him/her to hold aggro.

In a perfect group that would mean guarding the most aggro-stealing DPS, whether it be due to a burst-type scenario or sustained. However, not every group is perfect. Sometimes not all DPS know (or seem willing to follow) kill orders. Sometimes the Tank's gear and tactics are good enough for the healer to start DPSing (and if they're geared and knowledgeable deal more DPS than the actual DPS).

You can listen to people argue one way or another until TOR closes down, but at the end of the day you as the Tank need to make a decision based on your unique group on each particular run.

Case in point: Cadi HM, myself as my usual healer who is very overgeared, with the Tank and DPS in mixes of 66 and 69. I'm given guard. On the bonus boss, since I position myself where I can't be pulled in and just keep some Heals Over Time up on the group, I'm off-DPSing as well as healing. I pull aggro. Off the Tank. Through the guard. I tone down the DPS after that we live happily ever after. In that scenario it was right to guard the healer due to the make-up of the group.

Also don't be afraid to change your Guarded target. A marksman-spec DPS might need it when they can sit still, while the marauder might need it during the next fight. Keep that thing hot-keyed

At the end of the day Guard should be used by the Tank as an assist for him/her to hold aggro.

 

 

 

Also don't be afraid to change your Guarded target. A marksman-spec DPS might need it when they can sit still, while the marauder might need it during the next fight. Keep that thing hot-keyed

this is right..nobody says that guard is forever..but in a balanced good group of ppl knowing role/class (rare nowadays at least pugging) it will be one of those two dps to steal aggro, specially in ops where there aren't ords of trash..

at the end of the day guard should be used by the tank as an assist for him/her to hold aggro.

^^^ qft

i don't agree with you..healers can pop dcd aswell or their threat drop. healer's gonna never aggro if you are a good tank and with good dps , while dps can aggro even with the same level of gear you have (endgame also). and a healer can even kill a weak mob if needed..not that you are going to die against trash..

Trash in this game is stronger than bosses. And dps cannot pull aggro against a tank of the same or even lesser gear if that tank is doing everything properly. It simply cannot happen. Between your first two taunts you have 12 seconds of monopoly on threat and you only have two more globals between your third taunt, and if you can't hold aggro as a tank after your third taunt you need to l2p. That is worst possible case and very rarely would you ever need to even double taunt if you are tanking properly.

In fact the key to easy-mode tanking is knowing which dps is highest threat and using their threat to build your own, which is best facilitated by not having them guarded. Gaurd is a crutch for bad tanks and a mere fact of existence for good ones. Guard the people you can least afford to die, aka your healers (actually in nefra that is why it is often advantageous to guard the other tank, with the ultra rapid threat generation in that fight, you get the largest possible benefit out of the 5% dr.)

Also for note, The drouks in dp hm hit harder than any boss in that instance. The trash in DF hm is the only real threat during any of the boss fights. The valley of death in snv hm hits harder than any boss in that instance.

Honestly the thing with heals is you only protect them because you are safeguarding against the worst possible case. Nothing in this game requires guards so the only reason to use it is to protect best against o **** moments, which is best served by guarding healers.

You will find a lot beginner-tanks that are often focused on the strongest target.

True, but the OP specifically said he was working "to keep mobs away from everyone as best I could". And because of the way healing threat works in this game, it doesn't take much effort to keep all but the most dispersed of trash packs away from the healer.

Even as a healer i am getting aggro from mobs that are attacked by dps. Who do you think was attacked by the other mobs that are not tanked or attacked by anyone ?

This is going to sound more accusatory than I mean...but I don' t know how else to phrase it. Healing is not going to pull aggro from mobs being hit by the tank or DPS, because healing threat is 50% of DPS threat, further reduced by talents, and then divided across all mobs you are in combat with. And overhealing doesn't generate threat, nor does the sorc bubble.

The one and only case that I can think of that you might legitimately get aggro is from a sentinel, shadow, or operative DPS that stealths, thus resetting their aggro to 0.

But yes, if DPS and tanks don't hit them, you will have aggro. No argument there. Except that, in this case, the only thing guard is going to do for you is the 5% damage reduction. You will still have threat.

And in any case, the correct solution usually isn't to guard the healer. It is to instruct the DPS to kill weakest to strongest, and focus fire.

stuff...

All fine advice for situational considerations on who to guard in HM operations when you have two tanks and are swapping between them. But the OP was asking about low level flashpoints, where tanks don't even get their AoE taunt until level 35 (?).