Thanks for the write-up dipstick. I have one HUGE hairy question that I would very much appreciate you or someone helping me out on.

How does the Absorb proc relic (BiS for Vanguard) effect the "optimal" stat distributions.

Without any math I can see that during a long fight in my character screen with proc up and stacks of screen my absorb goes as high as 75% (up from about 58.5% pre-screens/proc). This seems DR to me big time, however that up time is not 100%.

Obviously having that large chunk of absorb periodically up must effect optimization numbers. Without calcing it out I have just shifted some abs to shield.

Buffed at 18.5% def, 61%shield, 58.5% absorb. Roughly 27k HP (3 b mods)

So how do I factor this in, since not 100% up time it cant be the full stat # increase, but seems like needs to be accounted for.

Thoughts?

Rhino-B (LotFM)

POWERTECH/VANGAURD

total defense shield absorb

1400 314 586 500

1500 335 634 531

1600 358 681 561

1700 382 727 590

1800 409 772 619

1900 435 817 647

2000 463 862 675

For the vanguard, does this distribution take "powerscreen" into account?

I'm at def/shield/abs 18/55/46% before a fight, but during a fight, I'm at 18/55/54% due to the 8% absorb bonus from Powerscreen. It isn't a proc and I'm able to maintain it to 8% fairly steadily.

Thanks

shonio: i have shown what a 1600 budget gets from the proc relic versus 100 more balanced mitigation points just a few posts back. i tried not to base the stat weights on such momentary bursts of mitigation, but what i would do is just add the 455*6/20 absorb to the equation and i would then reperform the optimization calc. 455 is the amount added (i think) and it can be up 6/20 amount of the time. in terms of the way it affects the equations, its just like assuming the proc relic is another stim for absorb... would you could also use for calc... but agian... its such a small portion of the time and it would make u have less absorb all the time on your gear, which would make you more spikey

ab(abr):=1/(100)*(20+4+8+50 * ( 1 - ( 1 - ( 0.01 / 0.5 ) )^( ( abr+((455*6/20)) / 50 ) / 0.18 ) )):

i assumed for the calcs that tanks had their "normal" stacks of debuffs on the boss continuously. you can look at the vanguard numbers to see what debuffs are on the boss. i tried to seperate the numbers that way. thats why u dont see 12 in the absorb formula for vanguards, and you see 4+8:

ab(abr):=1/(100)*(20+4+8+50 * ( 1 - ( 1 - ( 0.01 / 0.5 ) )^( ( abr / 50 ) / 0.18 ) )):

Since Defense is so valuable for a Guardian tank, your BiS is generally 2 EWH passive Defense relics. No tank should *ever* use the EWH Shield relics: you get all the Shield rating you need on your gear naturally. If you undercut your Absorb rating a bit (some of the Guardians I know do this to get higher Defense, which generally pays out well because of Guardian's low Shield chance), you can get an excellent payout from the DG absorb proc relic.

Hi. Noob tank Guardian here. Could you elaborate on why that is true? I've seen that you said that JGs get a lot of skills that help defense. Could you be more specific?

It'd help my understanding quite a bit.

Hi. Noob tank Guardian here. Could you elaborate on why that is true? I've seen that you said that JGs get a lot of skills that help defense. Could you be more specific?

To explain this, it's first necessary to understand one of the really wonky aspects of gearing up in TOR: the variable value of shield and absorb. Defense has a relatively static value: each percent of Defense chance you get provides 1% damage mitigation against M/R attacks. Shield and Absorb aren't the same. Since Shield chance represents the chance that you have to reduce the incoming damage of an attack by the amount of your Shield Absorb, the performance of a relative improvement is a variable quantity: 1% additional shield chance whenever you've got an absorb of 30% represents only a .3% reduction in incoming damage whereas, with 70% absorb, it would equate to a .7% reduction in incoming damage.

As such, while Defense remains largely static in value, Shield and Absorb vary based upon their relevant listed percentages. Since the listed percentages are a function of your static talent bonuses combined with your gearing but DR only affects gearing, you need a lot of bonuses from talents to shield and absorb to make stacking Shield and Absorb valuable: without the native bonuses to Shield and Absorb, it's not really possible to get to the point where stacking Shield and Absorb to appreciable extents (re: more than just the token quantity that you see listed in the itemization budgets here) is truly effective thanks to diminishing returns. As such, since the Defense tree has a single, highly anemic Shield talent, no absorb talents, but a friggin' *ton* of Defense from talents (3% from Single Saber Mastery, 6% from Guard Stance, 3% from Blade Barricade), Shield and Absorb are very low value which makes Defense very high value. For comparison, Shadows get 20% additional Shield chance and 4% additional Absorb (along with 6% Defense chance) and Vanguards get 8% additional Shield chance and 12% additional Absorb (with only 2% additional Defense).

To explain this, it's first necessary to understand one of the really wonky aspects of gearing up in TOR: the variable value of shield and absorb. Defense has a relatively static value: each percent of Defense chance you get provides 1% damage mitigation against M/R attacks. Shield and Absorb aren't the same. Since Shield chance represents the chance that you have to reduce the incoming damage of an attack by the amount of your Shield Absorb, the performance of a relative improvement is a variable quantity: 1% additional shield chance whenever you've got an absorb of 30% represents only a .3% reduction in incoming damage whereas, with 70% absorb, it would equate to a .7% reduction in incoming damage.

 

As such, while Defense remains largely static in value, Shield and Absorb vary based upon their relevant listed percentages. Since the listed percentages are a function of your static talent bonuses combined with your gearing but DR only affects gearing, you need a lot of bonuses from talents to shield and absorb to make stacking Shield and Absorb valuable: without the native bonuses to Shield and Absorb, it's not really possible to get to the point where stacking Shield and Absorb to appreciable extents (re: more than just the token quantity that you see listed in the itemization budgets here) is truly effective thanks to diminishing returns. As such, since the Defense tree has a single, highly anemic Shield talent, no absorb talents, but a friggin' *ton* of Defense from talents (3% from Single Saber Mastery, 6% from Guard Stance, 3% from Blade Barricade), Shield and Absorb are very low value which makes Defense very high value. For comparison, Shadows get 20% additional Shield chance and 4% additional Absorb (along with 6% Defense chance) and Vanguards get 8% additional Shield chance and 12% additional Absorb (with only 2% additional Defense).

Thanks. That's very helpful.

Since Defense is so valuable for a Guardian tank, your BiS is generally 2 EWH passive Defense relics. No tank should *ever* use the EWH Shield relics: you get all the Shield rating you need on your gear naturally. If you undercut your Absorb rating a bit (some of the Guardians I know do this to get higher Defense, which generally pays out well because of Guardian's low Shield chance), you can get an excellent payout from the DG absorb proc relic.

Ok, just had a quick read through this post, looking for an answer to my hybrid Guardian tank. Couldn't find exact answers to my specific questions. So excuse me if i missed something.

Just started gearing my guardian tank up. He won't be my main, but would like a decent build that will help my healers out. Trying to balance out now in 63's. Now the OP has optimal for my hybrid guardian tank but these are not achievable due to so much shield stacked on my ears/implants and enhancements.

I see 2 options. If there is a better one, i'm all ears....

Lowering defense to stack more absorb to balance out the amount of shield i have no choice but to stack.....

750/600/500 distribution with 2 defense wh relics (won't be pvp'n much unless i have too..)

OR

Leave defense high, shield high and then use a proc absorb dg relic to help compensate the low absorb i have.....

850/600/300 with a DG absorb proc relic + wh defense relic.

The stat budgets are approximates based around the unavoidable shield stat budget. Any ideas on the best, all round, way to approach this? Not looking for perfect but more a quick and easy fix to get me through the content and help the healers. Already tanked to Kephess in EC NiM in a lot less gear then this, so this is just to help my healers out.

This was a great post to read and thanks in advance for any answers.

Leave defense high, shield high and then use a proc absorb dg relic to help compensate the low absorb i have.....

850/600/300 with a DG absorb proc relic + wh defense relic.

This is your best option. Defense has a much smoother DR curve than either Absorb or Shield (I believe this is because Abs and Shield are higher percent value; they need a harsher DR curve to make up for the comparative improvements). Even accounting for the natural overkill in Shield, you're still better off dumping more Defense than you are trying to get more Absorb to justify it; there just aren't the native bonuses to the values in spec to make it effective.

This is your best option. Defense has a much smoother DR curve than either Absorb or Shield (I believe this is because Abs and Shield are higher percent value; they need a harsher DR curve to make up for the comparative improvements). Even accounting for the natural overkill in Shield, you're still better off dumping more Defense than you are trying to get more Absorb to justify it; there just aren't the native bonuses to the values in spec to make it effective.

Thanks Kitru. This is what i was thinking, but i have been hearing a lot of hate about the proc absorb relics so was not sure. I appreciate the answer.

just to throw a spanner into the works.

1800 rating for assasins states

538 621 641 for def shield abs

I think 502 639 659 gives -0.09% damage taken. (-2 def aug +1 shield +1 abs augment)

Can someone confirm or deny this please.

i only a slight difference in damage. so being full jugg is ok for higher ops?

Full Immortal/Defence is viable. Your actual dps is lower, but your threat modifiers on your abilities are higher to make up for it.

Full Immortal/Defence is viable. Your actual dps is lower, but your threat modifiers on your abilities are higher to make up for it.

The actual threat generation and mitigation are lower as well. It's not just "lower damage, same threat and everything else"; the hybrid is generally considered superior mainly because it has generally been shown to *be* superior, as long as you've got the chops to play it.

Of course, all that said, full Defense *is* fully viable: you'll take *slightly* more damage and generate a fair bit less threat (which you can solve by taunt fluffing like most Guardians are forced to do anyway), but you'll still be fine.

I find myself using assault a lot? Like pretty much every time I have scream on cooldown, I need to put in an assult there to ensure I have enough rage for the next scream. I'm pretty sure I'm doing something wrong as I keep hearing the threat is better, but I don't see those results in my parses. The dps is better, but the TPS looks to be about the same. How much is "more" threat?

After the opener and smash and ravage go on cooldown I find myself going:

Sunder>Assault>Scream> Sunder>Assault>Impale> Sunder>Assault>Assault>

Here's a log to help see where I'm going wrong:

The actual threat generation and mitigation are lower as well. It's not just "lower damage, same threat and everything else"; the hybrid is generally considered superior mainly because it has generally been shown to *be* superior, as long as you've got the chops to play it.

 

Of course, all that said, full Defense *is* fully viable: you'll take *slightly* more damage and generate a fair bit less threat (which you can solve by taunt fluffing like most Guardians are forced to do anyway), but you'll still be fine.

i wouldnt mind trying out a hybrid build. anyone know of a really good one for juggernaut?

i wouldnt mind trying out a hybrid build. anyone know of a really good one for juggernaut?

This is what's become the "standard" hybrid tank spec. There are some variations upon it (some don't take Overhead Slash and instead take a second point in Swelling Winds; some take Stasis Mastery or Courage instead of Swelling Winds), but it's a difference of 1-2 points of allocation at most and there haven't been appreciable differences in performance discovered between them.

just to throw a spanner into the works.

 

1800 rating for assasins states

 

538 621 641 for def shield abs

 

I think 502 639 659 gives -0.09% damage taken. (-2 def aug +1 shield +1 abs augment)

 

Can someone confirm or deny this please.

i got 0.3415 for my numbers and 0.3416 for yours, where lower numbers are better.

> d90(dr):=1/(100)*(10 +6+15+ 30 * ( 1 - ( 1 - ( 0.01 / 0.3 ) )^( ( (dr+46) / 50 ) / 0.55 ) )):

> d100(dr):=1/(100)*(10 +6+5+ 30 * ( 1 - ( 1 - ( 0.01 / 0.3 ) )^( ( (dr+46) / 50 ) / 0.55 ) )):

> sh(shr):=1/(100)*(5+15+20+ 50 * ( 1 - ( 1 - ( 0.01 / 0.5 ) )^( ( shr / 50 ) / 0.32 ) )):

> ab(abr):=1/(100)*(20+4+50 * ( 1 - ( 1 - ( 0.01 / 0.5 ) )^( ( abr / 50 ) / 0.18 ) )):

> ac90 := .5;

> ac100 := .5;

> ac90*(1-d90(dr))*(1-sh(shr)*ab(abr))+ac100*(1-d100(dr))*(1-sh(shr)*ab(abr));

cool thread

now add expertise into the mix, mr wizard dipstik.

Endurance+Expertise differences can account for many different things when gearing for PvP, where you primarily stack defense over sh/ab (if you're a jug).

Patch note (Release candidate) for 2.0 is out : it seems you can now shield (but not dodge) any Kinetic/Energy attacks, even if they're tech or force. That would mean.. shield and absorb >> defense depending on the boss. This is going to be a mess for the tanking spreadsheet.

My hope would be that they're also going to include some degree of increased Resistance chance through Defense rating (either that or actually adding a new stat called Resist rating, which would be the best option, imo).

Kitru, with 2.0 are you saying that S/A is now preferred over Defense for a jugg? Just wondered because my stats as a hybrid were

34% Defense

47 Shield/46% absorb

Now on PTS my defense is down to 19%???

Kitru, with 2.0 are you saying that S/A is now preferred over Defense for a jugg?

Keep in mind the PTS is still a testing environment, and they changed both the DR curves *and* the itemization on gear as part of it. Also, you can't compare current performance in current end game gear to performance in the new end game gear because, right now, we're running at 5 tiers above entry level raiding gear; in RotHC, our 63s are going to *be* entry level raiding gear.

However, purely off of the mechanics, unless something is done to provide Defense with some effect against K/E F/T attacks to some extent, Shield and Absorb are going to be the, de facto, best tank stats because, while Defense only applies to M/R attacks, Shield and Absorb are going to apply against both M/R and F/T K/E attacks. It's still early on, so it's impossible to give a definitive answer, but, based on the current evidence, Shield/Abs are going to be the kingmaker tank stats for all classes.