As many others have said the enrage timers have a couple of purposes:

1. It ensures you follow comp; 1 tank, 1 healer, 2 dps. Otherwise you could just bring 1 tank and 3 healers and trivialize everything

2. It ensures that you are not undergeared for the fight. They do not want you going into hard modes in greens, they want you to have geared up first in Corella Commendations for dungeons or Tionese/Columi for Ops.

3. It requires your DPS to play at an appropriate level of skill. The healer certainly is with the damage going around in some of these fights so why should the DPS get to be bad but still kill the boss?

4. It prevents 2 manning or 3 manning (possibly with companions) for obvious reasons.

5. It makes sure you don't try anything convoluted like kiting the boss around the zone while taking potshots at him

I'm sure theres more but those are the quickest to come to mind. The enrage timers enforce the gear level, composition, and play level required to beat the content. Remember DPS is not just an epeen thing, you should be able to put out a certain amount with certain gear otherwise you should not be good enough to win a fight. Not saying that number has to be 100% of potential but it shouldn't be 50% either.

I hope you realize that soft enrage mechanics are pretty much the same concept as enrage timers. There just implemented differently. If you don't have enough dps, you won't beat the boss in any of the two cases. And guess what, people will complain about it, BECAUSE THEIR BOTH THE SAME THING.

 

Not to mention the only reason people complain about enrage timers, is because they can't pull off the dps required to beat the boss for various reasons they deny to admit. PERIOD.

Soft enrage mechanics are more flexible, slightly worse DPS can be handled with slightly better tanking and healing. The hard enrage is a crisp line at X seconds, the soft enrage is a blurry line at X+-Y seconds. Furthermore they are less disruptive to your immersion in the game. Why the hell should being in a fight for a certain amount of time suddenly make the enemy a gazzillion times stronger. Why the hell didn't this NPC just throw his full strength at me from the beginning?

Hard enrages are purely artificial constructs, soft enrages flow naturally out of the mechanics of the fight.

Let me give an example: First boss of Eternity Vault. Now I don't know if he actually has an enrage timer, as I've never hit one, but assuming he does, what is an alternative to having a hard enrage? Well the fight progresses through progressively more complex phases. The soft enrage would involve things moving faster and faster and faster. More and more and more missiles targets. Shorter and shorter and shorter times between ability uses. This flows much more smoothly out of the fight than: X seconds have passed, boss turns red and starts insta-gibbing everyone.

Soft enrage mechanics are more flexible, slightly worse DPS can be handled with slightly better tanking and healing, and furthermore they are less disruptive to your immersion in the game. Why the hell should being in a fight for a certain amount of time suddenly make the enemy a gazzillion times stronger. Why the hell didn't this NPC just throw his full strength at me from the beginning?

 

Hard enrages are purely artificial constructs, soft enrages flow naturally out of the mechanics of the fight.

Since when are MMO's realistic? Why did Malgus fight us in a bridge where we can just push him out of the ledge? Why does the Infernal One have pillars in his room that make him vulnerable when he is hit by them? Why does the pilot boss in The False Emperor flashpoint have turrets in the platform you fight him in that are used to shoot down his ship? Do i really need to keep going?

And soft enrage timers are NOT more flexible than a typical enrage timer. An enrage timer can also be handled with better tanking (positioning of the boss) and healing (positioning of the boss in conjuction to the healers and as well as the position of them relative to the damage dealers). Why? Because it IMPROVES dps as a whole. Your arguments are flawed, and still fail to realize their similarities.

Soft enrage timers are a hidden version of an enrage timer. People will complain about them because they will find out it is the SAME thing as an enrage timer. "WHY ARE YOU MAKING US KILL SHIELD BEFORE INTERRUPTING CAST IF WE CAN'T BURN IT DOWN ON TIME" - A random newbie. Very similar to "WHY DOES HE HAVE AN ENRAGE TIMER IF WE CANT BURN HIM DOWN ON TIME". Both can be solved the same way.

In regards to making a fight "flow". LOL, MMOs are not for you. Realistic does not belong in MMOs.

Since when are MMO's realistic? Why did Malgus fight us in a bridge where we can just push out of the ledge? Why does the Infernal One have pillars in his room that make him vulnerable when he is hit by them? Why does the pilot boss in The False Emperor flashpoint have turrets in the platform you fight him in that are used to shoot down his ship? Do i really need to keep going?

 

And soft enrage timers are NOT more flexible than a typical enrage timer. An enrage timer can also be handled with better tanking (positioning of the boss) and healing (positioning of the boss in conjuction to the healers and as well as the position of them relative to the damage dealers). Why? Because it IMPROVES dps as a whole. Your arguments are flawed, and still fail to realize their similarities.

 

Soft enrage timers are a hidden version of an enrage timer. People will complain about them because they will find out it is the SAME thing as an enrage timer. "WHY ARE YOU MAKING US KILL SHIELD BEFORE INTERRUPTING CAST IF WE CAN'T BURN IT DOWN ON TIME" - A random newbie. Very similar to "WHY DOES HE HAVE AN ENRAGE TIMER IF WE CANT BURN HIM DOWN ON TIME". Both can be solved the same way.

Aye we have definitely fought some of these bosses well into their enrages. Some are a bit more manageable than others but only a couple wipe you out instantly.

That being said, you really don't get much time beyond the timer though, and with a soft enrage it is even more amusing because some people won't even hit the "intended time" of the enrage just because they can't necessarily handle the ramp up.

Since when are MMO's realistic? Why did Malgus fight us in a bridge where we can just push him out of the ledge? Why does the Infernal One have pillars in his room that make him vulnerable when he is hit by them? Why does the pilot boss in The False Emperor flashpoint have turrets in the platform you fight him in that are used to shoot down his ship? Do i really need to keep going?

 

And soft enrage timers are NOT more flexible than a typical enrage timer. An enrage timer can also be handled with better tanking (positioning of the boss) and healing (positioning of the boss in conjuction to the healers and as well as the position of them relative to the damage dealers). Why? Because it IMPROVES dps as a whole. Your arguments are flawed, and still fail to realize their similarities.

 

Soft enrage timers are a hidden version of an enrage timer. People will complain about them because they will find out it is the SAME thing as an enrage timer. "WHY ARE YOU MAKING US KILL SHIELD BEFORE INTERRUPTING CAST IF WE CAN'T BURN IT DOWN ON TIME" - A random newbie. Very similar to "WHY DOES HE HAVE AN ENRAGE TIMER IF WE CANT BURN HIM DOWN ON TIME". Both can be solved the same way.

 

In regards to making a fight "flow". LOL, MMOs are not for you. Realistic does not belong in MMOs.

Questing is just grinding mobs. Lightsabers are really no different than vibroblades. Blah Blah Blah. Presentation matters son.

Soft enrages are not exactly the same thing as hard enrages, they just end up with the same result of forcing a GROUP to perform to a certain level, not just the DPS. Of course the tank and healer still have their responsibilities and can hold off the tide of the hard enrage a little, but they can be much more helpful against a soft enrage.

Whatever, like I said when I entered this thread, I don't personally mind hard enrages, I just think dealing with soft enrages can be a lot more fun. To each their own I guess.

So basically, if you are bad you should get rewarded?

No.

To all people who want enrage timer to be removed:

I don't think you see word 'HARD' in HARDmode. It is supposed to be challenging. As some people already said in this thread - for some encounters it's the way to check if dps is doing good or not. With my guild we were able to clear most HMs with mostly blue items and that's ok, because we played together in other MMOs for quite a long time. If a newbie can't win a fight with his blue gear - that's is also ok. He has loads of easy dailies to upgrade his gear before doing HARDmodes.

Do you really want to get same rewards for skilled players, who did put more effort to game and for ppl who just started to play a MMO? "If I can't get anything better than this 12 y/o kido who just dinged 50, why would I bother?"

To all people who want enrage timer to be removed:

I don't think you see word 'HARD' in HARDmode. It is supposed to be challenging. As some people already said in this thread - for some encounters it's the way to check if dps is doing good or not. With my guild we were able to clear most HMs with mostly blue items and that's ok, because we played together in other MMOs for quite a long time. If a newbie can't win a fight with his blue gear - that's is also ok. He has loads of easy dailies to upgrade his gear before doing HARDmodes.

 

Do you really want to get same rewards for skilled players, who did put more effort to game and for ppl who just started to play a MMO? "If I can't get anything better than this 12 y/o kido who just dinged 50, why would I bother?"

So basically, if you are bad you should get rewarded?

 

No.

Thank you and thank you.

There are others that understand the meaning of Hard Mode also but I'm not going to quote everyone. It is hard for a reason. They probably do need to make some adjustments but that's where patience comes in. This game is still brand new and it's going to take time to gather data and make an appropriate fix.

Look at what happened with the last expansion of WoW. It was actually Hard Mode for about a month after the initial release. Then, they patched it and it became "Hard Mode" again just like WotLK.

I don't see the big deal. Enrage is a fairly common mechanic these days. In general, the only people that don't like it are casuals. I don't have a problem with casual players but if you aren't putting in the time and effort that hardcore players are, then why would you expect to accomplish the same things and get the nice gear that they are?

 

Having a specific group make up is pretty much a requirement for these types of encounters. That's typical of any serious MMO you are going to play.

 

edit: I do however see the point of needing some way to keep track of the dps. If you can't track it then it makes it annoyingly difficult to stay on target.

Well said. I would say that the entire point of hardmode is to give those who want a challenge more to do. If hard mode is to hard, dont do it! Casual players and those who do not strive to play exceptionally have plenty of single player content to do. Group content is for those who want a challenge- nerfing group content just makes the dungeons boring. Enrage timers just make the DPS have to do well, instead of cruising along without a care to their performance.

It's not like these fights are hard. If you are hitting enrage that pretty much means, well, you suck. Fix it and then you don't have to worry about enrages. Am I right? Pretty confident I am.

We have cleared EV twice on normal so far - both times with 2-3 PUG DPS because not everyone is level 50 in guild yet.

We went in to do hard mode last night with 2 PUG DPS. Was able to kill first and second boss and then got bugged pylons, we are going back tonight.

We have had different players for our PUG's every time, it's not like we keep bringing the same people so they know the fight. Pretty sure last night the sniper we had sucked balls and we were still able to win.

As far as hm flashpoints We have never had a problem with enrage mechanics except when we 3 manned BT with a DPS companion the day 3 of us hit 50. And even then we were able to work around that and successfully clear the dungeon (bonus boss included) with tank, healer, dps and a companion dpsing (lol - in like level 30 gear no less)

Enrage timers are for one thing. To make the fight a challenge, if you just want loot fed to you on a silver spoon, go back and grind faction in wow or something.

tl;dr version - you suck, get better or give up, either way.

Enrage timers are stupid, they're just slightly less stupid than all the current alternatives.

They solve a few problems and create a couple others, but "Discouraging people from playing their class however they please" isn't really one of them. Having a tank in DPS gear isn't really an option with a tight enrage timer, and having a healer DPS also isn't. It sucks if that's all your guild has available, but that's the way it is, otherwise what do the guys who rolled/chose DPS do?

Now, the converse to that is, the enrage timers we have in TOR kinda REALLY suck. They make us think that maybe Bio's idea of our progression and our own idea don't mesh. Are we supposed to be going from normals -> Ops -> Hards -> Nightmares? That's what it looks like from doing some of the hards in quality normal FP/crafted gear. It's hard to tell though, everything is still a bit buggy and it is still very early yet.

TLDR: Enrage timers are necessary and can be pretty fun. Soft enrage timers that are presented well more so, but either way. The problem is the enrage timers we have currently in TOR are a little too tight and a little too inelegant to be fun. They're doable if you're dedicated and pretty good in gear that logically seems like it should be sufficient, and they become more doable as you get better and better gear, but that first step is a doozy.

I like how some people equate enrage timers with being hard mode... Like it's really hard to stack a bunch of snipers in your raid and beat the timer....

To many of you either didn't understand what I posted or chose to ignore what I posted and instead took the time to brag about how awesome you are at the game.

Read my post, my point was being that they are pigeon holing group dynamics based on how fast you can dps.... why do people care if a tank and 3 healers take 2 hours to kill a boss when it only takes them 20 mins to do it with proper dps? if they want to spend the extra time doing it so be it... how does that ruin the fun for you?

I rather see the boss use random dynamic tactics that groups have to adjust for then static ones with a rage timer tacked on...

But if thats the way people want it I guess our guild will only recruit snipers for end game content so we can brag about how ubber we are also...

Enrage is a very sensitive mechanic. I think it should definitely be used in certain fights, just not every-single-boss-in-the-game.

I like enrages, it keeps the group on edge but I prefer a long well though out fight over a DPS race any day. It's mindless to just mash buttons to beat an enrage timer. I want to see the raid really think about what they're doing and make them suffer if they make the wrong move.

It's not like these fights are hard. If you are hitting enrage that pretty much means, well, you suck. Fix it and then you don't have to worry about enrages. Am I right? Pretty confident I am.

 

We have cleared EV twice on normal so far - both times with 2-3 PUG DPS because not everyone is level 50 in guild yet.

 

We went in to do hard mode last night with 2 PUG DPS. Was able to kill first and second boss and then got bugged pylons, we are going back tonight.

 

We have had different players for our PUG's every time, it's not like we keep bringing the same people so they know the fight. Pretty sure last night the sniper we had sucked balls and we were still able to win.

 

As far as hm flashpoints We have never had a problem with enrage mechanics except when we 3 manned BT with a DPS companion the day 3 of us hit 50. And even then we were able to work around that and successfully clear the dungeon (bonus boss included) with tank, healer, dps and a companion dpsing (lol - in like level 30 gear no less)

 

Enrage timers are for one thing. To make the fight a challenge, if you just want loot fed to you on a silver spoon, go back and grind faction in wow or something.

 

tl;dr version - you suck, get better or give up, either way.

+1 for this. Makes a lot of sense.

It seems like everyone defending hard enrages seem to think the alternative to having them on every boss is to remove them entirely and then setting up stands handing out loot, with cakes and twi'lek dancers, etc, etc, etc.

Having enrages on the first and/or second bosses of an area is fine. It acts as a gear check and keeps your precious boss kills as exclusive as you want them to be. But having different mechanics that allow for different tactics on other bosses is NOT A BAD THING. So what if the final boss of a flashpoint can be defeated by kiting, or stalling, or what have you? If people have gotten past the gear checks, they've proven they're not "bad" (because god forbid someone UNSKILLED should sully a boss with their filthy casual hands), so let them have some FUN with the game.

It seems like everyone defending hard enrages seem to think the alternative to having them on every boss is to remove them entirely and then setting up stands handing out loot, with cakes and twi'lek dancers, etc, etc, etc.

 

Having enrages on the first and/or second bosses of an area is fine. It acts as a gear check and keeps your precious boss kills as exclusive as you want them to be. But having different mechanics that allow for different tactics on other bosses is NOT A BAD THING. So what if the final boss of a flashpoint can be defeated by kiting, or stalling, or what have you? If people have gotten past the gear checks, they've proven they're not "bad" (because god forbid someone UNSKILLED should sully a boss with their filthy casual hands), so let them have some FUN with the game.

What's the difference?

Name one boss with soft or hard enrages that makes a difference in the way you play your character?

Adds spawn - not enough DPS you wipe - Hard enrage - not enough dps you wipe.

Boss has a stacking debuff - not enough dps tank dies - you wipe - hard enrage - not enough dps you wipe.

Name one encounter from pretty much any raiding MMO out there that doesn't have some sort of enrage that is a DPS check.

What's the difference?

 

Name one boss with soft or hard enrages that makes a difference in the way you play your character?

 

Adds spawn - not enough DPS you wipe - Hard enrage - not enough dps you wipe.

 

Boss has a stacking debuff - not enough dps tank dies - you wipe - hard enrage - not enough dps you wipe.

 

Name one encounter from pretty much any raiding MMO out there that doesn't have some sort of enrage that is a DPS check.

Here is the difference:

Adds spawn: not enough DPS, healer works harder to keep everyone up and/or someone kites adds around while boss is burned down.

Boss has stacking debuff: not enough DPS, tank and an offtank try swaping off aggro so keep stacks low on both.

See how soft enrages open up possibilities.

Here is the difference:

 

Adds spawn: not enough DPS, healer works harder to keep everyone up and/or someone kites adds around while boss is burned down.

 

Boss has stacking debuff: not enough DPS, tank and an offtank try swaping off aggro so keep stacks low on both.

 

See how soft enrages open up possibilities.

The fundamental issue is how alternatives to enrage dont just shift the responsibilities further onto the healers and tanks. In both cases in your case in no small part you shifted the 'difficulty' (for want of a better word) onto the other roles in the group. By no means could this not be a case 100% of the time, but the argument here is about drawing a concrete line below dps responsibility.

Arguably tanks and healers have the greater responsibility with the cases made on both sides that a good tank and healer can carry dps in some cases but vice versa is a less common occurance. Strict enrage timers, while unimaginative, do not immediately increase the burden on the tanking or healing side instead offering a bar for the dps to perform to. An enrage hit wiping the group quickly does not stick a massive burden on the tanking and healing side, but underlines the dps responsibility. A more replacement 'solution' shoudl bear this in mind.

If there are alternatives it needs to be very heavily weighted towards putting the onus back on the dps. Strict enrage timers may be simplistic but the fault in most cases can very clearly be placed on dps underperformance the same way as when a tank allows stray adds to beat on the healer or the healer fails to keep people alive the responsibility can often be traced back to these roles. Proposing 'solutions' that do not fundentally deal with the dps responsibility angle, instead just shifting more of it onto the tank and healer as a matter of course, is not really a solution.

The fundamental issue is how alternatives to enrage dont just shift the responsibilities further onto the healers and tanks. In both cases in your case in no small part you shifted the 'difficulty' (for want of a better word) onto the other roles in the group. By no means could this not be a case 100% of the time, but the argument here is about drawing a concrete line below dps responsibility.

 

Arguably tanks and healers have the greater responsibility with the cases made on both sides that a good tank and healer can carry dps in some cases but vice versa is a less common occurance. Strict enrage timers, while unimaginative, do not immediately increase the burden on the tanking or healing side instead offering a bar for the dps to perform to. An enrage hit wiping the group quickly does not stick a massive burden on the tanking and healing side, but underlines the dps responsibility. A more replacement 'solution' shoudl bear this in mind.

 

If there are alternatives it needs to be very heavily weighted towards putting the onus back on the dps. Strict enrage timers may be simplistic but the fault in most cases can very clearly be placed on dps underperformance the same way as when a tank allows stray adds to beat on the healer or the healer fails to keep people alive. Proposing 'solutions' that do not fundentally deal with the dps responsibility angle, instead just shifting more of it onto the tank and healer as a matter of course, is not really a solution.

I understand what you are saying. I play a healer myself, and I PREFER the DPS to be good, so that my job is easier. However the point is that optimal DPS makes the soft enrages easy to deal with, but suboptimal DPS doesn't make the fight absolutely impossible (say you are missing a DPS and had to take an extra tank or healer)

eta: I think that is the key of my argument. I don't want to group with crappy DPSers, but tight hard enrages mean a suboptimal group setups are screwed.

I understand what you are saying. I play a healer myself, and I PREFER the DPS to be good, so that my job is easier. However the point is that optimal DPS makes the soft enrages easy to deal with, but suboptimal DPS doesn't make the fight absolutely impossible (say you are missing a DPS and had to take an extra tank or healer)

Agreed, as I said things like soft enrages have their place and I woudl definitely prefer something more than things enraging two minutes in. But realistically that doesnt underline dps responsibility. A solution that just increases the burden on the other roles but still doesnt underline dps responsibility is not appropriate as a replacement of a hard enrage mechanic across content.

"I don't want enrage timer so I can do bad dps and still get loot."

That's all I see in this thread.

"I don't want enrage timer so I can do bad dps and still get loot."

That's all I see in this thread.

That is because you didn't read the thread.

Dear God this is awful. Hardmode FPs are literally the same fight, except for the 200% enrage at 25%. I have never seen this hardmode model and it is absolutely terrible.

There isn't a 200% enrage at 25% it is time based, you are taking to long, that is what the thread is about.