All tooltips in the game show damage dealt, not damage inflicted after armor. Our tooltips do not show you the damage the ability will inflict after the target's armor.

 

I hope this clears things up for you guys. To the best of my knowledge, these abilities are still working as intended.

So if the damage is now correct for these abilities, how long was it incorrect for? How long have your play testers been playing with a class with broken abilities, providing information which then feeds into meetings for balancing the class? I ask because right now the class is obviously below par in both PvP and PvE and from what I can see, I must gather that in previous test and balancing the information from your internal testers just does not correlate with how the class is to play on live right now. I say that as I cannot believe it is a purposeful design decision to have a class which has next to no utility and such weak DPS when compared to other classes in the game.

so by cutting their armor rating by more than half how is it that their DR doesn't also reduce by more than half?

Diminishing Returns. This is why Heavy Armor is often said to be not as useful as it seems on the surface - after a while, more armor starts giving you less, and the diminishing returns start getting really bad at around 30%. Having 35% just from armor means you'd have to have an insane amount of armor, and AFAIK is not reachable by players without talents, so the first half will be armor that was already subject to diminishing returns. This also means that adding more armor debuffs from other players will result in even more of an increase in damage.

Actually, that's your fault for assuming that's how the statement worked out. I assumed it only reduced the armor value of the target as they described so it sounds right to me. Another reason why Accuracy is useless. No reason to pump Accuracy to absurd levels in hopes of getting 20-30% armor penetration which would maybe boost dps by 10% at the sacrifice of Crit and Surge.

Accuracy has never given armor penetration, and I'm surprised this myth still continues to spread. Accuracy over 100% reduces defense chance, NOT Armor. The in-game loading-screen hints are very clear about this. All Operation Bosses have 10% Defense. Accuracy over 110% is probably useless, but you still need over 100% to hit all of your attacks.

PS, increasing your DPS by 10% would be an increase of over 100-150 points, which is nothing to sneeze at.

Diminishing Returns. This is why Heavy Armor is often said to be not as useful as it seems on the surface - after a while, more armor starts giving you less, and the diminishing returns start getting really bad at around 30%. Having 35% just from armor means you'd have to have an insane amount of armor, and AFAIK is not reachable by players without talents, so the first half will be armor that was already subject to diminishing returns. This also means that adding more armor debuffs from other players will result in even more of an increase in damage.

Which is apparently why our dps fell so tremendously. Not only did HSM stop benefitting from others armor debuffs and other classes abilities but every single one of our attacks did. Which is logically the only thing that accounts for a class that lost 1/3 of it's base DPS in one patch.

Operations training dummies have 5814 armor rating (not visible to you), which translates through our armor formula to about 35% DR. With your setup, you cut that armor rating down by 55%, effectively turning it into 2616 armor rating. [5814 * 0.45 = 2616] 2616 armor rating translates through our armor formula to 19.5% DR.

 

so by cutting their armor rating by more than half how is it that their DR doesn't also reduce by more than half?

 

also, i get that you guys want our dps to be consistent with other dps classes; however, those other dps classes still have far more utility and defense compared to merc. i can accept being middling dd, but i can't accept that as well as not having an interrupt nor better defensive options (like an escape) that the other dps classes all possess.

Almost fell out of my chair reading this post as a prior Concealment Operative. Then I thought about it - although BH/C is still the best ranged (and close to overall when melee mechanics are factored) DPS in the game, giving them an interrupt would make facerolling operations easier. I say give it to them! If for nothing else than reading the follow-on threads of "I can't do max DPS while interrupting *** BW" and "Should BW DIAF for making us interrupt in operations? A civil discourse." Hilarity.

I read the Dev reply, and all I could think of was Jon Stewart going "BOOM!"

I'm all for players getting into their classes and crunching the numbers, but damn, someone got served.

Thats an awesome dev response.

The OP got told.

just goes to show that there are a lot of things ppl think is wrong when really they just don't understand how it works.

I hope this clears things up for you guys. To the best of my knowledge, these abilities are still working as intended.

Like I said, they don't play the game so they have absolutely no clue whatsoever as to what is really happening within the game...no mention of the non-functioning signature for HSM...but "these abilities are still working as intended"...the white mouse will NOT explode...

Thanks Austin, that's a great post, and it's pretty much inline with what the TC'ers have estimated.

Aside from that... There are so many "great" responses to this thread. The best of which is this.

All that aside, the most frustrating part of all of this is you balanced all of the Hardmode content on pre 1.2.0c damage and seeing how Mercs were hit with a nerf bigger than any class thus far, yes even the Operatives who still top the damage meters, it is apparent that you guys need to look at the fights as a whole again.

Operatives are topping your DPS meters. I'm not even sure what to say. Although the next guy summed it up pretty well, until he said..

Then I thought about it - although BH/C is still the best ranged (and close to overall when melee mechanics are factored) DPS in the game, giving them an interrupt would make facerolling operations easier.

Sorry bro, BH/C are not the best ranged DPS. Our marauders are amazing, but our sorcs win almost every fight in damage because every fight just plays to their strengths. (Not that sorcs are overpowered, sorc single target DPS still isn't great.) Mercs are still pretty good damage, I've seen other threads where mercs just rock the meters, but I'm not seeing any mercs break 2k DPS without the double damage assistance of the facilitator droid.

Mercs could probably use a tiny bit of tweaking if we require all things to be equal, but to be honest that's just really boring and I think everything should stay as it is, and we should let it play out. Mercs will get better with more gear, and will scale pretty well. Mercs bring arguably the best buff in the game too with armor debuff. Mercs are definitely not going to lose their spots since they can bring that debuff, so I don't think they need to be top DPS either.

Keep posting guys, I'm having a jolly good time.

Hi Phasewalker. I wanted to drop in to tell you that these abilities aren't broken. Considering your small sample size, your numbers are actually quite accurate.

...SNIP..

And this is why people need to stop QQing that they think they know everything and let the devs get back to work fixing what is actually broken.

Mercs bring arguably the best buff in the game too with armor debuff. Mercs are definitely not going to lose their spots since they can bring that debuff, so I don't think they need to be top DPS either.

 

Keep posting guys, I'm having a jolly good time.

this made me lol your saying that we will still have a spot due to haveing best buff in game well that went out the window with 1.2 as well cause now everyone who took the time to level one past chapter 2 can give our buff now. only thing we offer is the debuff which isn't enough to keep our spot secure when can replace us with higher dps and get same or better results

And this is why people need to stop QQing that they think they know everything and let the devs get back to work fixing what is actually broken.

Mercs bring arguably the best buff in the game too with armor debuff

You mean, the broken armor debuff...?? The one Snipers have which is instantaneous--meaning you don't have to spam TM 5X for it to (theoretically) stack--and lasts 3X longer than ours does...is that the armor debuff you're referring to...??

this made me lol your saying that we will still have a spot due to haveing best buff in game well that went out the window with 1.2 as well cause now everyone who took the time to level one past chapter 2 can give our buff now. only thing we offer is the debuff which isn't enough to keep our spot secure when can replace us with higher dps and get same or better results

I... don't even... what?

You mean, the broken armor debuff...?? The one Snipers have which is instantaneous--meaning you don't have to spam TM 5X for it to (theoretically) stack--and lasts 3X longer than ours does...is that the armor debuff you're referring to...??

Yes, snipers bring it too, but snipers are more stationary and I don't want a raid full of them. Our mercs are right there with our sniper in stand-still-and-nuke situations, maybe only slightly behind.

Although now that you mention it, snipers can keep it up on two targets at the same time. So, if you know a really good sniper who wants to reroll..........

Our mercs are right there with our sniper in stand-still-and-nuke situations, maybe only slightly behind.

In my mind, an Arsenal Merc should be at or near the top of the list--a well spec'd and well geared Sniper can deal out some pretty hefty damage...but the lists people are submitting see Mercs at or near the bottom...yet this company man of a dev tries to tell us there's nothing wrong...when our damage output is reduced by a good 20% and this is on top of the HSM sig not working--which they know about yet refuse to fix for some reason--yeah, there's something wrong and even if/when they get around to fixing the HSM issue there's still the DFA radius issue AND the armor debuff issue

Although now that you mention it, if you know a really good sniper who wants to reroll..........

I do no raiding, no WZ's, no HM's, no FP's and no PVP--I am a solo PVE'er...I do have a MM Sniper I'm grinding, he's currently on Balmorra, level 18 I think...plus at best I'm a below average player so I don't see myself being very much help...

Thanks Austin, that's a great post, and it's pretty much inline with what the TC'ers have estimated.

 

Aside from that... There are so many "great" responses to this thread. The best of which is this.

 

 

Operatives are topping your DPS meters. I'm not even sure what to say. Although the next guy summed it up pretty well, until he said..

 

 

Sorry bro, BH/C are not the best ranged DPS. Our marauders are amazing, but our sorcs win almost every fight in damage because every fight just plays to their strengths. (Not that sorcs are overpowered, sorc single target DPS still isn't great.) Mercs are still pretty good damage, I've seen other threads where mercs just rock the meters, but I'm not seeing any mercs break 2k DPS without the double damage assistance of the facilitator droid.

 

Mercs could probably use a tiny bit of tweaking if we require all things to be equal, but to be honest that's just really boring and I think everything should stay as it is, and we should let it play out. Mercs will get better with more gear, and will scale pretty well. Mercs bring arguably the best buff in the game too with armor debuff. Mercs are definitely not going to lose their spots since they can bring that debuff, so I don't think they need to be top DPS either.

 

Keep posting guys, I'm having a jolly good time.

I guess YMMV, but the top two single-target PvE DPS classes from my experience are BH (ranged) and Marauder (melee). Sorcs can cheese the meters with AoE but that's not very helpful.

I guess YMMV, but the top two single-target PvE DPS classes from my experience are BH (ranged) and Marauder (melee). Sorcs can cheese the meters with AoE but that's not very helpful.

That's because 95% of sorcs aren't very good at this game. The other 5% though only lose to marauders, and only on fights when marauders don't have to move.

The same methodology above applies to your Heatseeker Missiles. The tooltip says they deal an average of 2194 kinetic damage. Since the target has 5 Heat Signatures, that HSM deals 2632 kinetic damage. [2194 * 1.2 = 2632] Cutting through the same 55% armor rating as before, the target still has 19.5% DR, meaning that on average, your HSM inflicts 2119 kinetic damage. [2632 * 0.805 = 2119] This is only 1% different than the 2145 you reported, which given your small sample size is well within expectations.

Shouldn't that [2194 *1.2] be *1.25? Or did I miss something about Gravity Vortex stacks increasing damage of demolition round by 4% instead of 5% per stack now?

In your experience, how much more single-target DPS does a sorc do over a BH?

edit: @xenofire

In your experience, how much more single-target DPS does a sorc do over a BH?

 

edit: @xenofire

Single target DPS? I'd probably say sorcs are only going to beat a BH in a single target fight if the timing is right, like if the fight ends closer to their cooldowns being used. Snipers are the best single target ranged DPS though, not mercs. But single target DPS doesn't matter.

How many single target only fights are there in the game? Gharj, Anni droid, and Soa-- all in EC. You don't even get Black hole comms from those fights, so nobody even does them.

Sorcs have dots they can apply to multiple targets, they can do 4.5-7s of DPS while on the move depending on spec, they have force speed so they get places faster when moving, they have chain lightning or death field for great instant AOE... All advantages over mercs.

Hmm. On Z&T our ranged DPS are in turret mode so single-target is more important. Same with the tanks, though I could see trying to keep dots up on both as a sorc (though that's a lot of movement to stay in position for adds phase). The minefield is a bit of a wash for DPS in general, though the most important DPS is the 'splodin droids so still helpful to have superior single target DPS. On the last boss there are opportunities for AoE (first add phase) but the two droids, bomb mobs, and the last boss are single-target DPS.

I have no experience with sniper DPS, so I have no clue how much better they are than mercs so I'll have to take your word that they are superior as ranged DPS in operations (though the severe lack of movement is concerning...).

To be clear I see your signature and my guild has not cleared EC HM16 (we only raid 8M and haven't cleared EC HM, only story mode), so the disadvantages of turret single-target DPS may become apparent soon.

To be clear I see your signature and my guild has not cleared EC HM16 (we only raid 8M and haven't cleared EC HM, only story mode), so the disadvantages of turret single-target DPS may become apparent soon.

Oh, don't egt me wrong, there's no single target dps disadvantage, but in every single fight sorcs can easily keep up their dots on both mobs with no issues. Since the single target DPS difference is only slight between mercs and sorcs, even the smallest amount will push a sorc over the edge. On Z&T you can clearly see this distinction, at least in our parses.

On the tanks, sorcs have a huge advantage. Sit on one tank, DPS the other, keep up dots on both, and force speed to your bubble, then force speed back. Mercs take forever running back and forth.

On vorgath the reason sucks are better are the supreme burst DPS and the chain lightning on all the little adds. Mercs have bad burst DPS, they have to stack their missiles first. Then on the second phase, you start with two adds you can chain lightning down, and the turrets spawn that you have to kill, and each turret requires burst DPS. The turrets will die before a merc can even fully stack tracer missile to get off a HS.

On Kephiss there is lots of movement, the little adds die too quickly for merc AOE to matter (chain lightning is win) and even if you do death from above you only get one round of adds in it. You can keep dots on both polarity droids, and there is a bit of movement in the last phase that favors sorcs over mercs.

All in all, it's not merc DPS that's the problem, it's just that fights as designed aren't favorable for them.

That is a great explanation. Makes me want to level up a sorc DPS. Thanks

The downside to sorc dps is we don't provide armor debuffs, and those things are a huge premium.

Unfortunately I think that makes sorc DPS only truly viable in 16 man, not 8 man. When I've done 8 man on my sorc it's been as a healer, for that reason. Unless you composition is something like, jugg tank x2, sniper, merc, mara, sorc... Then you'd get 4 debuffs, so it'd probably be a wash between a merc dps and a sorc dps.

When you don't have at least 4-5 armor debuffs, a merc is always better than the sorc for dps. Once you get over that 5 armor debuff premium though, bring on the sorc DPS.

What all of this means though is when they finally fix armor debuffs so there can only be one, that marauders will be 20-30% better than the next class, and will need a huge nerf.

That is a great explanation. Makes me want to level up a sorc DPS. Thanks

After checking out the Lightning tree, I'm kinda sorry I went Assassin...oh well...

What all of this means though is when they finally fix armor debuffs so there can only be one

IF they fix it, according to Mr Devmaster Flash there's nothing wrong and everything is working as intended...our 20+% drop in damage is nothing but our imagination and L2P issues...