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Kaggath Series: Darth Traya vs Revan


Beniboybling

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Just to make a point, this argument and rather heated debate is why I believe KotOR II and Chris Avellone are the best thigns to happen to Star Wars, it's hilarious that the Revan fans will go on about how much better the first game is, then when they tell you why, they go on about how great Revan is and how epic and mysterious he was, then fail to realise that it was the second game that put him on such a high level of 'epic' status, without sacrificing how great the rest of these characters are, beautiful work.
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What makes you think Traya's numbers are few. She may have lost the fleet, but her ground forces are still at full capacity. She has hundreds of assassins and hundreds of Sith at her command. She has plenty of forces.

 

Now we have to remember that no blockade is fool-proof. All Traya has to do is wait for them to become lax and then move in. One weak link is all she needs to get assassins on one of the ships. From there it's all down-hill. They'll move from one ship to the next using space suits, which are quite common. They only have to trick the next ship that something is wrong with their ship, pretend to send an engineering team over, and continue the cycle. As I have said before, a supposed stalemate only works in her advantage.

 

Now we're done.

 

Well I strongly disagree with this, but now you already know why, so I'll give you the last word here.

 

Good debate.

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Just to make a point, this argument and rather heated debate is why I believe KotOR II and Chris Avellone are the best thigns to happen to Star Wars, it's hilarious that the Revan fans will go on about how much better the first game is, then when they tell you why, they go on about how great Revan is and how epic and mysterious he was, then fail to realise that it was the second game that put him on such a high level of 'epic' status, without sacrificing how great the rest of these characters are, beautiful work.

 

Who's this aimed at and what does this have to do with the debate?

 

I like both the KOTOR games (and I obviously like Revan more then the Exile) but I would easily pick KOTOR 2 over the 1st on any day.

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Who's this aimed at and what does this have to do with the debate?

 

I like both the KOTOR games (and I obviously like Revan more then the Exile) but I would easily pick KOTOR 2 over the 1st on any day.

 

1.Those people know who they are, I won't point fingers. 2.I was making a statement pertaining to how passionately people make their pleas, this thread as a good example and without KotOR 2, I guarantee it would not be nearly as deep.

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Now you speak of the force as if Traya is the only one who has it. Revan has himself (he's no slouch) and plenty of Jedi. This isn't a force vs strength in numbers fight.

 

If you honestly think that Traya can beat Revan in this scenario, then there's nothing I can do to.

 

Three jedi masters that survived the purge that the Sith Triumvirate initiated, wiped away with one fel swoop by Traya in their own enclave. It is -not- about being a slouch in numbers or the Force, it is proven ability and testimony from the characters. Revan, Jedi Knight Revan, is absolutely dead according to the very definition of Traya's -demonstrated- power.

 

There's nothing you can do because there is nothing you can present as evidence to the contrary. Her two apprentices kicked her out of the order because they had learned all the could from her, and look at them:

 

Darth Sion

Darth Nihilus

 

two of the most powerful forces spawned by dark teachings- Inability to die and the ability to devour, to kill the Force, under her command and her tutelage (I am aware Sion's power did not come from Traya but she did further his education and have complete control of him) If they are not clear examples of her power, of her knowledge, and if you cannot imagine just Jedi Knight Revan facing her power, *emphasis* demonstrated power, for which there is no defense, or at the very least no defense that could be known by JKRevan or the jedi under his command, then, I'm sorry, there is nothing I can do for you :p

Edited by BlazingShadow
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Three jedi masters that survived the purge that the Sith Triumvirate initiated, wiped away with one fel swoop by Traya in their own enclave. It is -not- about being a slouch in numbers or the Force, it is proven ability and testimony from the characters. Revan, Jedi Knight Revan, is absolutely dead according to the very definition of Traya's -demonstrated- power.

 

There's nothing you can do because there is nothing you can present as evidence to the contrary. Her two apprentices kicked her out of the order because they had learned all the could from her, and look at them:

 

Darth Sion

Darth Nihilus

 

two of the most powerful forces spawned by dark teachings- Inability to die and the ability to devour, to kill the Force, under her command and her tutelage (I am aware Sion's power did not come from Traya but she did further his education and have complete control of him) If they are not clear examples of her power, of her knowledge, and if you cannot imagine just Jedi Knight Revan facing her power, *emphasis* demonstrated power, for which there is no defense, or at the very least no defense that could be known by JKRevan or the jedi under his command, then, I'm sorry, there is nothing I can do for you :p

 

"No evidence I can present on the contrary?" Listen; I'm not downplaying her ability in the force. Not at all. I would agree that (due to sever force) that she could likely beat Revan one-on-one.

 

This is my argument in this scenario: Traya has one shuttle vs Revan and a thousand hammerheads. Not only that, but he is likely building hammerheads due to the endless amount of loot he could accumulate because the rest of the known galaxy is up for grabs.

 

For argument's sake, I'll agree with you that Traya and her assassin's can board a Republic ship. Now what? There is no chance that they could take out a THOUSAND of Revan's ships before they were killed. Does Revan need to fight Traya one-on-one to do this? No. Here's what happens:

 

One of Revan's ships is being taken over by the assassins and then someone turns on the alarm. At that second Revan know's one of his ships. What does he do? He blasts it to peices. Traya and her assassins are all dead.

 

I suppose you'll argue that Traya and her assassins will sneak onto several ships before they reveal themselves. The same thing happen's here. Somebody pulls the alarm and Revan shoot's them down.

 

How many assassins could you fit in a shuttle? If you are REALLY stuffing it, I imagine you could fit thirty. What happens if each of these assassins are able to successfully infiltrate a ship? Same thing happens. They get shot down. Revan has them so vastly outnumbered. Not only that, but he's a great stratigist. You'll argue that Revan doesn't know what he's doing, but he's used some mass-deceptions of his own. Canderous Ordo says it himself that as soon as Revan joined the war, he started using mass-deceptions. The guy canonically knows this stuff.

 

What is it that I've said here that leads you to believe I'm ilogical as you've implied?

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I haven't being reading these passed posts, just scanning. So far I haven't found any argument made by either side that sways my decision.

 

I will however counter one point, if only to protect the integrity of the debate.

 

And that's really what it comes down to. The Kaggath sets up what is supposed to be a military conflict between a fully realized military power with an experienced leader and an organization that is completely ill-equipped to be anything of the sort and a non-military leader. There's nothing wrong with Kreia or her methods in the normal scheme of things, but battle like this is CLEARLY not her strength.

 

I think only the best of Kreia in the areas where she excels, but with the conflict as presented in the OP it is absolutely ridiculous to think she had even a fighting chance.

Incorrect. The Kaggath was an ancient rite of Sith that pitted the combatants and their respective power bases against each other.

 

Darth Nox was not an 'experienced leader' with a 'fully realized military power' - his power base consisted of himself and a Moff that liked him. Traya is a Sith Lord and leader of the Sith Triumvirate - one of two powers (the other being Darth Sidious) who pratically succeeded in wiping out the Jedi Order. I've yet to see any evidence to suggest that Traya had a couple of battered cruisers and some sith here and there. She inherited the entire Sith Empire. And unless the Republic managed to wipe out the Empire, which may I mention was winning the war, in the space of a year, then much of it remained when Traya took the mantle. The Kaggath is one part duel one part large-scale dejarik-match. What did Traya say again?

 

"No game of dejarik can be one without pawns... and this may prove to be a very long game"

 

Its the opening quote to the thread for gods sake, Traya was made for the Kaggath, a duel where deception, manipulation and guile where just as important as military strategy.

 

Oh and no way would Traya leave Malachor when Revan had it surrounded. You may argue the rules force her to, because its against the rules to sit and do nothing (which it is). But Traya was doing something, not physically but mentally. She was goading him into a direct confrontation, feigning complete defeat and no doubt manipulating his mind through the Force and enticing him with the dark side energies of Malachor. In more ways than one, she was on the offensive.

 

/endthread

(lol, I actually have the power to do that) :D

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Also, somebody argued earlier that Traya's forces wouldn't betray her because they have no escape. Well now that they have this shuttle, they'll all be tempted to leave. Thoughts?

 

They still wouldn't betray her. They have become enthralled to her cause. Her manipulations and the corruption of Malachor V have literally enthralled them to her. The are fanatically loyal to the Dark Side and their master.

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"No evidence I can present on the contrary?" Listen; I'm not downplaying her ability in the force. Not at all. I would agree that (due to sever force) that she could likely beat Revan one-on-one.

 

This is my argument in this scenario: Traya has one shuttle vs Revan and a thousand hammerheads. Not only that, but he is likely building hammerheads due to the endless amount of loot he could accumulate because the rest of the known galaxy is up for grabs.

 

For argument's sake, I'll agree with you that Traya and her assassin's can board a Republic ship. Now what? There is no chance that they could take out a THOUSAND of Revan's ships before they were killed. Does Revan need to fight Traya one-on-one to do this? No. Here's what happens:

 

One of Revan's ships is being taken over by the assassins and then someone turns on the alarm. At that second Revan know's one of his ships. What does he do? He blasts it to peices. Traya and her assassins are all dead.

 

I suppose you'll argue that Traya and her assassins will sneak onto several ships before they reveal themselves. The same thing happen's here. Somebody pulls the alarm and Revan shoot's them down.

 

How many assassins could you fit in a shuttle? If you are REALLY stuffing it, I imagine you could fit thirty. What happens if each of these assassins are able to successfully infiltrate a ship? Same thing happens. They get shot down. Revan has them so vastly outnumbered. Not only that, but he's a great stratigist. You'll argue that Revan doesn't know what he's doing, but he's used some mass-deceptions of his own. Canderous Ordo says it himself that as soon as Revan joined the war, he started using mass-deceptions. The guy canonically knows this stuff.

 

What is it that I've said here that leads you to believe I'm ilogical as you've implied?

 

Step 1. Fill a shuttle full of Sith Assassins

Step 2. Exploit a straggler ship, begin doing as what happened aboard the Harbinger and start injuring crew, cutting them down to half-shifts, basically allowing the assassins more freedom of movement.

Step 3. Bring more assassins.

Step 4. Wait for the inevitable inter-fleet travel in order to perforate the assassins throughout the fleet and find their way to Revan's ship, bringing Kreia along who is no amateur to sneaking around.

Step 5. Assassinate Revan. What's the rest of the fleet going to do, send boarding parties? Against an invisible enemy and someone who could dispatch her own assassins with a four-second fade-to-black screen?

 

There is no strategy to confront what you are not aware of. And the knowledge that there are assassins is useless if you have no way to counter them. Aboard the Harbinger with one apparent Sith Lord in a tank, even when knowing Sith were aboard the ship, the Republic forces could do nothing to stop the slaughter that was to come. Very much the same scenario here because the fleet would not fire aboard Revan's ship. However, if the did, for some reason, then you would have your tie :D

 

Or perhaps the assassins are a diversion aboard the other ships, raising red flags and alarms everywhere, mass chaos, panic, allowing for Traya to subtly sneak into Revan's ship, assassinating him and then leaving. She's quite good at sneaking around, using words in order to get large results, but when the end result is to kill Revan... as you've admitted he is quite vulnerable to her... well... lol.

Edited by BlazingShadow
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Step 1. Fill a shuttle full of Sith Assassins

Step 2. Exploit a straggler ship, begin doing as what happened aboard the Harbinger and start injuring crew, cutting them down to half-shifts, basically allowing the assassins more freedom of movement.

Step 3. Bring more assassins.

Step 4. Wait for the inevitable inter-fleet travel in order to perforate the assassins throughout the fleet and find their way to Revan's ship, bringing Kreia along who is no amateur to sneaking around.

Step 5. Assassinate Revan. What's the rest of the fleet going to do, send boarding parties? Against an invisible enemy and someone who could dispatch her own assassins with a four-second fade-to-black screen?

 

There is no strategy to confront what you are not aware of. And the knowledge that there are assassins is useless if you have no way to counter them. Aboard the Harbinger with one apparent Sith Lord in a tank, even when knowing Sith were aboard the ship, the Republic forces could do nothing to stop the slaughter that was to come. Very much the same scenario here because the fleet would not fire aboard Revan's ship. However, if the did, for some reason, then you would have your tie :D

 

Or perhaps the assassins are a diversion aboard the other ships, raising red flags and alarms everywhere, mass chaos, panic, allowing for Traya to subtly sneak into Revan's ship, assassinating him and then leaving.

 

An interesting scenario, but one flaw: while you may not be able to see assassins, you can see ships.

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An interesting scenario, but one flaw: while you may not be able to see assassins, you can see ships.

 

you can also jam transmissions. You can also hide in the debris fields. The republic could very well be sending scouting parties through the debris fields to make sure nothing leaves, your blockade, board one and fly back... mm, quite fun. It could be interesting, the shuttle could feign as debris, or it could be investigated by those just far too curious, or Traya could be aboard and manipulate the crew's minds.

 

And if the ships are not close enough to the debris field, then they are not scanning and Beni's scenario plays out.

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I haven't being reading these passed posts, just scanning. So far I haven't found any argument made by either side that sways my decision.

 

I will however counter one point, if only to protect the integrity of the debate.

 

Incorrect. The Kaggath was an ancient rite of Sith that pitted the combatants and their respective power bases against each other.

 

Darth Nox was not an 'experienced leader' with a 'fully realized military power' - his power base consisted of himself and a Moff that liked him. Traya is a Sith Lord and leader of the Sith Triumvirate - one of two powers (the other being Darth Sidious) who pratically succeeded in wiping out the Jedi Order. I've yet to see any evidence to suggest that Traya had a couple of battered cruisers and some sith here and there. She inherited the entire Sith Empire. And unless the Republic managed to wipe out the Empire, which may I mention was winning the war, in the space of a year, then much of it remained when Traya took the mantle. The Kaggath is one part duel one part large-scale dejarik-match. What did Traya say again?

 

"No game of dejarik can be one without pawns... and this may prove to be a very long game"

 

Its the opening quote to the thread for gods sake, Traya was made for the Kaggath, a duel where deception, manipulation and guile where just as important as military strategy.

 

Oh and no way would Traya leave Malachor when Revan had it surrounded. You may argue the rules force her to, because its against the rules to sit and do nothing (which it is). But Traya was doing something, not physically but mentally. She was goading him into a direct confrontation, feigning complete defeat and no doubt manipulating his mind through the Force and enticing him with the dark side energies of Malachor. In more ways than one, she was on the offensive.

 

/endthread

(lol, I actually have the power to do that) :D

 

OK done.

 

I can see you've likely picked Traya to win. *sigh*

 

Please go back and read the last 5 pages before you finalize your answer. I realize you don't intend to announce the winner until the start of the next thread, but it would really help me leave this debate behind if you did. Just saying.

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I'd like to point out that when Traya killed these "three Jedi Masters" , they were in the middle of severing Meetra Surik from the Force and were, thus, distracted. I'll also point out that Traya can mask herself from detection against Force Users and Force Sensitives. A trick that didn't work on Atris' Handmaidens because they were "numb" to the Force. So, Traya didn't really kill three Jedi Masters in open combat. She, as she usually does, backstabbed them and Force Drained them while they were unprepared. A tactic that wouldn't work on Revan.
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I'd like to point out that when Traya killed these "three Jedi Masters" , they were in the middle of severing Meetra Surik from the Force and were, thus, distracted. I'll also point out that Traya can mask herself from detection against Force Users and Force Sensitives. A trick that didn't work on Atris' Handmaidens because they were "numb" to the Force. So, Traya didn't really kill three Jedi Masters in open combat. She, as she usually does, backstabbed them and Force Drained them while they were unprepared. A tactic that wouldn't work on Revan.

 

It's over bra'.

 

K-God has spoken

(I'm gonna start calling you K-God)

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I'd like to point out that when Traya killed these "three Jedi Masters" , they were in the middle of severing Meetra Surik from the Force and were, thus, distracted. I'll also point out that Traya can mask herself from detection against Force Users and Force Sensitives. A trick that didn't work on Atris' Handmaidens because they were "numb" to the Force. So, Traya didn't really kill three Jedi Masters in open combat. She, as she usually does, backstabbed them and Force Drained them while they were unprepared. A tactic that wouldn't work on Revan.

 

The masters were not backstabbed, they were confronted, lectured, and even with their defenses up, aware of Traya's presence, she broke right through them.

 

That is true, she is visible to non-force sensitives and yet she can still skulk around ever so gracefully.

 

But this discussion is over.

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They didn't show much in the way of defenses. She walked in and blasted them against a wall. Then choked and lectured each one in turn, getting in their heads, weakening them. That's what she does. And Zez-Kai-El said she was as "A shadow of the Exile", after stating that it was hard for them to even feel her presence. There wasn't even a fight. They stood there and got wasted. Nvm that, for "Jedi Masters", they really didn't do anything.

 

Between the KotoR comics and both games, the lore on them is scarce and they never did anything of worth. Being a "Master" doesn't make you obscenely powerful. It had already been stated that when Revan was a Jedi Knight ,he was already them most powerful Jedi of his era.

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I haven't being reading these passed posts, just scanning. So far I haven't found any argument made by either side that sways my decision.

 

I will however counter one point, if only to protect the integrity of the debate.

 

Incorrect. The Kaggath was an ancient rite of Sith that pitted the combatants and their respective power bases against each other.

I've yet to see any evidence to suggest that Traya had a couple of battered cruisers and some sith here and there. She inherited the entire Sith Empire.

 

 

[I]Not according to the game[/i]

 

And unless the Republic managed to wipe out the Empire, which may I mention was winning the war, in the space of a year[/i],

 

[I]Which it did.

 

 

then much of it remained when Traya took the mantle.

(lol, I actually have the power to do that) :D

 

But there is evidence; ITS KOTOR 2. The Sith destroyed themselves after the death of Malak, and either Revan's defection or just leaving. The Sith lost Korriban, Traya even says that when the pub forces arrived the Sith had all killed themselves.

 

Traya never had an empire, she lead Malacore V and a few ships. You are using flawed information to make your assumptions, therefore your assumptions are false. I call a re-examination.

Edited by Ausstig
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The masters were not backstabbed, they were confronted, lectured, and even with their defenses up, aware of Traya's presence, she broke right through them.

 

What did she actually do, though?

 

From what I understand from the dialogue in the game, she 'shows them the galaxy through the eyes of the Exile' - and when you inspect their corpses in the game, it's as if they no longer exist in the Force.

 

From that, I always took it that she exposed them to the same level of pain and horror that caused the Exile to voluntarily sever herself from the Force to avoid the backlash - hit them with a wound in the Force. In essence, she hit them with Malachor V, right in the face. And because they couldn't sever themselves from the Force, because they were too dependent on it, they died.

 

But... would that work against Revan? Traya has such a love for him because he's the greatest student she's ever trained - better than Nihlus or Sion, because unlike them, Revan isn't dependent on the Force, presumably. That's the quality she seems to most respect and prize. And he's familiar with Malachor, so...

 

And, can she do it when the Exile isn't there? I assumed that because the Exile was there, and the Exile carries the horror of Malachor around with her, and because the Exile and Traya were linked, that Traya could do what she did then.

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Traya wins she trianed revan so she knows all he is capable of also she trained Nilihus and sion and so forth so she knows what each is capable of and can probably do most things they can

 

Nihilus was a wound in the Force. Traya is not. She can't do what he can. Also, Traya/Kreia was only One of Revan's teachers. Revan had more than half a dozen Teachers among the Jedi and learned from all of them. And then he went to war and tempered his skills with experience in combat. Revan knew and understood war better than anyone else. Also, Revan expanded his knowledge during the war and this was evidenced in KotoR. He was already learning of the Rakata and the Star Force prior to the Emperor turning him. This was revealed during the vision on Dantooine.

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you can also jam transmissions. You can also hide in the debris fields. The republic could very well be sending scouting parties through the debris fields to make sure nothing leaves, your blockade, board one and fly back... mm, quite fun. It could be interesting, the shuttle could feign as debris, or it could be investigated by those just far too curious, or Traya could be aboard and manipulate the crew's minds.

 

And if the ships are not close enough to the debris field, then they are not scanning and Beni's scenario plays out.

 

It is a lot harder to hide a capital starship in a debris field than a ship the size of the Ebon Hawk or the Millenium Falcon.

 

Also, if everyone would look at what all Revan accomplished in KotOR I, taking on Malek on the Star Forge, despite all of Malek's advantages he still ended up getting killed by Revan (whom still was missing a lot of his memory).

 

Kreia acknowledged Revan was probably way more powerful than she was.

 

Kreia may have been a master at deception and duplicity, however Revan was also a master at deception and duplicity, if you listen to HK-47's explanation as to the differences between Revan and Malek, it is fairly obvious that Kreia and Revan are probably evenly matched when it comes to deception.

 

Additionally her Sith Assassins weren't the only ones with Stealth Field Generators, heck in KotOR, if you are a scoundrel starting off, you get a stealth field generator. They aren't exactly rare, and the mandalorians were using stealth generators quite a bit, so Revan's troops probably knew how to deal with stealth enemies.

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