I think they are including the "second shock" in that calculation.

Yeah I got that but if I don't recall wrong, second shock hits for the half of the main shock, so it's 5-6k for the critted main one.

Wow, I'd really given myself into madness.

Not actually reading my post, crap

 

Madness damage exceeds deception.. not comparing burst damage

compares sustained dps spec to burst dps spec

doesnt compare burst dps at all

gets full tier gear

doesn't itemize it worth ****

get out.

voltaic slash has nothing to do with it since any competent team will recognize surging charge anyways.

 

your heavy reliance on getting two VS off in quick succession is easy to take advantage of and the fact that it is a weapon damage attack screws you over against a ton of defensive cds that death field can bypass. also full deception is much more force starved

Only if you're implying our main source of damage is VS, which it isn't. The procs still happen even if it misses. The only thing we *may* miss out on is a possible x2 Static Charges. Of course the burst spec is force starved, it isn't meant to sustain dps with. If you actually use blackout, though, you can sustain a heavy rotation for long enough to kill 2-3 people.

It gives away the fact that you are deception in rated warzones, that is enough for most teams to call focus fire on mumble/vent/ts...hence you will be kos and shut down. If you use thrash instead, it is not as apparent but still against good teams they will notice. If you are running 0/27/14, the thrash just reduce the cost of shock, which means you could just pop it without 2x thrash if you have the force. Deathfield at 30 range is much better for stopping caps and dmg anyways.

 

When I see voltaic slash x2 from a sin, i force shroud right away and 3/4 of the time I see a few resist messages pop up. Works like a charm. Or just chain cc on you to prevent your burst or delay it as long as possible, reducing your effectiveness. Assassins, if not in tank spec, works best if you are not being noticed, VS is a dead giveaway unfortunately due to how flashy and rare the animation is. He prob meant shut down as in the sense that your effectiveness is severely compromised.

Seems like you fight some really bad ception sins. And i don't die that easly.

Seems like you fight some really bad ception sins. And i don't die that easly.

I'm pretty sure I've seen and heard it all, but if you want to explain why and how you're apparently gods gift to deception sins go right ahead. I'm listening.

I don't think I've ever seen so much nonsense in a single thread before, good lord.

First, deception has way more survivability than madness. The aoe reduction with cloak cooldown reduction alone is worth that entire tree in the lolsmash metagame we play in currently. On top of that, dark embrace giving 25% flat damage reduction to everything and easily maintained indefinitely in all but the most drawn out battles is a huge boon to any class. Smashers cry all the time.

Second, I have never once had a force issue with full deception, not since the game was released and still not today. And I played deception exclusively for a very long time. In fact, darkness with thrash is by far the most force starved (go thrashless people), and dark embrace will end up providing vastly more amounts of force than deathmarks. Madness generates the least force out of the 3 specs, which is definitely not made up for with the thrash/shock reduction talent since deception reduces shock cost by half. These people claiming wakajinn defeats force starvation are losing their minds; there was no starvation issue to begin with.

Third, madness has way more dps than deception. And if you think it's due to tab dotting, you're mistaken. Tab dotting is a good way to get big numbers with minimal effort, but the end result is nearly exactly the same dps as if you had tunelled one healer who never died for the entire game. The only difference is that it's easier to keep your targets from dying if you tab dot, and they almost certainly die if you use your rotation on one target, thus causing your dot damage to be wasted. That's not something you should consider as a fault.

Fourth, deception having more burst than madness is a lie. It's more front-loaded in deception and more back-loaded in madness, please don't confuse these two points as being the same.

Fifth, using shroud to "shut down" deception is ridiculous. Anyone who assumes enough competence to see 2x VS and pop shroud should expect the same competence from the attacker: see big glowie guy, use low slash, wait 4s.

Lastly, the wakajinn spec does less dps than full deception and I hate it. I can't remember the last time I wasn't able to stop a cap I needed to stop because I lacked DF, and gimping your damage output for an ability you haven't fully buffed via the madness tree when you don't really need it is short sighted. (Not really an argument at all, wakajinn is ok it's just a pet peeve of mine =P).

Setting those issues aside, you may all continue.

Madness? Who the hell even plays that?

Darkness.

Oh, and you do know only Blackout-Dark Embrace actually reduces damage, and not regulary Dark Embrace?

Madness? Who the hell even plays that?

 

Darkness.

 

Oh, and you do know only Blackout-Dark Embrace actually reduces damage, and not regulary Dark Embrace?

I play madness and hybrids of it. Its a fun to play.

It's far inferior to darkness and deception. No doubt about it.

Which is why I only play it for regs. I am forced into darkness for ranked and after months of playing any darkness spec I am almost numb to playing it.

Darkness= Best control/defense with good damage.

Deception=Best burst

Madness=Best sustained damage

Each tree is viable and I do play all specs and hybrids and each build brings something to the table. I like madness so much because it is not the easiest spec to play and hands down one of the squishiest in the game.

Very few people play Madness well, but it really isn't that bad when played properly. However putting 31 points into any tree for PVP is just inferior to any hybrid build honestly, especially Deception.

Eh no. You need Voltaic Slash.

And madness is just plain bad. Who the hell wants sustained damage for pvp? You want to kill, not to make them laugh to death.

Eh no. You need Voltaic Slash.

 

And madness is just plain bad. Who the hell wants sustained damage for pvp? You want to kill, not to make them laugh to death.

I have no issue killing people with madness. It takes a few extra global cooldowns and can still 1v1 a lot of classes (still defend with it).

I have no issue killing people with madness. It takes a few extra global cooldowns and can still 1v1 a lot of classes (still defend with it).

Untill someone with a clue comes by, yeah.

Untill someone with a clue comes by, yeah.

Why are you such a debbie downer when it comes to madness.

Well in fairness I'd never guard a node in madness since deception sins can kill you before the third stun (electrocute) wears off. I've done it to a top pvp madness player in a rated and he now does darkness

But I love madness in regs because of the hope of someday topping 1mil damage.

Why are you such a debbie downer when it comes to madness.

Because it is a horrible tree to get any more than17 points in.

Because it is a horrible tree to get any more than17 points in.

Well to each their own.

Because it is a horrible tree to get any more than17 points in.

No it's not.. it's just squishy. Madness does sick dps and has good burst (back-loaded) but it's just squishy. But then that just motivates you to play smartly and not die.

No it's not.. it's just squishy. Madness does sick dps and has good burst (back-loaded) but it's just squishy. But then that just motivates you to play smartly and not die.

Its a lost cause. Its not wonder so few people play the spec.

No it's not.. it's just squishy. Madness does sick dps and has good burst (back-loaded) but it's just squishy. But then that just motivates you to play smartly and not die.

Does good damage how? All you do is pad meters, you don't actually kill anything without burst.

Does good damage how? All you do is pad meters, you don't actually kill anything without burst.

Just how much experience do you have with madness? I honestly used to think it sucked after only trying it here and there but it is now my go to spec for regs. Loads of potential and unless you never play it or are just bad at it you wont get what the spec has to offer.

Madness? Who the hell even plays that?

 

Darkness.

 

Oh, and you do know only Blackout-Dark Embrace actually reduces damage, and not regulary Dark Embrace?

From Torhead: http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#200.2

"Exiting stealth mode now finishes the cooldown of Blackout, and Blackout can now be used out of stealth mode, granting 6 seconds of Dark Embrace and restoring 10 Force. While Dark Embrace is active, all damage taken is reduced by 25%. In addition, Force Cloak now longer reduces healing done and received."

Sounds to me like all dark embrace applies the DR. I checked, neither stealth nor 6 seconds out of stealth nor blackout dark embrace has the DR show up on the character sheet.

No it's not.. it's just squishy. Madness does sick dps and has good burst (back-loaded) but it's just squishy. But then that just motivates you to play smartly and not die.

I don't define back-loaded dps as "burst"...since it requires you to stay alive that much longer and gives them that much more survival time to recover and for someone to top them off. Merc dps has super good burst but it is also back loaded ....and the precise reason it sucks is because it is so backloaded so the other side can deal with it more readily.

There is just no way we can all agree on everything so can we just all agree that madness is not the best recommended spec to run for rateds. And that the deception tree doesn't suck lol.

In other news, a full sin tank in tanking gear is painful to kill with a deception spec , especially if they keep parrying low slash: discuss

I don't define back-loaded dps as "burst"...since it requires you to stay alive that much longer and gives them that much more survival time to recover and for someone to top them off. Merc dps has super good burst but it is also back loaded ....and the precise reason it sucks is because it is so backloaded so the other side can deal with it more readily.

 

There is just no way we can all agree on everything so can we just all agree that madness is not the best recommended spec to run for rateds. And that the deception tree doesn't suck lol.

 

In other news, a full sin tank in tanking gear is painful to kill with a deception spec , especially if they keep parrying low slash: discuss

I killed 2 sintanks in a 2v1 just now, and no I didn't have low slash parried they died fast. very fast. and they both backpeddal + force speeded to try and escape me...

Eh no. You need Voltaic Slash.

 

And madness is just plain bad. Who the hell wants sustained damage for pvp? You want to kill, not to make them laugh to death.

Not one single Deception player needs VS, picking it up is just a waste.

By picking up death field instead you gain an extra big hitting area attack with a 30m range and with the extra point you get 25% extra crit bonus damage to thrash. Not to mention you are much less predictable, and having death field helps a lot to interupt caps and being able to kite. By getting VS you get...30% shock increase

I have played this spec since launch and I don't even know how you can defend VS besides liking the animation. You have either not tried the hybrid or you are just being stubborn and purist.