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Arsenal Mercs also do a fantastic job is drawing fire away from healers..

 

Well, that was nearly a coffee-over-keyboard moment. That's one terrifically optimistic way of saying that Mercs get focused a lot.

 

I have yet to see ONE top rated WZ team that takes a DPS merc/commando along on its A-Team.

Edited by Jherad
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Ok. Ignoring 1vs1; what does a merc offer to a team? What's their specialty?

 

I can't think of anything I can't do better with another AC.

 

Good answer. Notice that the person you were responding to DOES NOT play a commando or merc, and also plays on a PVE server.

 

If they're not going to fix it, I think it's only fair that new Trooper / Bounty Hunter players get a tooltip when they first visit their AC trainer in the fleet that advises them that one of the AC's they can select is for PvE only except for advanced players who want to PvP in "hard mode" all the time for the sake of the challenge. Getting consistently facerolled by every other AC in the game while questing and attempting to participate in WZs can't be fun for new players. Everything's already been said about this. I do enjoy the commando AC, and after the Jedi Knight it has the most Star Wars "charisma" of all the ACs IMO. So there's a missed opportunity here.

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1) That is just a list of the classes I have at 50. My merc is somewhere in the mid levels.

 

2) It's a Roleplay server and there is no difference whatsoever between PvP and PvE servers in this game. You are acting as though there is no option whatsoever to queue for warzones and that Roleplayers can't possibly be into or good at PvP.

 

3) I never said Merc is the best choice for a Ranked Team. They just aren't as horrible as the OP is making them out to be.

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Ok. Ignoring 1vs1; what does a merc offer to a team? What's their specialty?

 

I can't think of anything I can't do better with another AC.

Sustained ranged AoE that have DoTs. How do you think well played mercs top DPS numbers if they suck at 1v1?

And it's stupidly easy to do if your not dumb enough to charge into the thick of battle with the marauders.

People that suck at mercs are the ones rushing in closer than 10m and spamming the tracer missile like they did before 1.2. Yes you will die if you try to Rambo like that. You're also a retard for playing PvP as a dueling sport and not a team game.

A Mercs job is ranged fire support, you can easily out DPS anybody but you have to spread the love more than a 1on1 dps. Set everybody on fire, make sure that the enemy is always in your AoE, and if somebody wants to duel you knock them back, hold them off until help arrives. You'll still die but everybody does. The difference is that people will continue to burn while you respawn, and the assistance that gives your team will make a difference.

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Well, that was nearly a coffee-over-keyboard moment. That's one terrifically optimistic way of saying that Mercs get focused a lot.

 

I have yet to see ONE top rated WZ team that takes a DPS merc/commando along on its A-Team.

 

How aware are you of every ranked team out there, and their roster?

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At the start of this game i rolled a jugg cause i usually love playing mmo-warrior classes. but couldnt decide so i wanted to start a bounty hunter as an alt for PVE, since they looked awesome. It became powertech because i know i love the melee/tank classes in these games. Then i started a jedi shadow when the servers died before transfers.

 

Concerning mercs/commandos, ive seen a few good ones, but they all rerolled when ilum stopped being a must for gear progression (1.2?)

 

Basically theyre free kills. Fly in the ointment. I feel really sorry for people loving this class, even those that are healing with it.

 

I hope bioware can buff them again, and not take 6 months doing it.

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Basically theyre free kills. Fly in the ointment. I feel really sorry for people loving this class, even those that are healing with it.

 

This. I don't understand the people trying to act like Mercs/Commandos are in a good spot. Sorry, you're not that good, stop letting your meaningless forum ego get in the way of fixes to your class. Mercs/Commandos are free kills on every other class I play, it's silly. I haven't had a problem with one in months.

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Sustained ranged AoE that have DoTs. How do you think well played mercs top DPS numbers if they suck at 1v1?

 

Any, and I mean ANY class is viable when left to their own devices. PvP in this game have never been about AoE or DoT, it's about burst damage: killing **** as fast as possible. That said, yes, I agree. Mercs excel at AoE damage and sustained fire from range. That's their role in a PvE group, and the same for PvP. However...

 

Mercs are support class, no doubt about it. They require at least one babysitter, be it heals or peels, in order to be effective. PUGging with a Merc is about the most frustrating experience I've ever had in this game. Running with guildies who can at least coordinate with you is one thing, but Merc still doesn't offer much that can't be done better with a different class.

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1) 3) I never said Merc is the best choice for a Ranked Team. They just aren't as horrible as the OP is making them out to be.

 

They're certainly not horrible in standards, I completely agree, and I've said this time and time again.

 

But only because in standards, there are SO many bad players.

 

I'd argue that given equal skill and equal gear, you are better off with ANY other DPS in a ranked warzone over a Merc/Commando.

 

Any.

 

EDIT:

How aware are you of every ranked team out there, and their roster?

VERY aware of the ones on my server, and have a passing acquaintance with some other servers'. Why, do you know of any top rated teams running DPS mercs in their A-Team? Please let me know who and where - I'd be incredibly surprised.

Edited by Jherad
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Seriously - I would love to see cross-server rateds open up for all these hot-shot mercs to get humbled. Every good team on our server focuses merc's down the minute they spawn, they actually come off the healers and POW, the merc is down in 2-3 seconds with a few well timed smashes/force sweeps.

 

The good teams do that because no amount of heals/shields can save a merc when there's two melee on him. Not even for 5 seconds (when they get to dual smash again for 10-14k).

 

So regretting putting soooo much time into this toon just to hang him up due to sheer frustration. Sure with full War Hero I can put up great damage in pug's, but I want to do rateds and can't because I'm a liability with my merc. It sucks.

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I don't know what annoys me more. The ignorant *******es spouting some sort of "team support" argument while not playing the class at all, or the stubborn idiots who perform well and then say the class is fine. It's not fine. I have no idea why you think you should pretend it's fine except to either guarantee the class continues to be free kills or so you can keep your distinction as doing well with the class in unranked warzones because that somehow shows you're good at a video game. If you love the class as much as you say you do why wouldn't you want it to be better?

 

 

I get it. You want to rub in how awesome you are, and how awful I must be if I can't get such a clearly superior class to perform well in PVP. Post a video or **** because everything you say is just words, and it's frustrating beyond belief to see you sit there so idiotically ignorant of the point. I never hear anyone say what it is they think they actually DO to get good numbers out of the class. Stay at range? Freaking genius. Why didn't I think of that? Oh wait I did. The Maras, Juggs, and stealthers had a problem with that though so they just closed distance in a way I couldn't prevent and then got to me. Drop DoTs on everyone in Assault spec? What a great way to pad my damage numbers! Too bad that damage is almost entirely fluff damage. Useful only when the other team doesn't have a healer who can just erase it all in an instant.

 

Lets talk about the fire support "good at 4v4" comment I keep seeing because that one is a real head scratcher.

Do you honestly think you're contributing to victory? I finished up my weekly tonight, got some pretty decent numbers. Top 3 in damage for all the warzones played tonight in gear that at best could be considered mediocre.

 

My analysis is that we can at best provide a small tipping point to what is otherwise a stalemate. Rolling up on a fight where your team is getting the worst of it? Unless you arrived with more reinforcements besides yourself you aren't saving the node. They'll finish off the people they were beating and then it's you left against them, and while other classes have the tools to prolong the engagement for a little longer (which is that much longer the people can't go and reinforce the node your team has shifted the attack to, or that much longer for your teammates to come back in with fresh health/energy bars) as a commando you can only sit there and die quickly. Granted no one stands up well to focus fire, but commando stands up the worst of absolutely any of the classes (cept sage maybe, but these days I'm not so sure). Rolling up on a fight where your team is winning? You'll help them finish a little quicker and do good damage, but they were going to win there anyway. The worst is when you come up on a node that called for help, help them finish clearing it off because it turns out they could handle it anyway, and then the people who were bored on guard duty decide you make an excellent replacement and now you're there to sit there and die quickly if someone from the other team decides to come back. Either way, you aren't being a difference maker unless you roll up on a stalemate but ANY class will tip the scales in that situation. I daresay that a fresh-50-in-full-recruit-gear-commando can tip the balance in that situation, unless they get reinforcements of their own.

 

As has been said, ANY class can perform well when left to free cast, and ANY ranged class can try and find nooks where they can increase the chance that they'll go unnoticed for awhile. But when sages are discovered they can run because that class was given kiting tools. When Gunslingers are discovered they can knockback, root, or just pop their immunity to everything but diversion shield so that you can't actually stop them from getting their damage out. Commandos can't run, we can't hide, and we damn sure don't have the survivability to sit there and take it, and THAT is the problem. We can take some focus off healers but only if those healers force feed us heals because Heavy Armor without a tank spec just doesn't stand up to much in this game, and the defensive cooldowns for troopers are absolutely abysmal.

 

On sustained vs burst: Yes gunnery's sustained damage is pretty good and steady, but a lack of really solid burst really slows it down in PVP. In a world where TTK in general was higher, this wouldn't matter, and the decent pressure Gunnery can put out would indeed be a tide turner. In a world where it's burst or be bursted it can definitely be frustrating, though here I will say that at least when pressuring healers, our interrupt now helps a ton in keeping them from just healing themselves up completely back to full.

 

Meanwhile Assault has decent (but not really great) burst, but it's sustained is absolutely horrible, so to whoever was talking about snipers being SOL if their burst doesn't kill the opponent, that's how every single day is for an Assault Commando. Your burst, if you get your IA proc, will definitely leave them hurting, but it won't leave them dead and that's going to be a problem.

 

The class is great for training you to use your environment because you don't have other tools to worry about, which also means you don't have any other tools BUT the environment to try and use. Once you gain those skills though and shift to a class that DOES have those other tools, you'll find your overall contributions go up. To the dude who says his commando contributes as much as his sent: On what basis do you consider yourself a top 10% sent? Honest question. If it's that you do top 10% damage then dude you are missing out on some of the great things sent has to offer. Awe, much like Flash Grenade, is more team utility packed into that one 60s cooldown ability than lies in all of Commando's arsenal, especially after the stock strike knockback nerf. This doesn't even take into account Inspiration or Transcendence. Transcendence is just an absolutely amazing ability in top tier PVP. PVP is more than just damage.

 

And that's really the problem. The question I posed awhile ago in another thread is: "Why should you bring a DPS Commando to a ranked warzone". I felt like every class should be able to provide things you can bring. I feel I can make valid arguments for pretty much every AC in the game, in any role that that AC is capable of with the glaring exception of DPS commando. Damage is all well and good, but literally every AC can bring damage, and many of them don't require being completely unnoticed to do it well. If we were just talking damage then yeah let commando roll up on the zerg (or if the beginning hang back and let the zerg develop for a few seconds), find a nice comfy spot where you can obstacle hump if necessary and things can go pretty well for you on the scoreboard from a damage perspective. But, again, you can do that on Sage or Gunslinger too, and actually they can find better spots since many of their skills have a better range, and if they are noticed they have a better chance of making themselves too annoying to be worth the effort of killing. Can commando well and truly tip the scales in a way that wouldn't be able to be done with any sort of warm body though? That I don't know, but my feeling is not.

 

As for why I still play the class: To be honest my commando is almost exclusively PVE these days. It's an environment where the class shines, and I mostly use my shadow for PVP. But every now and then I go back to PVP on commando. Playing a few melee classes certainly granted some insight on how best to counter them, or at least annoy them. I like the look of the class. I love the big cannon, and I love the armor, and I'd love to not PVP in a dress. Commando is my first love, and I don't want my alt to become my defacto main. But anytime someone starts talking ranked, I'm going to be asked to switch to shadow because that class can be a difference maker. I guess I just don't understand why those of you who claim to love the class don't seem to want to see it made better.

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The good teams do that because no amount of heals/shields can save a merc when there's two melee on him. Not even for 5 seconds (when they get to dual smash again for 10-14k).

 

Ignoring the rest of the thread, this made me smirk. Can anyone survive this kind of focus or is it only Merc/Commando that is allergic to focus fire?

 

Invalid argument :p

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Ignoring the rest of the thread, this made me smirk. Can anyone survive this kind of focus or is it only Merc/Commando that is allergic to focus fire?

 

Invalid argument :p

 

Well Knights/Warriors and Agents/Smugglers have AoE mez; Knights/Warriors can also leap away to another target; in the case of Guardians/Juggernauts they can leap to a friendly target which is also a self-heal. Consulars/Inquisitors have Force Speed to get away; Shadows/Assassins and Operatives/Scoundrels can go into stealth.

 

Commandos/Mercs have no such escape abilities, only knockback, single target root and single target stun. So they die a lot faster in a 2 v 1 situation than most classes.

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Joke post?

 

Dead serious, anyone under focus fire without support will die instantly. Not a problem with Mercs specifically, but TTK in general. Escape mechanisms barely come into play, most likely you're chain stunned and/or defensives are on CD. Happens to me all the time and I'm wearing medium armor, so I die even faster than a merc! Lets not get too specific about circumstances, if this and that etc etc, in general this is what happens when good teams have excellent focus coordination.

 

Thus, invalid argument.

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Dead serious, anyone under focus fire without support will die instantly. Not a problem with Mercs specifically, but TTK in general. Escape mechanisms barely come into play, most likely you're chain stunned and/or defensives are on CD. Happens to me all the time and I'm wearing medium armor, so I die even faster than a merc! Lets not get too specific about circumstances, if this and that etc etc, in general this is what happens when good teams have excellent focus coordination.

 

Thus, invalid argument.

 

Thing is, we only have jet boost as our only way to avoid some damage, while other classes have a lot more ressources on that aspect, I'm fairly sure that my operative or juggernaut would have a better chance standing an assault on them than my merc, I could list the skills but I'm too tired of arguing.

Between the newbies that do random WZs and think they're experts and seeing Bioware having absolutely no clue (ooooh we're looking charts & graphs to fix pivipi !!!), no wonder people are leaving this game, being either subscirber or developer.

Edited by yoomazir
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Sustained ranged AoE that have DoTs. How do you think well played mercs top DPS numbers if they suck at 1v1?

And it's stupidly easy to do if your not dumb enough to charge into the thick of battle with the marauders.

People that suck at mercs are the ones rushing in closer than 10m and spamming the tracer missile like they did before 1.2. Yes you will die if you try to Rambo like that. You're also a retard for playing PvP as a dueling sport and not a team game.

A Mercs job is ranged fire support, you can easily out DPS anybody but you have to spread the love more than a 1on1 dps. Set everybody on fire, make sure that the enemy is always in your AoE, and if somebody wants to duel you knock them back, hold them off until help arrives. You'll still die but everybody does. The difference is that people will continue to burn while you respawn, and the assistance that gives your team will make a difference.

 

So, you are saying to go pyrotech; which by all means is still way better as a powertech regardless of the nerf due to it being able to proc the railshot much easier by not relying on powershot to do so; giving more DPS in the long run and making it more heat efficient? Then also say to spread the damage around to fluff the numbers? And if someone engages me, run away?

 

Got it. Now who wants me on their ranked team doing that? Don't mind me running away from the node to avoid that one one one, right? I may not kill anyone in reality but I will spread that damage around so make sure you notice my numbers in the end and ignore what I did during the match. If I'm lucky, maybe the other team will cluster together for me and not run when they see that big red circle. That will make my numbers look awesome. I mean; I will eventually have more heat issues than a powertech, but why would you want one of those when I can do it at range, until I get leaped at or pulled. yay range!

 

Seriously; if my advantage is ranged DOT's Lethality sniper is much better. AOE from range? Engineer. (And FFS, that does not mean nerf sniper. That is my main. lol It means I clearly can see the ineptitude of the merc class)

Edited by Technohic
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Between the newbies that do random WZs and think they're experts and seeing Bioware having absolutely no clue (ooooh we're looking charts & graphs to fix pivipi !!!), no wonder people are leaving this game, being either subscirber or developer.

 

 

 

Absolutely, the PvP issues in this game is not restricted to one class in particular. Stacking certain classes is way too advantageous (lolsmashers, PTs are popular complaints) compared to having a "balanced" team. :rolleyes:

Edited by Svii
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No they don't.

 

We kinda do. One of the quickest forms of death for the DPS Commando in rateds is the 3xwarrior jump train (made much more 'fun' since the buffs to smash). I'm sure you all know what I'm talking about... 3 warriors (juggs/maras) jump in and smash in quick succession.

 

There is no escape for the commando. No vanish (shadows/scoundrels/sentinels), no sprint (sages/shadows), no jump away (guards), no cover (slingers) - and whilst the DPS vanguard suffers from SOME of the the same defensive limitations (tactics gets hold the line, which is a big help), at least he/she gets to keep DPSing, whilst we're completely shut down.

 

Dead serious, anyone under focus fire without support will die instantly. Not a problem with Mercs specifically, but TTK in general. Escape mechanisms barely come into play, most likely you're chain stunned and/or defensives are on CD. Happens to me all the time and I'm wearing medium armor, so I die even faster than a merc! Lets not get too specific about circumstances, if this and that etc etc, in general this is what happens when good teams have excellent focus coordination.

 

Thus, invalid argument.

 

Yeah, I actually have a 50 gunslinger (it was my first 50 on the shadowlands server) - you have no IDEA how much of a big deal cover is in comparison to mercs/commandos. You assume because you die quickly when you get focused we're in the same boat, but you don't get focused half as much by melee because you can't be jumped to much of the time. Also the difference between medium and heavy armor is *miniscule* once you factor in internal/elemental damage and debuffs (and of course the big portion of ranged damage mitigated by hard cover).

Edited by Jherad
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The thing people haven't pointed out about sustained damage is that it IS valuable in PvP because it is not burst damage that kills, it is focus fire. The sustained classes are the ones that give fire support to the burst classes who might not be able to finish off a class without exhausting their resources. What a sustained damage class like the merc can do is keep up the pressure on a target while a burst class recuperates resources and goes in for another attack.

 

In Military terms, Sustained classes are the ones that give suppressive fire. Suppressive fire rarely kills but it keeps a target harassed and pinned. Burst classes are the air support, the artillery support, the fireteam you sent out to flank the people pinned by your suppressive fire.

 

Also another military ideal that really does apply here: if you are giving the enemy a fair fight you are doing something badly wrong.

 

Good example is if I'm on my Operative. Now if I pop on a target and they survive the burst, they're going to get healed. Now if I have a Merc friend open up on that guy at the same time, it may just give the extra damage needed to finish off the target or at the very least negate much of the healing it will receive.

 

The problem is is that too many CoD kiddies play the game and expect you can go Rambo and take out an entire team solo and expect all fights to be 1v1 and that the other guy's teammates aren't allowed to help out once you start fighting them. This is not that kind of game. Teamwork and coordination bets a bunch of CoD kiddies trying to be Solo Heroes any day of the week.

 

It's an RP-PvE server, no? That means the PvP is optional. It's not optional on a PvP server while questing planetside in PvP areas.

 

First of all how often do you actually run into people of the opposite faction while levelling up? Alderaan and Voss are the only placed you really see people without having to actively go out looking for them because the quest zones in those areas aren't more or less completely separated.

 

Second. It's a Roleplay server. Roleplayers are the people that organise open world PvP events. My server recently had a huge one in Tatooine that lasted for several weeks.

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Dead serious, anyone under focus fire without support will die instantly. Not a problem with Mercs specifically, but TTK in general. Escape mechanisms barely come into play, most likely you're chain stunned and/or defensives are on CD. Happens to me all the time and I'm wearing medium armor, so I die even faster than a merc! Lets not get too specific about circumstances, if this and that etc etc, in general this is what happens when good teams have excellent focus coordination.

 

Thus, invalid argument.

You do have AOE stun which we lack. Escape for a commando doesn't exist.

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You do have AOE stun which we lack. Escape for a commando doesn't exist.

 

It's not a stun, breaks on damage. And doesn't always work, because of other people, full resolve etc. At best it can delay the inevitable for a couple seconds. _Slightly_ better off than Mercs for sure, in certain situations, but then I'm most likely out of cover and not better off. Focus fire = Mark of death.

 

And like the guy above me argues, it's a team game.. Some teams are better than they should be.

Edited by Svii
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