Jump to content

Scoundrel/Operatives are strong


Jordankwells

Recommended Posts

Ok so I know that when it comes to the three healing classes each has there ups and downs and are good a on thing then the others. Now I say this because I was just in a PvP match and the whole time a sentinel, guardian and myself (sage healer) was fighting this one scoundrel, 3 vs 1. I'm not sure what his specs were but I do know that I saw some heals and he keep taking out the other two if I didn't heal them. So my question is how can scoundrel stand up to that kind of attack? I am asking that because I am a decent healer I have the top gear/mods and the top augments and I can't stand up to 3 others like that. This is not the first time that I have seen the scoundrel/operative class hold their own like that with hardly a scratch on them. I also know it how good you are at playing the toon, but come on the scoundrels and operative are way strong. Is it suppose to be like each class can stand up to one another, but it feels like the scoundrels and operatives are at the top with multiple stuns, heals, high attacks, and stealth.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ok so I know that when it comes to the three healing classes each has there ups and downs and are good a on thing then the others. Now I say this because I was just in a PvP match and the whole time a sentinel, guardian and myself (sage healer) was fighting this one scoundrel, 3 vs 1. I'm not sure what his specs were but I do know that I saw some heals and he keep taking out the other two if I didn't heal them. So my question is how can scoundrel stand up to that kind of attack? I am asking that because I am a decent healer I have the top gear/mods and the top augments and I can't stand up to 3 others like that. This is not the first time that I have seen the scoundrel/operative class hold their own like that with hardly a scratch on them. I also know it how good you are at playing the toon, but come on the scoundrels and operative are way strong. Is it suppose to be like each class can stand up to one another, but it feels like the scoundrels and operatives are at the top with multiple stuns, heals, high attacks, and stealth.

 

Scoundrels have the best personal survivability. However, they have the worst single target burst (which is the most important in PvP generally speaking). It's a trade off.

 

Also, if a sentinel dps, a guardian dps, and a sage healer couldn't bring a operative dps down, it means the 3 of you need to get better at dps (if it was a tank guardian, they should swap into dps gear tbh).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ok so I know that when it comes to the three healing classes each has there ups and downs and are good a on thing then the others. Now I say this because I was just in a PvP match and the whole time a sentinel, guardian and myself (sage healer) was fighting this one scoundrel, 3 vs 1. I'm not sure what his specs were but I do know that I saw some heals and he keep taking out the other two if I didn't heal them. So my question is how can scoundrel stand up to that kind of attack? I am asking that because I am a decent healer I have the top gear/mods and the top augments and I can't stand up to 3 others like that. This is not the first time that I have seen the scoundrel/operative class hold their own like that with hardly a scratch on them. I also know it how good you are at playing the toon, but come on the scoundrels and operative are way strong. Is it suppose to be like each class can stand up to one another, but it feels like the scoundrels and operatives are at the top with multiple stuns, heals, high attacks, and stealth.

 

Respectfully, it's a L2P issue. Mechanically, operatives survivability is mostly "active"; i.e., roll. They have to spend a GCD to evade or, in the case of Lethality, proc Infusion (which costs another GCD). Things like Shield Probe and Evasion are good in a pinch, but aren't design so an operative go full mongoloid (/wave @ Juggs). Here's some tips, if you don't already know:

 

  • Operatives have no DR when stunned (Evasion is negated when stunned as well). So as a DPS, time your burst with your hard stun.
  • If they're Concealment, keep track of their rolls. If you see them double roll (generally a big no-no unless you really need to GFTO), wait a GCD then root/hinder/stun. Lethality gets a free heal every 8secs, but you can CC them anytime you want.
  • Roots force an operative to use Countermeasures/Halo (if spec'd), Evasion or their cleanse (depending on the type of root), the latter being on the GCD. Likely they'll roll afterwards, so another GCD they aren't doing damage.
  • If they're white-barred and you want to secure the kill, use a Hinder ability (enet, gore).

 

Since you were the healer, help out the DPS (who clearly weren't very good) by throwing out some damage and chaining a stun off theirs.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Scoundrels have the best personal survivability. However, they have the worst single target burst (which is the most important in PvP generally speaking). It's a trade off.

 

Also, if a sentinel dps, a guardian dps, and a sage healer couldn't bring a operative dps down, it means the 3 of you need to get better at dps (if it was a tank guardian, they should swap into dps gear tbh).

 

Scrapper/concealment isn't quite THAT bad for single target burst. :p

 

DPS by dummy parse (per Smarty's sheet):

Fury/ Concentration

Pyrotech / Plasmatech

Lethality / Ruffian

Annihilation/ Watchman

Vengeance I Vigilance

Hatred / Serenity

Innovative Ordnance I Assault Specialist

Virulence I Dirty Fighting

Advanced Prototype I Tactics

Engineering / Saboteur

Deception/ Infiltration

Rage/ Focus

Concealment/ Scrapper

Madness / Balance

Carnage I Combat

Lightning/ Telekinetics

Marksman/ Sharpshooter

Arsenal/ Gunnery

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Scrapper/concealment isn't quite THAT bad for single target burst. :p

 

DPS by dummy parse (per Smarty's sheet):

Fury/ Concentration

Pyrotech / Plasmatech

Lethality / Ruffian

Annihilation/ Watchman

Vengeance I Vigilance

Hatred / Serenity

Innovative Ordnance I Assault Specialist

Virulence I Dirty Fighting

Advanced Prototype I Tactics

Engineering / Saboteur

Deception/ Infiltration

Rage/ Focus

Concealment/ Scrapper

Madness / Balance

Carnage I Combat

Lightning/ Telekinetics

Marksman/ Sharpshooter

Arsenal/ Gunnery

 

 

That order is outdated now, Currently the DPS pecking order is now -

 

 

 

Concentration / Fury

Plasmatech / Pyrotech

Watchman / Annihilation

Vigilance / Vengeance

Ruffian / Lethality

Serenity / Hatred

Tactics / Advanced Prototype

Saboteur / Engineering

Focus / Rage

Assault Specialist / Innovative Ordnance

Infiltration / Deception

Dirty Fighting / Virulence

Scrapper / Concealment

Combat / Carnage

Balance / Madness

Sharpshooter / Marksmanship

Telekinetics / Lightning

Gunnery / Arsenal

 

http://parsely.io/parser/stats

 

 

Total BS. Yeah cuz that order makes sense. It's a friggen crime.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Scrapper/concealment isn't quite THAT bad for single target burst. :p

 

DPS by dummy parse (per Smarty's sheet):

Fury/ Concentration

Pyrotech / Plasmatech

Lethality / Ruffian

Annihilation/ Watchman

Vengeance I Vigilance

Hatred / Serenity

Innovative Ordnance I Assault Specialist

Virulence I Dirty Fighting

Advanced Prototype I Tactics

Engineering / Saboteur

Deception/ Infiltration

Rage/ Focus

Concealment/ Scrapper

Madness / Balance

Carnage I Combat

Lightning/ Telekinetics

Marksman/ Sharpshooter

Arsenal/ Gunnery

 

That list is for PvE, this is based on the PvP aspect of the game. That order is irrelevant for PvP

Link to comment
Share on other sites

That list is for PvE, this is based on the PvP aspect of the game. That order is irrelevant for PvP

 

I'm a little confused than,because DPS can only be measured by one Math formula. So if you are suggesting that there is a different math formula to measure DPS for PVP, I'd like to know what that equation is so I can veryify the legitimacy and accuracy of the alternate 'Only for PVP formula.

 

The last time I checked, it was impossible to measure DPS using any other formula than the ones used by mainstream Parsing programs for "PVE only DPS'. So I'm very curious as to the "PVP only DPS formula' which if it is different than PVE it is defying the Laws of Physics.

 

As the entire game is based on math equations I'd like to know what math equation is used to ascertain DPS in PVP.

 

Additionally, I'd like to know the name of the 'only PVP' parsing program used to do this as it's impossible to do in a person's head or with fingers and toes.

 

Funny thing is, I have used parsing programs in PVP and it seemed to me that the statistical information it provided when it was used in PVP was not only accurate per combat state and reset it was compiled in PVP in the exact same way it is in 'PVE. I didn't see any alternate math equations used.

 

I'd like to know the extent of the pool of players this alternate ranking was based.

 

The thing about math, it's always verifiable to an absolute extent.

 

Facts are based on irrefutable findings, if they weren't they wouldn't be facts yet, just a theory. So if what you are suggesting is true to a certainty it would be verifiable. And I'm sure you didn't come to believe there is a difference in how DPS is measured between PVP and PVE if you yourself didn't see the verifiable proof that there are two different math formulas and what those distinct formulas are.

 

I'm a bit sceptical so I'd like to see the PVP only DPS formulas to test the validity of it. I'm sure you would understand that I can't just take on faith when it runs counter to everything I am aware of that can measure DPS to a reliable efficacy in SWTOR. A different formula being used in PVP still could only be obtained through a parsing program, it can't be done in someone's head. I mean of all math equations could be done in someone's head, God wouldn't have felt the need to give us calculaters in RL. There must be also a PVP parsering program because it's just a different formula than the PVE formula and you need parsing programs in PVE to measure DPS you would need one that functions for the PVP statistical computation gathering as well.

 

There aren't options in mainstream parsers for different settings for PVE or PVP. I have never heard of any different parsing programs that cater only to PVP.

 

I'm into theory crafting [ on a very minor level because I'm terrible at math heh] and testing varying stat builds and rotations for efficiency and all that and statistical information pools found on Parsely which is like the "unofficial" headquarters for information of that sort as it's constantly being updated and provides a +5/-5 accuracy of the pooled contributions of the statistical information uploaded and updated for spec to spec comparisons.

 

There isn't a PVP section on parsley though. It would require a PVP only formula for that for reliability. Perhaps once the PVP only DPS formula is shared and verified scientifically a PVP section maybe one day be included once the pooled information was sufficient enough for reliable analysis.

 

Please let me know what the formula used in PVP to measure DPS accurately is. I definitely wanna do some rudimentary testing of it. I'm excited at the prospect actually, this is SO up my alley. I love this kinda crap heh

 

That alone will keep me busy for a month!

 

Be good yo. :)

Edited by WayOfTheWarriorx
Link to comment
Share on other sites

That list is for PvE, this is based on the PvP aspect of the game. That order is irrelevant for PvP

 

Whatever the case, they are certainly not the worst single target burst. If you want to argue that they are the worst melee single target burst, then I more or less agree.

 

I just wanted to respond because scrapper is my favorite spec and I am heavily biased. :)

Edited by Rion_Starkiller
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Whatever the case, they are certainly not the worst single target burst. If you want to argue that they are the worst melee single target burst, then I more or less agree.

 

I just wanted to respond because scrapper is my favorite spec and I am heavily biased. :)

 

Haha, woops I meants to say operative heals (since I assumed that is what he was referring to, because even concealment shouldn't be able to survive an entire match with 3 people trying to kill it, but re-reading his post, I assume that is exactly what happened since he said the dps would take a lot of damage quickly every once in a while).

 

Nah, concealment is good, I meant that operative heals have the worst single target heals of the 3 healing specs, but the best survivability. That is the trade off I was talking about.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I meant that operative heals have the worst single target heals of the 3 healing specs, but the best survivability. That is the trade off I was talking about.

 

You are totally wrong though. Operatives do have the best single target healing (they have the worst burst heals but their sustain is the best). Look here - http://parsely.io/parser/healer-leaderboard/1

 

And how do they have better survivability than a sorc or a merc?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ok so I know that when it comes to the three healing classes each has there ups and downs and are good a on thing then the others. Now I say this because I was just in a PvP match and the whole time a sentinel, guardian and myself (sage healer) was fighting this one scoundrel, 3 vs 1. I'm not sure what his specs were but I do know that I saw some heals and he keep taking out the other two if I didn't heal them. So my question is how can scoundrel stand up to that kind of attack? I am asking that because I am a decent healer I have the top gear/mods and the top augments and I can't stand up to 3 others like that. This is not the first time that I have seen the scoundrel/operative class hold their own like that with hardly a scratch on them. I also know it how good you are at playing the toon, but come on the scoundrels and operative are way strong. Is it suppose to be like each class can stand up to one another, but it feels like the scoundrels and operatives are at the top with multiple stuns, heals, high attacks, and stealth.

 

They are a very strong class, but if you play to their weaknesses you'll find they can be killed. It's all about controlling the scoundrel at the right moment when they start to get low. The class has a very high skill ceiling and some players make it look effortless. It's why you don't see a lot of great ones in PvP.

 

I put up a video on youtube that you may find interesting, it's me as ruffian spec engaging a lot of people and never dying. May give you some perspective on how the class can do it. Well, they do get me once at the very end, but it was almost over.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm a little confused than,because DPS can only be measured by one Math formula. So if you are suggesting that there is a different math formula to measure DPS for PVP, I'd like to know what that equation is so I can veryify the legitimacy and accuracy of the alternate 'Only for PVP formula.

 

To be completely honest with you I can not be f*cked reading your wall of text, so I just read the first two paragraphs. Now to explain my point... PvE parising for parsely has no ‘real fight’ elements to it, hence why it’s the phrase dummy parsing exists for when you get to stand there and dps uninterrupted. For PvP there is no such thing as dummy parsing, it’s simply not possible since in PvP you’re most likely going to be attacked and forced to kite and interrupt your dps and potentially get killed, while I’m PvE there are two people who’s sole purpose in that group is to get attacked instead of the dps.

 

Now I say that parsely numbers are irrelevant for PvP based off the fact that certain specs and classes may pull high damage uninterrupted but once some focuses them or they are forced to stop dpsing they loose more than others. PT is a prime example of this... PT is a glass cannon so they will die extraordinarily faster than everyone else resulting in less dps. Marksmanship is also in a similar boat, marksman parses fairly low on a dummy while in PvP they parse highly.

 

You see PvP and PvE and completely different areas of the game with different resources. They both also have different aspects that will make a class perform higher in one area than the other. PvP requires you to be able to kite enemies (which will result in a dps loss for almost all classes), you need to pop defensives in particular orders and at particular times for certain abilities. While in PvE you will have uninterrupted up time al most all the time giving you more dps.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 4 months later...
I'm a little confused than,because DPS can only be measured by one Math formula. So if you are suggesting that there is a different math formula to measure DPS for PVP, I'd like to know what that equation is so I can veryify the legitimacy and accuracy of the alternate 'Only for PVP formula

 

There's generally 4 types of dps parsing:

 

 

Theoretical DPS

The first two types are what a lot of guides are about and that's theoretical parsing in which they use the WZ or Operation training dummies to parse their dps. It's theoretical because you have 100% uptime on your offense and no need for DCD's

 

Realistic DPS

These are dps which are not so easily quantifiable and can always have differing results per person, class, spec, etc.. And these are dps parsing on actual players in a live PvP match or parsing in an Operation. It's called realistic dps because this is the real damage you'll do considering boss mechanics, player DCD's, dps downtime, etc..

 

There's still really one "formula" for dps parsing, just different types. Just as an example there are those that consider lethality ops to beat fury Marauder's even though Marauder's are a higher parsing class because you can't maintain 100% uptime on your opponent

Link to comment
Share on other sites

×
×
  • Create New...