Hi, im here to make a constructive post and hear your thoughts regarding my opinions within:

 

that said! lets get onto my concerns:

 

Tanking, why oh why would i bring a melee tank when i could bring a ranged tank? as a Guardian i honestly feel like im gimping my group by being there, now i want to clarify that i am NOT saying guardians cant tank, i have cleared all the raids normal modes and done alot on hard, it hasnt been too much of a problem, its not that its impossible, its that its not OPTIMAL, for example on the rancor, why the heck would you bring a melee tank that can get flung into the acid the second he turns around and takes a dislike to you, where as you can effectively kite him and maintain constant damage as a vanguard for example.

 

The turrets on the annihilator droid is another great example, how on earth am i supposed to maintain aggro on those things? i cant even hit them, attacking the power generators at their base seems to generate no aggro, all i can do is blade storm it every cooldown and force push/stasis, its not enough - we actually tank these now with a DPS shadow, its laughable

 

which brings me on to another thing, shadow tanks fundementally generate much more threat than guardian tanks, because they do much more damage and get the same threat bonuses, not to mention they have a much easier time of kiting bosses around that need to be moved, because they can maintain aggro from range (soa, the second to last boss in kiraggas palace, etc)

 

why dont guardians get extra aggro on force sweep? AOE tanking is practically impossible for us, or extra threat on guardian slash? or something?

 

 

Now, im not simply unhappy with my class, there are a ton of other issues - from what i can tell Sorceror/sages are by far and above the BEST (bar non) healing and possibly also DPS for Pve, on Soa for example when jumping down the falling platforms, if you dont have a sage its going to be really hard, heck its a pain without Both healers being sages, Commandos are useless in comparison, no hot's, no shields, THEY CANT EVEN COMBAT RES, AOE heals of commando/smuggler are laughable in comparison to those of the sage, i hate that i feel theres basically no point in trying to recruit healers of any class apart from Jedi sage, because they dont seem to have nearly as much utility/Use

 

 

again im not saying its not possible without a sage, im saying that from what i can see, it seems much harder without, not impossible,

 

with larger raid sizes of 16 etc it doesnt matter so much, because you have a bit of room for class diversity, in 8 man mode it gets harder to justify bringing along certain class specs to fulfill certain roles, when others just seem to perform massively better, i cant explain how frustrating it is for me sometimes as a tank to be literally unable to hold aggro due to some stupid mechanic

 

alright, lets say the turrets are there to encourage diversity, so some tanks have to be vanguards or shadows, and not all JK, fair enough - but guess what? if the raid starts with a shadow/vanguard tank, the odds are it will end that way aswell, why go to the trouble of swapping in a sub optimal Tank after the fight they are useless on is over and done with?

 

Also another gripe of mine is how much this game seems to hate melee dps in raids, yes i know you can succeed with melee dps, because i've done it pretty much every raid so far, but what i really ask myself is - Why bother? in nightmare mode if i was pushing for a world first, i cant imagine why i would bring melee dps to several encounters, gharj for example, or kiragga, or Soa, the rancor ( for a whole host of reasons, having to avoid aoe damage near a boss so losing tons of dps time, having to travel back and forth between targets when damage needs switching, taking proximity damage that ranged dont have to worry about, etc)

 

im sure im missing some examples, if someone has good counter points please bring them to me because id love to be proven wrong, if you're going to reply with "its fine because we did encounter X with Y class" please dont bother, what i want is for someone have a valid reason for why i wouldnt bring another class/classes given the choice

 

 

*** AND THEN ***

 

we get into the really ridiculous stuff right now, pylon bosses still bugged, incorrect loot being allocated, the grass boss, all the SOA Bugs that are still live

 

HOW does this stuff get past the test realm? im losing members left right and center right now because of this kind of thing, how does it even make it on to the test realm? i havent played wow for years, i despise it and would never go back, but this would never even get onto wow's test server, let alone make in to Live

Edited January 19, 2012 by Tohrazer

tl;dr, but there are way too many fights that are melee-unfriendly, and I've yet to run into one that was range-unfriendly.

 

Last night we tried the bonus boss in the new FP; jugg tank, jugg dps (me), assassin dps, ranged healer. Too much melee makes that fight way too hard to bother with, but if we'd had some ranged, it would have been cake. HK is much easier with ranged. The list goes on.

 

My point is that there is never a downside to bringing more ranged, but there is often a downside to bring more melee.

tl;dr, but there are way too many fights that are melee-unfriendly, and I've yet to run into one that was range-unfriendly.

 

Last night we tried the bonus boss in the new FP; jugg tank, jugg dps (me), assassin dps, ranged healer. Too much melee makes that fight way too hard to bother with, but if we'd had some ranged, it would have been cake. HK is much easier with ranged. The list goes on.

 

My point is that there is never a downside to bringing more ranged, but there is often a downside to bring more melee.

 

thanks, thats more or less my entire gripe in a much more concise fashion, read this if you think my OP is tl:dr

A lot of MMOs are like this. Melee get hit by everything twice as much. Usually there are ways to avoid this, more defensive cooldowns, more health, etc etc.

 

Also melee are more likely to pull more dps quicker then ranged, to even out moving and such.

Edited January 19, 2012 by Vehar

A lot of MMOs are like this. Melee get hit by everything twice as much. Usually there are ways to avoid this, more defensive cooldowns, more health, etc etc.

 

Also melee are more likely to pull more dps quicker then ranged, to even out moving and such.

 

its the healing aswell though, sages are SO MUCH better than commandos, commando doesnt even get a combat res, its ridiculous

its the healing aswell though, sages are SO MUCH better than commandos, commando doesnt even get a combat res, its ridiculous

Meh I haven't heard that about healing in fact I hear a lot of good come from commando healing, people like it. As for the combat rez, not every healer needs one =/

What I dont think you get is that the term "ranged" tank shouldnt even be a term. Any vanguard that stands more than 5 meters away from the target isnt tanking. All of your tanking abilities can only be used within melee distance anyway.

What I dont think you get is that the term "ranged" tank shouldnt even be a term. Any vanguard that stands more than 5 meters away from the target isnt tanking. All of your tanking abilities can only be used within melee distance anyway.

 

you are really missing the point, did you even read my thread? did you DO the encounters i mentioned?

What I dont think you get is that the term "ranged" tank shouldnt even be a term. Any vanguard that stands more than 5 meters away from the target isnt tanking. All of your tanking abilities can only be used within melee distance anyway.

 

DPS is tanking after a certain point, and yes you can 'ranged tank' quite effectively on an Assassin that's Darkness spec. although I can't speak to how 'ranged' a Powertech is.

 

And yes, it's way easier to tank on an Assassin tank as well since you have some ranged options. Jugg. only gets a few, and none of them are stellar damage dealers or threat generators.

The game definitely favors ranged. There are fights where melee have to spend time running away, while ranged is still sitting there blasting away. And with some of these enrage timers it just doesn't make sense to bring in melee for those fights.

 

There are also some fights where having two tanks is pointless and others where it's necessary. It just feels like you have an extra player sometimes that doesn't do anything... which sucks for that player.

Name a mechanic that makes a fight range unfriendly and can't simply be solved by having range stack up in melee range. I can't really think of one.

 

It's the nature of the beast, nearly every MMO is melee-unfriendly.

for the turrets on anahilation droid, have an operative just slice droid one to cc it in, and you can force leap up to the top of the other, and actually attack it - if your sturggling with those, it's your fault for not using the tools available to you, not the game.

 

as for the healers, we don't have any mercenary healers in my guild, but we've had no problems doing 8man hards with 2 operatives as the only healers, and for 16 man we use 1 sorc and 3 operative healers. I can't comment on merc healers because we don't have any, but operatives do just fine.

 

I forget what else you said, and apparently these forums don't let you view posts for reference while making your own post

for the turrets on anahilation droid, have an operative just slice droid one to cc it in, and you can force leap up to the top of the other, and actually attack it - if your sturggling with those, it's your fault for not using the tools available to you, not the game.

 

as for the healers, we don't have any mercenary healers in my guild, but we've had no problems doing 8man hards with 2 operatives as the only healers, and for 16 man we use 1 sorc and 3 operative healers. I can't comment on merc healers because we don't have any, but operatives do just fine.

 

I forget what else you said, and apparently these forums don't let you view posts for reference while making your own post

 

incorrect, in the new patch they can no longer be CC'd apparently, Additionally force leap doesnt always keep you up there, sometimes you just fall down,

smuggler/operative healers have seemed pretty alright to me so far, but i dont understand why commando/merc lack basic things like a decent AOE heal/hot/ combat res??

 

also you fail to address things like the advantage ranged tanks have in maintaining aggro whilst kiting a boss to a certain position, or maintaining DPS on a random aggro boss, etc

Edited January 19, 2012 by Tohrazer

Meh I haven't heard that about healing in fact I hear a lot of good come from commando healing, people like it. As for the combat rez, not every healer needs one =/

 

My merc heals ok but I have to say that its 1000x easier as a sorc to heal.

It does suck that my aoe heal is restricted to 3 targets whilst sorc/sage has no target limit and heals for a lot more.

I can also see why they do this though because combined with Supercharged Gas it gives a 10% dmg reduction to those 3 targets and if this was to heal more targets then the dmg reduction would make it OP.

Also its annoying that my sorc heals everyone in the aoe and my merc heals 3 targets and it keeps healing people that dont need it and the people that do just end up dead.

This thread is simplified if you just learn the roles of each class. You're not supposed to have set positions in each group, some classes are better suited for certain fights. Break it down like this.

 

Merc/Comm heals are best for single target. ie main tank healing

Sorc/Sage heals are best for aoe. ie raid heals

Smug/Op heals are best for their HoTs. ie trash healing/ boss offheals

 

JK/Jugg is best for single target.

Assas/Shadow is best for ranged.

Van/Power is best for offtanking, often add drops in boss fights.

 

Our raids work well because myself (Jugg) and our assassin trade off tanking for certain parts of the raid. Our healers are a merc and sorc. The merc is main tank heals and it's amazing to get ***** to 20% then have them crit heal twice and you're back to full. Sorc heals makes it easier to keep up our ranged dps because of his aoe. We've never had many problems with our 8-mans. I think most people are too set on the idea that a tank should be able to tank anything when in reality, each class is meant to be specific in a more defined role.

This thread is simplified if you just learn the roles of each class. You're not supposed to have set positions in each group, some classes are better suited for certain fights. Break it down like this.

 

Merc/Comm heals are best for single target. ie main tank healing

Sorc/Sage heals are best for aoe. ie raid heals

Smug/Op heals are best for their HoTs. ie trash healing/ boss offheals

 

JK/Jugg is best for single target.

Assas/Shadow is best for ranged.

Van/Power is best for offtanking, often add drops in boss fights.

 

Our raids work well because myself (Jugg) and our assassin trade off tanking for certain parts of the raid. Our healers are a merc and sorc. The merc is main tank heals and it's amazing to get ***** to 20% then have them crit heal twice and you're back to full. Sorc heals makes it easier to keep up our ranged dps because of his aoe. We've never had many problems with our 8-mans. I think most people are too set on the idea that a tank should be able to tank anything when in reality, each class is meant to be specific in a more defined role.

 

 

if thats the case then it bypassed me when bioware were explaining their class design philosophy

The developers can say whatever they want about the game, how they make it do this and that and all the bells and whistles, but if you're having problems where certain things don't work, don't you think it's retarded to keep trying to do it and get yourself frustrated. This method works, I'm telling you from experience.

The game definitely favors ranged. There are fights where melee have to spend time running away, while ranged is still sitting there blasting away. And with some of these enrage timers it just doesn't make sense to bring in melee for those fights.

 

There are also some fights where having two tanks is pointless and others where it's necessary. It just feels like you have an extra player sometimes that doesn't do anything... which sucks for that player.

 

This is a big issue, in Karraga's 4/5 you HAVE TO use a second tank but in 5/5, single tank is more than enough. So for optimal raiding, the offtank should spec dps in the middle of an op? What a load of ********.

 

Also yes, game obviously favors ranged. Something melee can do , bet your *** ranged can do it better. To compensate, melee should have more survivability or dps but neihter of this is present.

 

And not only pve, in pvp it's the same. Ranged got same amount of survivabilty, dps and cc as melee. How Bioware messed balance up this bad is a mystery.

Edited January 20, 2012 by Requimo

This thread is simplified if you just learn the roles of each class. You're not supposed to have set positions in each group, some classes are better suited for certain fights. Break it down like this.

 

Merc/Comm heals are best for single target. ie main tank healing

Sorc/Sage heals are best for aoe. ie raid heals

Smug/Op heals are best for their HoTs. ie trash healing/ boss offheals

 

JK/Jugg is best for single target.

Assas/Shadow is best for ranged.

Van/Power is best for offtanking, often add drops in boss fights.

 

Our raids work well because myself (Jugg) and our assassin trade off tanking for certain parts of the raid. Our healers are a merc and sorc. The merc is main tank heals and it's amazing to get ***** to 20% then have them crit heal twice and you're back to full. Sorc heals makes it easier to keep up our ranged dps because of his aoe. We've never had many problems with our 8-mans. I think most people are too set on the idea that a tank should be able to tank anything when in reality, each class is meant to be specific in a more defined role.

 

I'm a shadow tank myself and I can't think of a single situation a jugg tank can be better than me.

 

You also failed to mention the dps situation. Name some situations melee dps are better than ranged dps please.

Edited January 20, 2012 by Requimo

Sounds more like an encounter issue then a class issue. They need to either make an equal amount of encounters that favor melee, or if that's not possible then change the encounters so there isn't this disadvantage for melee in them. Edited January 20, 2012 by ddayyy

You can force leap to the turrets to tank them. You have armor debuff ability which is HUGE if your raid group doesn't have a sniper. You have arguably the best defensive cooldown in the game (Invincible/Warding Call). Bonetrasher requires 0 tanks because you can't really keep aggro on him anyway - and you won't get knocked into acid if you don't run close to the edge. Your aoe threat doesn't matter because there is barely any aoe tanking in this game, there is usually no way to get a whole group of adds in one spot and aoe them down like in other mmos - it's also not needed because most trash mobs even in raids can be easily offtanked by dps. Also, every single mmo I've played favoured ranged dps, so that's nothing new - it doesn't mean melee is not needed or not viable, even though Bioware doesn't seem to compensate for this.

 

Yes this game has a bunch of problems. Guardian/Jugg tanks not being one of them.

Edited January 20, 2012 by Manv

Sucks they made melee dps pretty useless, ranged is better for pretty much every boss of every fp/op. Edited January 20, 2012 by Tulukord

double post Edited January 20, 2012 by Tulukord

This is a big issue, in Karraga's 4/5 you HAVE TO use a second tank but in 5/5, single tank is more than enough. So for optimal raiding, the offtank should spec dps in the middle of an op? What a load of ********.

 

Also yes, game obviously favors ranged. Something melee can do , bet your *** ranged can do it better. To compensate, melee should have more survivability or dps but neihter of this is present.

 

And not only pve, in pvp it's the same. Ranged got same amount of survivabilty, dps and cc as melee. How Bioware messed balance up this bad is a mystery.

 

Ok first off, I want to compliment the OP for having a very informative post. Even if I did not agree with everything he said, he at least explained his position well and didn't just present some short whinefest with no examples of what he is talking about. Then there is this piece that I responded to, which fails to reach the same level and instead devolves into some jump on the bandwagon because I agree about some minutae the opening poster mentioned. It is NOT unusual to have encounters which do what you are saying. Except......the one boss you are talking about that doesn't require 2 tanks is the NONTANKABLE one.......so what is your point, lol.

Meh I haven't heard that about healing in fact I hear a lot of good come from commando healing, people like it. As for the combat rez, not every healer needs one =/

 

To use a combat medic for raid purposes the raid itself needs to be good at not taking AVOIDABLE damage. The autmotaic buffs CMeds can give a tank can be pretty sweet when specced correctly. But they are in no way and in no fasion designed or intended to be a utility or OH*()*)( healer.

 

AS to the OP Yea I'll agree alot of fights are very melee unfrindly to bigin with then toss in derth of aoe aggro management and nade nerfs yea it sucks. for certain fights

Edited January 20, 2012 by BMBender