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Advanced Prototype is a joke right?


oceansofmars

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I kinda enjoyed this spec in pve...because I dont PvP....everyone here is probably talking about it in pvp.

 

 

But kids will be kids...OH IT SUCKS BECAUSE IT FEELS AWKWARD OH ITS TERRIBLE AND ANYONE USING IT IS A STUPID BUTTFACE. I wish someone plays an Adv. Prototype and comes up with an amazing guide how to play to wipe these smirks off the faces of people that bash **** because ITS TOO HARD I DONT KNOW HOW TO PLAY IT!

 

It's really not hard to play at all. People just prefer big numbers and faceroll so they hate on it.

 

For instance, people should really be doing a 5/34/2 build for PvP, not the 8/31/2 that is suggested. 9% Aim is nice but means nothing if you are dead due to missing mitigation or if you can't control your enemies because of 10 more seconds on Electro Dart.

 

It's very similar to playing AP in PvE except with more liberal use of Carbonize (use it to force enemies to pop their CC breaker so then you can Electro Dart for 4 seconds....allowing for all ticks from a 5x Flamethrower channel).

Edited by Mapex
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It's really not hard to play at all. People just prefer big numbers and faceroll so they hate on it.

 

For instance, people should really be doing a 5/34/2 build for PvP, not the 8/31/2 that is suggested. 9% Aim is nice but means nothing if you are dead due to missing mitigation or if you can't control your enemies because of 10 more seconds on Electro Dart.

 

The Electro Dart cd talent is one of the more negligible ones, imo. It's really very rare that I don't have Cryo ready if Electro Dart is on cd, unless I've just burned both on a healer or something. Advanced Tools and Hitman are incredible, however.

 

Also, can we please stop pretending that AP is any more faceroll than Pyro. You are not part of some sort of exclusive "omg, I play AP because I'm skilled" club; the spec is every bit as faceroll as Pyro. Probably moreso because you have a get out of jail free card every 30 seconds that makes kiting laughably easy, as well as running away from opponents and trolling sorcs/mercs.

 

Also, being able to utilize FT successfully (against one opponent, at least) once a minute is kind of a gimmick for damage. Do you really want to compare that to what Pyro or ST is bringing to the table?

Edited by Varicite
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The Electro Dart cd talent is one of the more negligible ones, imo. It's really very rare that I don't have Cryo ready if Electro Dart is on cd, unless I've just burned both on a healer or something. Advanced Tools and Hitman are incredible, however.

 

Also, can we please stop pretending that AP is any more faceroll than Pyro. You are not part of some sort of exclusive "omg, I play AP because I'm skilled" club; the spec is every bit as faceroll as Pyro. Probably moreso because you have a get out of jail free card every 30 seconds that makes kiting laughably easy, as well as running away from opponents and trolling sorcs/mercs.

10 seconds on a 4 second CC that is used to let you unleash a +100% damage Flamethrower is very important. Once you get used to the 50 second Electro Dart CD and you spec out of it, the 10 second difference becomes very noticeable, especially since AP lacks CC outside of Carbonize, ED, and Grapple.

 

And it's not that AP is for pros and PyroTech is for easy mode kiddies. What I meant to say is that when people get used to something that is straightforward to grasp (such as PyroTech which is all about maximizing Rail Shot) that it can be difficult to understand how another playstyle works if it isn't as clear (AP has no similar focus on any one ability the way PyroTech does). While I'm an AP advocate, I've played every spec of the BH through multiple stages of beta and now on live; I love all the specs and have no ill will towards any of them.

 

I will say this again because so many people keep trashing on it unfairly: AP is a VERY GOOD spec.

 

Is it more than 90% as good as PyroTech? No.

Is it worse than 80% as good as PyroTech, though? No.

Do you get to hear an epic laugh on your powerful procs? No.

Will it become overpowered if it receives some minor tweaks? No.

But does it need a COMPLETE redesign and overhaul? Hell no.

 

The AP spec needs just a few number tweaks (and I bet you that's all we're truly going to see in 1.2 anyway) and it will perform just fine. These tweaks may provide a slightly lower barrier to entry so the focus of the tree becomes more clear, especially to newer players.

Edited by Mapex
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10 seconds on a 4 second CC that is used to let you unleash a +100% damage Flamethrower is very important. Once you get used to the 50 second Electro Dart CD and you spec out of it, the 10 second difference becomes very noticeable, especially since AP lacks CC outside of Carbonize, ED, and Grapple.

 

And it's not that AP is for pros and PyroTech is for easy mode kiddies. What I meant to say is that when people get used to something that is straightforward to grasp (such as PyroTech which is all about maximizing Rail Shot) that it can be difficult to understand how another playstyle works if it isn't as clear (AP has no similar focus on any one ability the way PyroTech does). While I'm an AP advocate, I've played every spec of the BH through multiple stages of beta and now on live; I love all the specs and have no ill will towards any of them.

 

I will say this again because so many people keep trashing on it unfairly: AP is a VERY GOOD spec.

 

Is it more than 90% as good as PyroTech? No.

Is it worse than 80% as good as PyroTech, though? No.

Do you get to hear an epic laugh on your powerful procs? No.

Will it become overpowered if it receives some minor tweaks? No.

But does it need a COMPLETE redesign and overhaul? Hell no.

 

The AP spec needs just a few number tweaks (and I bet you that's all we're truly going to see in 1.2 anyway) and it will perform just fine. These tweaks may provide a slightly lower barrier to entry so the focus of the tree becomes more clear, especially to newer players.

 

I just don't agree, I guess. I leveled as AP and played as a lot of different variations before finally settling on the 2/13/26 spec that I'm currently playing. In an earlier post, I mention how I've played as both Pyro and AP a good deal; I'm not making uninformed judgments about the tree.

 

I did actually start out very used to the 10 second reduction on Electro Dart and then dropped it later. It took some getting used to, but I don't feel the talent is all that clutch. I include it in my list of "nice to have"s, but not a gamebreaker, y'know?

 

I definitely don't dislike AP, but I do believe there are fundamental flaws in the tree. It's dependence on run speed instead of snares hampers its ability to stay on target. HO helps this, but the giant glowing yellow gear just screams for people to burn their stuns on you.

 

Its dependence on Flamethrower, which is an incredibly iffy skill to use (melee range, non-targeted channel that people can just walk out of) unless you're willing to burn one of your admittedly limited CCs on damage instead of control.

 

The tree lacks any real on-demand burst moves to kill people, and while steady damage is nice, it's not what's going to kill a healer. That's actually what made me start to look elsewhere; all the control in the world wasn't going to help if I didn't have the extra oomph to kill someone when necessary.

 

I'm not saying it needs the exact same mechanics as the other trees, but the mechanics in place right now are fundamentally flawed and it really hurts AP's viability.

 

It can work, but most likely, if you're doing well as AP, you could find a spec that does even better in one of the other trees. I sure did, but that's just me obviously.

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AP's problem isn't damage as in Damage over time, the build itself actually does really good damage.. You're going to hit hard with AP, it's got excellent mobility and it is beefier then Pyro..

 

However....AP doesn't have on demand burst...Immolate hits pretty much the same as TD, However your rail shot is going to be weaker, and you can't make them flow together like Pyro can.

 

I suppose you could use Explosive Dart, but then that ability just frankly hits like *** so it's not really worth it.

 

If it had another burst ability comparable to say TD that you could string together similar to Pyro, it'd be pretty good actually...

 

Right now the line is basically there if ya wanna be a beefy DPS (run Ion instead of AP's Cylinder)

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For instance, people should really be doing a 5/34/2 build for PvP, not the 8/31/2 that is suggested.

 

Sorry to interrupt. No one in their right mind is suggesting 8/31/2 let alone ANY ?/3x/?! The tree is broken. What is it you do not get. It is not people prefer big numbers. It is not a matter of style. It is not preference. It's not that the tree is good for PvE but not PvP or vice versa. It's not that people just go with the flow. Tons of players, since beta, has tried to squeeze any possible merit out of this tree and the best they can do is a Hybrid with heavy ST.

You still have absolutely all the right in the world to live in a delusional state where the AP tree is viable for anything outside running a little faster from point A to point B.

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10 seconds on a 4 second CC that is used to let you unleash a +100% damage Flamethrower is very important. Once you get used to the 50 second Electro Dart CD and you spec out of it, the 10 second difference becomes very noticeable, especially since AP lacks CC outside of Carbonize, ED, and Grapple.

 

And it's not that AP is for pros and PyroTech is for easy mode kiddies. What I meant to say is that when people get used to something that is straightforward to grasp (such as PyroTech which is all about maximizing Rail Shot) that it can be difficult to understand how another playstyle works if it isn't as clear (AP has no similar focus on any one ability the way PyroTech does). While I'm an AP advocate, I've played every spec of the BH through multiple stages of beta and now on live; I love all the specs and have no ill will towards any of them.

 

I will say this again because so many people keep trashing on it unfairly: AP is a VERY GOOD spec.

 

Is it more than 90% as good as PyroTech? No.

Is it worse than 80% as good as PyroTech, though? No.

Do you get to hear an epic laugh on your powerful procs? No.

Will it become overpowered if it receives some minor tweaks? No.

But does it need a COMPLETE redesign and overhaul? Hell no.

 

The AP spec needs just a few number tweaks (and I bet you that's all we're truly going to see in 1.2 anyway) and it will perform just fine. These tweaks may provide a slightly lower barrier to entry so the focus of the tree becomes more clear, especially to newer players.

 

No my friend, I would say AP=60%* Pyro

your quicker dart, and flame thrower are absolutely worthless in PvP. First of all, you are not only limited to the cooldown of the dart. The biggest factor is the Resolve bar on your enemy, which NOTHING in the AP tree can do anything about. If the Resolve bar is capped, you can kiss both your dart and your FT goodbye.

Second, 90% of the time in pvp you are fighting 1v1. FT even if you manage to have the 5 stacks, even if with a miracle you can stun/snare someone for a full 4sec. Is still inferior to the burst dps of a pyro.

 

I will agree with you on the number tweaking. Yes the AP tree would be a nice alternative with some number tweaking. But these numbers have to be more than minimal. We're talking complete change in the formula of certain abilities. There are many PTs that would love to see that day. I will be the first in line to switch to AP.

Edited by Agooz
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AP's problem isn't damage as in Damage over time, the build itself actually does really good damage.. You're going to hit hard with AP, it's got excellent mobility and it is beefier then Pyro..

 

However....AP doesn't have on demand burst...Immolate hits pretty much the same as TD, However your rail shot is going to be weaker, and you can't make them flow together like Pyro can.

 

I suppose you could use Explosive Dart, but then that ability just frankly hits like *** so it's not really worth it.

 

If it had another burst ability comparable to say TD that you could string together similar to Pyro, it'd be pretty good actually...

 

Right now the line is basically there if ya wanna be a beefy DPS (run Ion instead of AP's Cylinder)

 

No the AP does not do good damage period. And I am not comparing to the Pyro, I am comparing to ANY other dps AC. In PvE, pyro is still superior than AP, assuming you know how to manage heat, which anyone specced pyro for more than a day knows how to.

 

TD > immolate. Without doing any math, I will take TD for the 30m range as opposed to 10m. Regardless I am a pyro and I dont even spec TD. I go 8/6/27 or 8/8/25. So Pyro is still way ahead of AP even without TD.

 

I really want the AP to be revamped to be purely a PvP spec. The problem is I cant see that happening without changing the Pyro tree as well.

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AP was ok when i first entered Wzs at 50 with no gear and all I wanted to do was hit the hydros and run like hell every time someone looked at me funny. I knew killing something was pretty low on the list of possibilities so I just went into annoy mode, running around interrupting, preventing caps, and whatnot. With a proper team I could see an AP BH could be an asset, but still probably not over a Pyro.

 

Once I got some gear and went Pyro its amazing how much more damage I did and have not gone back. The (slightly) increased mobility and utility of AP does not in any way equal the damage output of Pyro.

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I would say quite the opposite. 90% of the time in PVP I am not fighting 1v1.

 

I am talking in terms of dps output focus. As a BH, if you are running in a mix, with flame sweep and flame thrower, you're not going to kill anyone. AOE does have its moments every now and then, but 90% of the time you are focusing dps on 1 person and that person is doing the same thing, whether it's back to you or on someone else. That's what I meant by 1v1, probably should have said single target dps.

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No the AP does not do good damage period. And I am not comparing to the Pyro, I am comparing to ANY other dps AC. In PvE, pyro is still superior than AP, assuming you know how to manage heat, which anyone specced pyro for more than a day knows how to.

 

TD > immolate. Without doing any math, I will take TD for the 30m range as opposed to 10m. Regardless I am a pyro and I dont even spec TD. I go 8/6/27 or 8/8/25. So Pyro is still way ahead of AP even without TD.

 

I really want the AP to be revamped to be purely a PvP spec. The problem is I cant see that happening without changing the Pyro tree as well.

 

AP does fairly good damage, This has been proven in recent threads, I'm sure you've actually seen them that it's DPS is not much worse then Pyro.

 

Look, i'll even give ya the thread for it

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=210530

 

Fact is, what makes Pyro great in PVP is the burst it is able to easily setup, If AP could do the same, I simply wouldn't be Pyro.

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AP does fairly good damage, This has been proven in recent threads, I'm sure you've actually seen them that it's DPS is not much worse then Pyro.

 

Look, i'll even give ya the thread for it

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=210530

 

Fact is, what makes Pyro great in PVP is the burst it is able to easily setup, If AP could do the same, I simply wouldn't be Pyro.

 

With all due respect, I take that thread with a grain of salt. And that IS the only thread. You make it seem there are plenty of threads proving the merits of the AP tree. Furthermore I do not consider a thread that started 2 months ago as recent. Calculating dmg on spreadsheet based on tooltip and not a parse is guesswork at best. If you ask 100 PTs who have tried both trees I would say 99% of them will tell you that Pyro has alot more "sustained" dps (not just burst) than AP.

Edited by Agooz
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With all due respect, I take that thread with a grain of salt. And that IS the only thread. You make it seem there are plenty of threads proving the merits of the AP tree. Furthermore I do not consider a thread that started 2 months ago as recent. Calculating dmg on spreadsheet based on tooltip and not a parse is guesswork at best. If you ask 100 PTs who have tried both trees I would say 99% of them will tell you that Pyro has alot more "sustained" dps (not just burst) than AP.

 

I've played both specs at endgame and in PvE they are comparable. You will see more big numbers from Pyro, and if you get extremely lucky on RNG, the burst from the PPA proc may edge it out, but AP offers good sustained damage (albeit stronger against multiple targets) and extremely good heat dissipation.

 

Admittedly I don't have hard numbers (wish we had a damage meter), but I do base this conclusion on multiple hardmode runs with a regular 4-person group in which the only variable was my powertech spec - and both groups and bosses were dying in roughly the same amount of time, which to me is a pretty good indication that I was putting out about the same amount of damage overall.

 

PvP's a different story due to burst being king for DPS specs. AP is almost DoT-based in its damage. As I've mentioned in other places, I do like using a 19/22/0 build for PvP, but I regard it as more of an Iron Fist build that relies on HO and Charged Gauntlets instead of Jet Charge and Rocket Punch than a true Advanced Prototype build.

 

What actually irritates me is how thematically the two specs don't line up. You'd think Immolate and a Flamethrower buff would belong in the Pyrotech tree (especially the graphic and description of Immolate) while using uncommon/experimental explosives (Thermal Detonator) and a Prototype Particle Accelerator would belong in the Advanced Prototype tree.

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With all due respect, I take that thread with a grain of salt. And that IS the only thread. You make it seem there are plenty of threads proving the merits of the AP tree. Furthermore I do not consider a thread that started 2 months ago as recent. Calculating dmg on spreadsheet based on tooltip and not a parse is guesswork at best. If you ask 100 PTs who have tried both trees I would say 99% of them will tell you that Pyro has alot more "sustained" dps (not just burst) than AP.

 

This is completely anecdotal, obviously, but I found that I did very similar damage numbers for most abilities in either spec, however Rail Shots landed for much more and far more frequently as Pyro.

 

It basically boiled down to X damage or X damage + awesome Rail Shots, which is a no-brainer for damage. The extra RS's also allow you to take down targets much more quickly when they proc, and that spreadsheet shows that Pyro will use twice as many RS's as AP on average, which seems about right.

 

The other thing that really needs to be taken into consideration, from a pvp standpoint, is that a whopping 24% (23.8%) of AP's DPS comes from Flamethrower alone, being used on every cd. This is DEFINITELY not going to be happening in a PvP environment. Take this out of the mix and you can really start to see why people "feel like" AP performs at ~80% of what Pyro can do in the same given situation.

 

It's nice to see the spreadsheet more or less confirmed everything (damage-wise) that I've been saying about AP in this thread, though.

Edited by Varicite
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Flamethrower should be moved to the tanking tree! It doesn't belong in AP at all.

 

Why not buff the actual cool abilities of the tree (cool looking that is, functionality is another story). Retractable blade should do some serious damage, not just a piddly 200ish bleed tick that is loled at.

 

Immolate should light somebody up just like it says. I'm talking 3.5k crits at least. Replace that horrid flamethrower talent for something that increases the damage and crit chance of Immolate by a % with every time you use flame burst.

 

JUST FOR THE LOVE OF GOD GET FLAME THROWER OUT OF THE TREE IT MAKES NO SENSE!

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Actually that is prob. the most sense I have read in a long time. I would TOTALLY agree that Immolate and the Flame thrower talents be moved to the Pyro tree. In exchange, AP gets TD and talents to proc free crit RS.

I've been saying it for a long time. AP should be our main PvP and Pyro for PvE.

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Flamethrower should be moved to the tanking tree! It doesn't belong in AP at all.

 

Why not buff the actual cool abilities of the tree (cool looking that is, functionality is another story). Retractable blade should do some serious damage, not just a piddly 200ish bleed tick that is loled at.

 

Immolate should light somebody up just like it says. I'm talking 3.5k crits at least. Replace that horrid flamethrower talent for something that increases the damage and crit chance of Immolate by a % with every time you use flame burst.

 

JUST FOR THE LOVE OF GOD GET FLAME THROWER OUT OF THE TREE IT MAKES NO SENSE!

 

I'm curious why you decided on the tanking tree and not the PYROtech tree for Flamethrower.

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I have been trying AP again(with a spec including immolate) and on voidstar I have managed to get around 300k, while with pyro I was around 400-500k. After more thought AP has some interesting features and you can kill people with it but its lack of snare is a significant problem consider it is a more melee style build.

 

Immolate does about the same damage(perhaps a little more since it is elemental damage) then TD on hard targets. It is not a bad skill.

 

I have found it is a better build to kill jedi who have the dot immunity/deflect, since its main damage isn't from railshot/CGC. It is also much harder to kill healers with.

 

I suggest APs damage on RB be significantly increased along with its dot, and give RB a snare and make Flame Thrower not interruptable.

Edited by LoKiei
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To make AP work

 

Flamethrower needs an upfront damage amount, not much but enough to that youll get at least one tic of damage when they move

 

speccing into prototype FT needs to set FT cooldown not exist

 

flame barrage needs to make flamethower cost 8 heat instead of the skill it is now.

 

Immolate needs to make flamethower have no CD

 

Hydro override needs to work against any CC, but up cooldown to 45s, speedboost upped to 50%.

 

the speedboost have to stack together and work with sprint.

 

 

The spec should be about busting up groups of people and punishing the enemy team for bad posisitoning rather than another single target dps. Flamethower is garbage in a 1v1 fight but it is amazing for objectives and forcing people to move.

Edited by Taerrik
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Hey, give the guy a break, why the insults?

 

Advanced Prototype does seem like it had pvp in mind in a lot of ways, especially with the movement speed skill, so he's absolutely right, the flame thrower parts seem awkward.

 

Grow up and post something useful and add to the forum rather than detract.

 

I have to admit; this is one of the things I absolutely don't understand. The specific build basically says... Here. Were going to give you a ton of movement and close range bursts plus DoT... Oh. And were gonna buff a skill that requires you to catch enemies in a cone and if you move the skill cancels.

 

Flame thrower is so pointless for everything the AP seems to strive at.

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I have to admit; this is one of the things I absolutely don't understand. The specific build basically says... Here. Were going to give you a ton of movement and close range bursts plus DoT... Oh. And were gonna buff a skill that requires you to catch enemies in a cone and if you move the skill cancels.

 

Flame thrower is so pointless for everything the AP seems to strive at.

 

Those talents should really be in the PYRO tree, imo. Not that I don't enjoy Pyro currently, but thematically, it does make a lot more sense.

 

That's been mentioned a few times in this thread already, I think.

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Prototype flamethrower should immobilize/stun everyone caught in the flame for the full 3 seconds (a stun similar to the SW AoE deafening scream, except not broken by damage and lasting 3sec)

 

I think that would make it an awesome, useful skill in pvp.

 

So it would be like an AoE Force Choke basically.

 

That sounds terribly OP from a group PvP standpoint.

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