Just separate PUGs from premades and keep the seminar for those who care.

Just separate PUGs from premades and keep the seminar for those who care.

 

Surely you understand that in 200+ pages and since the existence of WoW's BGs and the countless tired argument on the subject there,

 

this simplistic solution has already been suggested and thought over, and has been discarded for many very concrete and solid reasons.

 

Among which,

Queuing time,

Variating group sizes,

The mathematical impossibilities of filling bg of 8 vs 8 exclusively with groups of 3,

the already existing " ranked "bracket,

the already "smart" matchmaking engine that constatanly weights the average desire of evenly dispatched solos to fill uncomplete teams against the queing time to find the best compromise between, exact team comp match and queuing time.

 

The checkbox for people willing to wait more for solo only is the only solution I ve seen put forward so far

with very little to no negative impact on others players or even a positive impact on other players

AND giving people for whom solo only is of more important than queuing time

Edited May 27, 2013 by Ajuntalee

But still, you are here and begging for the chance to play against PUGs. Why is it? Why don't you wanna play against other premades?

 

So where did I say I want to fight only pug again?

 

The reason why I am against PuG vs PuG cause it'll do a few stupid things:

 

- Premade will just simple queue solo and time it so that they group up.

- PuG vs PuG ends up being a herp derp stupid match, its just DM and nothing else.

 

Now to say I dont vs against other premades, why dont you come to Harbinger 55 on reset as Empire when we get to face Republic superqueues. I deal with them all the time, Premade or PuG.

 

Stop assuming that premades want to pug stomp, and if they do its because your stupid to let that happen in the first place. If you werent stupid then you can tell me off, but as far as I am concerned PuGs are beyond hope sometimes.

Let's try to use some formal logic on this one.

 

The proposed premise:

"It's not fair, a premade is needed to win."

with the added addendum:

"I don't want to form a premade."

therefore:

"It's not fair, I don't want to do what is needed to win."

 

If both of the proposed premises are true (which, according to many arguing against premades, they are) then the conclusion is true by definition. There you have it. The conclusion is that people just don't want to do what is needed to win. That is the anti-premade argument broken down into its base form, and quite frankly, seems ridiculous.

 

That's the kind of logic I expect from someone who would defend premades, because he is profiting from that layout.

So where did I say I want to fight only pug again?

 

The reason why I am against PuG vs PuG cause it'll do a few stupid things:

 

- Premade will just simple queue solo and time it so that they group up.

- PuG vs PuG ends up being a herp derp stupid match, its just DM and nothing else.

 

you are right only for the first reason, in my own experience best pvpers come from pugs, abillity to predict own team same time as opponent team make them the best;

 

we live modern, busy days, most people pug, even and those that do not pvp unless they have a team of friends online same time, they still pug, since their group isn't full

Edited May 27, 2013 by deedeede

So where did I say I want to fight only pug again?

 

The reason why I am against PuG vs PuG cause it'll do a few stupid things:

 

- Premade will just simple queue solo and time it so that they group up.

- PuG vs PuG ends up being a herp derp stupid match, its just DM and nothing else.

 

you are right only for the first reason, in my own experience best pvpers come from pugs, abillity to predict own team same time as opponent team make them the best;

 

we live modern busy day, most people pug, even and those that do not pvp unless they have a team of friends online same time, they still pug, since their group isn't full

 

I agree. I never used to premade because I used to see it as a crutch, or at least I would see others use it as one. Pugging was all I would do, and while it was more difficult to work with random players, as you say it makes you a better player because you have to not only be aware of what the enemy team could possibly do, but your pugs as well. I think it helps a player to increase awareness because you can't always rely on the pugs during matches, sometimes you end up being the only one trying to do what different roles would in a premade. And that will only make you better.

The issue is when you keep going against the same premade. I've just about had it with this game. There just isn't enough people queueing. I disagree with the comments that pugs are herp de derp type match. I have a family and might only be online for a match or two at a time. I'm at the end of my patience for this game.

When you do OPS can you be casual and **** around? If you are skilled and/or outgear the damn content.

 

When you do PvP can you be casual? Yes but you should be TRYING TO WIN.

 

When you do Dailies do you go half assed? Up to you, if you want to spend hours on a daily that can be done fast and efficient. Which would you prefer?

 

I'm tired of these "I dont have enough time" BS. Its like saying that it gives you the right to be half assed when you say that. Thats what pisses me off. Its why Premade is increasing. If people werent half assed, then Premades wont be so dominate because it only yields a slight advantage. Its not advantage enough to claim otherwise.

 

If I have to play with PuGs at least he courtesy is to not give up when the chips are down and fight hard and try and win.

 

EDIT:

 

Dont give me BS about PuGs ISNT HERP DERP, when I see PuG try and set up passes, communicate, and **** thats good tactics.

 

When I see PuG say nothing go in the middle and zerg thats HERP DERP ****. 90% of those matches are the latter. The 10% are those waiting for friends to get onto a premade.

 

If you want to enjoy your experience then you need to learn the damn tactics. Nobody wants to premade with a guy that wont put *********** effort in.

Edited May 27, 2013 by Zhaker

That's the kind of logic I expect from someone who would defend premades, because he is profiting from that layout.

 

No, I use this kind of logic because it is actual formal logic. If you are using anything other than that (with the given premises that were suggested by those who wish premades removed) then you are, by definition, illogical.

 

Let me spell it out more simplistically as a proof (for clarification a proof =/= absolute proof, it simply maintains that the logic is valid, and the conclusion is true if the premises are true).

 

terms:

A=possession of pre made, B = ability to win, C = desire

If and only if you have a pre made, you will win:

A -> B

Which means the reverse is also true (If you don't have a pre made, you will not win)

~A -> ~B

What I want is to not have a pre made

C = ~A

therefore What I want is to not have a premade which means I will not win

C =~A-> ~B

Since not having a premade leads to not winning, then ultimately...

 

C=~B

"I have a desire to not have the ability to win"

 

That is formal logic. You can argue against it if you wish, but it is both sound and valid. Whether or not is true depends on two premises - "You need a premade to win" and "I do not want to have a premade". If BOTH of those are true (which, gathered from the arguments presented, is the belief of those against premades) then the LOGICAL conclusion is that you do not want to do what is needed to win.

Edited May 27, 2013 by Kontraz

When you do OPS can you be casual and **** around? If you are skilled and/or outgear the damn content.

 

When you do PvP can you be casual? Yes but you should be TRYING TO WIN.

 

When you do Dailies do you go half assed? Up to you, if you want to spend hours on a daily that can be done fast and efficient. Which would you prefer?

 

I'm tired of these "I dont have enough time" BS. Its like saying that it gives you the right to be half assed when you say that. Thats what pisses me off. Its why Premade is increasing. If people werent half assed, then Premades wont be so dominate because it only yields a slight advantage. Its not advantage enough to claim otherwise.

 

If I have to play with PuGs at least he courtesy is to not give up when the chips are down and fight hard and try and win.

 

EDIT:

 

Dont give me BS about PuGs ISNT HERP DERP, when I see PuG try and set up passes, communicate, and **** thats good tactics.

 

When I see PuG say nothing go in the middle and zerg thats HERP DERP ****. 90% of those matches are the latter. The 10% are those waiting for friends to get onto a premade.

 

If you want to enjoy your experience then you need to learn the damn tactics. Nobody wants to premade with a guy that wont put *********** effort in.

 

1. When I pvp I give it my best everything and don't leave WZs early.

 

2. I can't join any premades because I'm a father of two and a husband. Not having time is a legitimate reason for not being able to join a premade. Believe it or not some of us have real world responsibilities that come first. I can solo queue and give it my best, which is probably better than you with your premade anyway. Nobody queues to lose smart guy.

 

3. I don't know where you got the idea we don't know the "tactics." You sound like the type raging in gen chat when the others are actually carrying you. If you're on Pot5 chances are I've carried you at some point.

The issue is when you keep going against the same premade. I've just about had it with this game. There just isn't enough people queueing. I disagree with the comments that pugs are herp de derp type match. I have a family and might only be online for a match or two at a time. I'm at the end of my patience for this game.

 

Until they devise a matchmaking system that preferentially pits premade vs premade, and fills in with pugs, the only option is to quit. There is no penalty for quitting a warzone. You should be able to know within the first min or two if your team is overpowered. Just quit and go back to doing your dailies or whatever. Then, once you have enough pvp gear, just pretty much quit warzones altogether. This is pretty much what I do as I rotate my characters through getting pvp gear. Almost all instanced pugged pvp in mmos is a cluster **** mismatch anyways. Devs don't care and neither should you.

When you do OPS can you be casual and **** around? If you are skilled and/or outgear the damn content.

 

When you do PvP can you be casual? Yes but you should be TRYING TO WIN.

 

This is tainted logic. Basically he say's pugs are subpar players and if thats the case why do they spend 90% of their PVP time running non-ranked.

 

Like some of the others commented who have solo pugged for awhile it is far more challenging then these guilds that wont do a wz without a pocket healer.

1. When I pvp I give it my best everything and don't leave WZs early.

 

2. I can't join any premades because I'm a father of two and a husband. Not having time is a legitimate reason for not being able to join a premade. Believe it or not some of us have real world responsibilities that come first. I can solo queue and give it my best, which is probably better than you with your premade anyway. Nobody queues to lose smart guy.

 

3. I don't know where you got the idea we don't know the "tactics." You sound like the type raging in gen chat when the others are actually carrying you. If you're on Pot5 chances are I've carried you at some point.

 

Let's try some notes:

 

1. Good for you, I used to do that, now I quit if I see repeatedly stupid things, cause 9/10 at my time if I play the end of the game, I have to play with the same guys again. I get a 40% chance of a different group that might play a lil more smartly ( I still could lose, but at least the people trying rather than sitting there and being tools ).

 

2. Joining premades is not about whether you have time or not. Its whether you can get a group of friends or good players to queue up and WZ together, it doesnt require alot of WZ's to do this. You pulling the parent card to simply state that you CANNOT find people to WZ is your problem. I mean if you see a good player or 2 dont you wanna ask for a premade for a single match even? To go casual and go nah I cant be bothered premading is somehow Bioware's fault to allow this to happen, right?

 

3. OK, So you come from PoT5. I thought that the PvP there was "decent" or so I thought from threads and such to go to your server for PvP. Or am I missing something there? Because your ranting about being pugstomped, here yet you come from a server that should have decent PvP, right?

Edited May 28, 2013 by Zhaker

This is tainted logic. Basically he say's pugs are subpar players and if thats the case why do they spend 90% of their PVP time running non-ranked.

 

Like some of the others commented who have solo pugged for awhile it is far more challenging then these guilds that wont do a wz without a pocket healer.

 

Love your logic champ.

 

Just so you know I do 80% PuG and 20% Premade. But I keep saying this but you guys assume I do 150% Premade and nothing else.

 

So basically its ok to just do PuGGing and blame premades for kicking your *** and bending you over. I mean you might as well blame Bioware to allow all this to happen, while your at it go blame PEOPLE for grouping up together because geez we should be all hating each other and untrusting of each other right?

 

Talk about cynicism here.

Analysis .... analysis ... analysis.... too much analysis i might say

 

My 2 cents

 

The people that are making these threads are not pvpers.

 

If devs start to listen to non pvp players then the pvp players will leave the game. They did same thing in Funcoms Age of Conan. ALL good players left the game because they CBA to carry bad players to win.

 

This is an "ask to be carried" thread .....

they are 8 you are 8 there is nothing more balanced than that.

No, I use this kind of logic because it is actual formal logic. If you are using anything other than that (with the given premises that were suggested by those who wish premades removed) then you are, by definition, illogical.

 

Let me spell it out more simplistically as a proof (for clarification a proof =/= absolute proof, it simply maintains that the logic is valid, and the conclusion is true if the premises are true).

 

terms:

A=possession of pre made, B = ability to win, C = desire

If and only if you have a pre made, you will win:

A -> B

Which means the reverse is also true (If you don't have a pre made, you will not win)

~A -> ~B

What I want is to not have a pre made

C = ~A

therefore What I want is to not have a premade which means I will not win

C =~A-> ~B

Since not having a premade leads to not winning, then ultimately...

 

C=~B

"I have a desire to not have the ability to win"

 

That is formal logic. You can argue against it if you wish, but it is both sound and valid. Whether or not is true depends on two premises - "You need a premade to win" and "I do not want to have a premade". If BOTH of those are true (which, gathered from the arguments presented, is the belief of those against premades) then the LOGICAL conclusion is that you do not want to do what is needed to win.

 

Your formal logic is broken right at the first premise: "If and only if you have a pre made, you will win:". Because it is not true. You can also win as a PUG, as long as the other team also is a PUG.

 

Further, in your closing comments, the following sentence (yellow) is wrong:

"You need a premade to win" and "I do not want to have a premade". If BOTH of those are true (which, gathered from the arguments presented, is the belief of those against premades)"

 

The belief of those against premades is not that "you need a premade to win" but "you need to NOT face a premade to have a chance to win (in a pug)". That's a significant difference.

Edited May 28, 2013 by Sharee

That is not logic Kontraz. I don't think you know very much about logic and even less about proofs.

Analysis .... analysis ... analysis.... too much analysis i might say

 

My 2 cents

 

The people that are making these threads are not pvpers.

 

If devs start to listen to non pvp players then the pvp players will leave the game. They did same thing in Funcoms Age of Conan. ALL good players left the game because they CBA to carry bad players to win.

 

This is an "ask to be carried" thread .....

they are 8 you are 8 there is nothing more balanced than that.

 

I think they are starting to listen to these types of players. Look at the only feature in 2.2 that we are getting which is our CC break being reset upon death which almost everyone I have talked to thinks is a step backwards.

 

A lot of players still don't understand resolve, how objectives play out in warzones and how quickly tactics can change in any warzone, and most importantly how class abilities work.

Let's try some notes:

 

1. Good for you, I used to do that, now I quit if I see repeatedly stupid things, cause 9/10 at my time if I play the end of the game, I have to play with the same guys again. I get a 40% chance of a different group that might play a lil more smartly ( I still could lose, but at least the people trying rather than sitting there and being tools ).

 

2. Joining premades is not about whether you have time or not. Its whether you can get a group of friends or good players to queue up and WZ together, it doesnt require alot of WZ's to do this. You pulling the parent card to simply state that you CANNOT find people to WZ is your problem. I mean if you see a good player or 2 dont you wanna ask for a premade for a single match even? To go casual and go nah I cant be bothered premading is somehow Bioware's fault to allow this to happen, right?

 

3. OK, So you come from PoT5. I thought that the PvP there was "decent" or so I thought from threads and such to go to your server for PvP. Or am I missing something there? Because your ranting about being pugstomped, here yet you come from a server that should have decent PvP, right?

 

You misquote a lot or have serious reading comprehension issues. 1) You are the quitter not me. 2) I never said I couldn't join a premade because I couldn't find one. This is a point you are unable to understand until you find yourself in this situation. 3) I probably queued 6 times yesterday and 5 of those we went against a premade. It won't matter much what server I am on with PuG vs Pre.

 

Some of you need to step down from your pedal stool and stop thinking because you join a queue with some other decent players withe good gear that you somehow are more aware of what's going on. There are terrible PuG players out there, but there are some good ones too.

There are terrible PuG players out there, but there are some good ones too.

 

This. One of the best shadows on my server is a loner who pugs and gets invited in rwzs whenever he's on. No guild, no nothing. And it's not like most of the best pvp guilds on the server didn't try to recruit him either xD

 

There are some awesome pug players who can manage to do the impossible by make the team work together while carrying them as the same time.

There are also terrible, terrible premades where you wish they never join your team because it means that half of your team is immediately crap.

 

Generally, it's only a few guilds per server you got to watch out for.

So my advice to you is get involved in PVP guilds so you stand a chance when they log on to do their dailies, etc ...OR don't pvp when they are on.

 

Not trying to be a dick, but it sounds like you want a recipe to win your warzone and that's the best I can offer you aside from saying l2p.

 

And I don't mean l2p in a condescending way, to pvp effectively you must not only understand your class properly but you must also have a good understanding of how the other classes perform. AND that takes time. Best advice I can give you is to roll as many classes as you can so you learn how they behave so you can anticipate how they perform in wzs.

 

FInally good communication and situational awareness can give average teams the superior hand over teams of good players who don't communicate.

 

The main reason why pvp guild premades win generally is because they don't work as individuals but as a cohesive unit so they are bound to be extra effective. PvP guilds will also always have generally well geared teams/ with a good or acceptable composition. SO that goes an extra length as well.

 

All in all, the good players teaming up are going to floor you no matter what (unless you're a good premade as well, in which case, game on!).

In situations like these, it really doesnt matter whether you're PuG or premade yourself. Besides, you get to learn a lot when playing against a good premade.

 

My advice to you is simple, if you don't like getting floored in PvP, then don't pvp. Because you will generally lose more often than win. Might sound harsh but it's true.

Your formal logic is broken right at the first premise: "If and only if you have a pre made, you will win:". Because it is not true. You can also win as a PUG, as long as the other team also is a PUG.

 

nope formal logic was not broken, it is formal logic after all, the very one you use fluidly when you open the trashbins cap before dropping the trash atop of it.

 

a premise is .... well a premise,

 

the logic is the link if pushing the trashbin pedal will not open (because the pedal is broken) the trashbin's cap then your logical conclusion of pressing the pedal before droping the trash into the bin is erroneous, because the premise "the pressing of the pedal will clear the cap away from the trash's fallpath" was false while you assumed it was true.

 

 

the poster said it, premises can be false , and you quoted it, too bad you did not read it. and indeed the premise he used is false, but i don't remember him saying it was true.

 

Further, in your closing comments, the following sentence (yellow) is wrong:

"You need a premade to win" and "I do not want to have a premade". If BOTH of those are true (which, gathered from the arguments presented, is the belief of those against premades)"

 

The belief of those against premades is not that "you need a premade to win" but "you need to NOT face a premade to have a chance to win (in a pug)". That's a significant difference.

 

It very well maybee if the premise used as a start point is false, which the poster never denied could be the case. in fact it can easily be proven to be false, queue, end up in a match against a premade with no premade on your side, win.

 

You will have proven that the premise is false using the same logic he used to say that if the premise was right the conclusion "when I queue alone i have a desire to lose" was de facto right as well. but don't forget the IF

That is not logic Kontraz. I don't think you know very much about logic and even less about proofs.

 

Actually, that is formal logic. You are free to disagree, but considering I have a degree in philosophy, of which formal logic is an introductory/low-level course therein, I believe I am more than qualified to make that claim. Throw in the fact I've had multiple classes in theoretical and advanced logic, and the formal logic I displayed is really quite simplistic.

 

further reading if interested:

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/213716/formal-logic

Your formal logic is broken right at the first premise: "If and only if you have a pre made, you will win:". Because it is not true. You can also win as a PUG, as long as the other team also is a PUG.

 

Further, in your closing comments, the following sentence (yellow) is wrong:

"You need a premade to win" and "I do not want to have a premade". If BOTH of those are true (which, gathered from the arguments presented, is the belief of those against premades)"

 

The belief of those against premades is not that "you need a premade to win" but "you need to NOT face a premade to have a chance to win (in a pug)". That's a significant difference.

 

As already stated by another poster, my logic still stands. Whether or not it is true is 100% independent of the validity of my argument (validity does not inherently mean truth). In fact, I stated in the setup for my argument that I did no guarantee its truth, only its validity. Perhaps a slight alteration is in order? Let's replace the premise of "needed to win" with "needed to beat a premade". Then would this satisfy? That would leave the conclusion as "I have a desire to not do what is needed to beat a premade." And this, in my opinion, seems just like a lazy excuse (not quite so much as the first, but still.).

Edited May 28, 2013 by Kontraz

Analysis .... analysis ... analysis.... too much analysis i might say

 

My 2 cents

 

The people that are making these threads are not pvpers.

 

Thats not really the true. The whole point of this thread is to recognize that the matching system frequently fills solo pugs around a premade. If it were to make sure the other side has a group of equal size then this thread probably would've died off long long ago.

As already stated by another poster, my logic still stands. Whether or not it is true is 100% independent of the validity of my argument (validity does not inherently mean truth).

 

The term "logic still stands" is used to describe that the conclusion of a logical chain is still true (usually despite of something). It does not mean that formal logic was used, but rather that the conclusion of that logic is valid.

 

In your case, the conclusion is invalid because the premise at the start of the implication chain was false. Thus, your logic does not stand.

 

Your argument is like saying "1+2=12" and when someone points out the equation is wrong, you start arguing that the 'logic still stands' because you used the correct arithmetical symbols in the equation.

 

Perhaps a slight alteration is in order? Let's replace the premise of "needed to win" with "needed to beat a premade". Then would this satisfy? That would leave the conclusion as "I have a desire to not do what is needed to beat a premade." And this, in my opinion, seems just like a lazy excuse (not quite so much as the first, but still.).

 

I like to play a game of soccer against my friends. But i have the desire not to do what is needed to beat Real Madrid. (because i have no desire to fight real madrid in the firstplace). Does that make me lazy?

 

I like to go for a hike in the mountains. But i have no desire to do what is neccessary to be able to scale Mount Everest. Does that make me lazy?

 

Accusing people of not trying hard enough to achieve something they did not *want* to achieve in the firstplace is silly.

 

ESPECIALLY considering we are talking about free-time activity that is supposed to be fun and relaxing after a long day at work. Work is where i try hard to succeed. Swtor is a pasttime where i want to have a relaxed game of PUG against PUG.

Who are you to tell me I can't? That it is wrong? Lazy?

Nobody.

Edited May 28, 2013 by Sharee