Before misinformation abounds, no further changes beyond what I already posted are slated to go in for Mercenaries/Commandos in 2.0. More specifically, Cell Charger and Terminal Velocity are fully intact.

 

I also want to dispel any theories that finalizing 2.0 means that we're "done" with class changes. Quite the opposite. The deadline for 2.0 is a big deal, determined by forces far, far beyond my control. The class changes that are going in for 2.0 are the best that we could manage in the window of time given to us. It by no means demonstrates us being "done" with class changes.

 

Classes are the kind of thing that can be iterated on forever, so at some point we can't hold off a major update (let alone a digital expansion) because there's more stuff we want to do for classes. It only stands to reason that those plans will carry on to the next update.

 

We're also discussing the viability of introducing class changes without relying on major updates (like 2.1, 2.2, 2.3, etc). There are a lot of factors at play and this is still an internal discussion, so no guarantees, but know that we'd love to be able to get class changes to you guys as quickly as we're making them.

So there are no changes to Mercenary/Commando healing trees, then?

no further changes beyond what I already posted are slated to go in for Mercenaries/Commandos in 2.0.

 

Read what he wrote again. There will be no healing changes when 2.0 launches beyond what is on the PTS.

The class changes that are going in for 2.0 are the best that we could manage in the window of time given to us. It by no means demonstrates us being "done" with class changes.

 

One year is not enough for you to fix mercs in pvp? Okay...

Edited March 27, 2013 by Glower

Before misinformation abounds, no further changes beyond what I already posted are slated to go in for Mercenaries/Commandos in 2.0. More specifically, Cell Charger and Terminal Velocity are fully intact.

 

I also want to dispel any theories that finalizing 2.0 means that we're "done" with class changes. Quite the opposite. The deadline for 2.0 is a big deal, determined by forces far, far beyond my control. The class changes that are going in for 2.0 are the best that we could manage in the window of time given to us. It by no means demonstrates us being "done" with class changes.

 

Classes are the kind of thing that can be iterated on forever, so at some point we can't hold off a major update (let alone a digital expansion) because there's more stuff we want to do for classes. It only stands to reason that those plans will carry on to the next update.

 

We're also discussing the viability of introducing class changes without relying on major updates (like 2.1, 2.2, 2.3, etc). There are a lot of factors at play and this is still an internal discussion, so no guarantees, but know that we'd love to be able to get class changes to you guys as quickly as we're making them.

 

You sure know how to anger the PvP community..I mean is it really so hard ? mandos are just chopping blocks.

give commandos a group buff like sentnel have, like give 15% shield for the duration of your own shield.

Well thank you for ignoring all valid feedback these two AC have been dead for 1 year and now

they are really dead. You know just as well as we that not 1 ranked team that play competetive have

ever or will evertake these AC in ranked.And now you kill them off completely.Again TY for ignoring all

the good feedback, like you have done since last winter pre 1.2.

 

So if you want to play ranked (i'm sry never ending pre season ranked)people and be apart of the team

roll

smash/focus

sniper/gunnslinger

pyro powertech/assault vanguard

operative healer/scoundrel healer

assassin/shadow

 

Rest is semi viable with mando/merc still garbage .

Edited March 27, 2013 by Lord_Karsk

At this point, unless you are a huge fan of Body Guard/Combat Medic and just want to play this AC, there is no reason to be a healer and play anything other than Sage/Sorc or Op/Sawbones in PvP.

 

Commados/Mercs bring nothing to the table that the other two healing ACs cannot do significantly better in PvP. This issue has existed since 1.2, so I really have doubts about this being fixed anytime in the near future.

 

When life gives you lemons, sometimes you just have to eat lemons.

 

Edited March 27, 2013 by dmanlong

I definitely have a team that supports me, brainstorms with me, and tests with me, but I do all of the design, implementation, and balance for all of the classes by myself. It is a daunting task.

 

Not sure if that was serious, but if it was...damn. Respect for that, even if it is a little worry-some that class balance is on one person's plate.

 

That said, are there any changes to the various Powertech trees with 2.0 that have not been on the PTS?

Before misinformation abounds, no further changes beyond what I already posted are slated to go in for Mercenaries/Commandos in 2.0. More specifically, Cell Charger and Terminal Velocity are fully intact.

 

I also want to dispel any theories that finalizing 2.0 means that we're "done" with class changes. Quite the opposite. The deadline for 2.0 is a big deal, determined by forces far, far beyond my control. The class changes that are going in for 2.0 are the best that we could manage in the window of time given to us. It by no means demonstrates us being "done" with class changes.

 

Classes are the kind of thing that can be iterated on forever, so at some point we can't hold off a major update (let alone a digital expansion) because there's more stuff we want to do for classes. It only stands to reason that those plans will carry on to the next update.

 

We're also discussing the viability of introducing class changes without relying on major updates (like 2.1, 2.2, 2.3, etc). There are a lot of factors at play and this is still an internal discussion, so no guarantees, but know that we'd love to be able to get class changes to you guys as quickly as we're making them.

 

I appreciate you taking the time at least to explain things to us.

 

Is there any chance you could ease some of the other classes mind's in regards to upcoming 2.0 changes not seen on the PTS, like what you did for Mercs/Mandos (listing their changes)?

Edited March 27, 2013 by ScytheEleven

Classes are the kind of thing that can be iterated on forever, so at some point we can't hold off a major update (let alone a digital expansion) because there's more stuff we want to do for classes. It only stands to reason that those plans will carry on to the next update.

 

We're also discussing the viability of introducing class changes without relying on major updates (like 2.1, 2.2, 2.3, etc). There are a lot of factors at play and this is still an internal discussion, so no guarantees, but know that we'd love to be able to get class changes to you guys as quickly as we're making them.

 

Well.. I'm not sure the Sorc/Sage class is going to go over very well. We didn't even get half A&s "Patch" in the PTS like Merc/Mando to address TTK in PVP. What about Auto-Crit on Smash Monkeys? You really want WZ's full of them don't you? Sorry guys.. I've a bad feeling about how this is going to unfold if some minor corrections are not made prior to 2.0 release.

I appreciate the communication Mr. Peckenpaugh has had with us, but that said, I guess troopers and bounty hunters in general are going to be pretty subpar once 2.0 is live.

What about Auto-Crit on Smash Monkeys? You really want WZ's full of them don't you?

 

The dev strategy appears to be to buff snipers like crazy in order to have them be a counter to Smash Monkeys. And then stealth dps are the counter to snipers. Rocker, paper, scissors for the dps classes as it were.

 

The problem here is that there are two groups of dps left out of that relationship. Merc and Sorcs. These groups can't counter any of the 3 preferred dps classes. Nor are melee dps a real counter to stealthers. The rock, paper, scissors loop is incomplete and even if it were complete it excludes certain classes.

Every update I have waited for a fix. 1.2 came and I was like, "Well hang around for 1.3 they might make fixes. Then 1.3 came, 1.4, 1.5, 1.6, 1.7. Finally the news that we are getting fixed in 2.0. Then this. I don't believe you at all when you say the class is done being fixed BW does not care at all about Mercs/Mandos. All of those suggestions on the forums, some of them were fixes that could be implemented in probably less than an hour. Edited March 27, 2013 by HybridCode

The class changes that are going in for 2.0 are the best that we could manage in the window of time given to us.

 

We're also discussing the viability of introducing class changes without relying on major updates (like 2.1, 2.2, 2.3, etc). There are a lot of factors at play and this is still an internal discussion, so no guarantees, but know that we'd love to be able to get class changes to you guys as quickly as we're making them.

 

You need help Austin. If this is all you could do, it's understandable...but this is FAR from what Bioware should have been able to accomplish...given the time they had. You need someone else to help you with this task.

 

And how could class changes POSSIBLY be tied to only major updates? That shouldn't even need to be a conversation to change it, it needs to happen NOW! Tweaks need to be an EVERY update thing. The a's, the b's, the c's...as they are made, get them LIVE ASAP!!! Please!!!

Edited March 27, 2013 by TUXs

We do really appreciate the communication at least. If you are solely responsible for balancing classes then its understandable that you have way too much on your plate. I doubt any one person could do such a insurmountable task. thanks for the heads up.

You need help Austin. If this is all you could do, it's understandable...but this is FAR from what Bioware should have been able to accomplish...given the time they had. You need someone else to help you with this task.

 

And how could class changes POSSIBLY be tied to only major updates? That shouldn't even need to be a conversation to change it, it needs to happen NOW! Tweaks need to be an EVERY update thing. The a's, the b's, the c's...as they are made, get them LIVE ASAP!!! Please!!!

 

Actually, I wouldn't mind so much if they did stick with changes on a major patch update cycle... problem is, the last time they did any class balance changes was 1.5 and at that they only made a single minor change to ONE spec for one AC, beyond that is was really 1.4 that we saw any major sweeping changes across the board... so since October since we saw any attempts to balance the specs out again. While I am sure this had a lot to do with the expansion coming out so soon, it still means that anything you had been working on with the balance changes has been put off for a good 6 months (october to april)... This is definately too long to let things go without trying to bring up poorly played specs.

 

I am very happy with most of the changes coming in 2.0, and a lot of it seems to help fix many many issues with the classes, especially with what you have given us as far as new abilities all seem focused mostly around strengthening and rounding out deficient PVP problems.

 

But PLEASE dont put us off another 6 months... If we cannot have changes pushed as soon as they are ready, perhaps a suggestion that as soon as you get some changes you throw em on the PTS at least for those who can help theory craft can go in there and help you test it out. You could put "2.1" on the PTS without puting any of the new content on there yet. Just give us the class balance changes. Then when it gets about 2 weeks out from the content update you can actually update the PTS with the content for that update. Seems like the best of both worlds. You can make more frequent adjustments to the classes based on data we can help pull for you, and you can keep it to every 6 to 8 weeks.

 

Either way, more serious adjustments being seen every 2 months would be better than the 6 months we had to wait for all these changes we are getting for 2.0

We're also discussing the viability of introducing class changes without relying on major updates (like 2.1, 2.2, 2.3, etc). There are a lot of factors at play and this is still an internal discussion, so no guarantees, but know that we'd love to be able to get class changes to you guys as quickly as we're making them.

 

This is exactly what you need to start doing. I guarantee you that if you start doing this the community will be a lot happier and the game will benefit. Even if you make a mistake, as long as you address it quickly it will be OK.

 

Two perfect examples are Smash and Bubble Stun. It should have become apparent fairly quickly that these specs were overtuned or just broken. Even top players using the specs admitted they were a problem. I think you would have gotten a lot of respect from the community if you guys took ownership of the mistakes and made quick steps to address them. After all, everyone makes mistakes. It's what you do afterward that matters.

 

We can all agree that class balance is tricky. That would seem to support the argument that it's better to make more frequent smaller iterations, instead of rare giant ones. It can't hurt to try it.

Don't like bashing on Bioware, as I still like and play the game, so they cannot be a complete failure but...

 

1) One person doing as a one man army all the class balancing is FOOLISH. It's been proven time and time again that is simply does not work, not in this way. It *may* work but only with dedicated class representatives (if not devs), that know the classes EXTREMELY well and act as a direct bridge between the community and the development team. One person (especially a person that supposedly must work during the day) cannot possibly have enough experience in all classes and specs to do a serious balancing. Besides, there's the natural predisposition he may have toward a certain class, which makes the balancing even harder.

 

2) ANY successful, competitive game developer will tell you that "class" (and take the term very loosely) balancing is the single thing that should be in every single patch, beside bug fixing. True class balance can't really be obtained. Even in FPSs, where there aren't even classes strictly speaking in most cases, weapon balancing is so important that it can make or break the game itself.

Big sweeping changed ofc can't happen overnight, but fine tuning MUST happen ALL the time. Even if somebody were to achieve perfect, theoretical class balance, the metagame (IE class population distribution, actual battle conditions) is ALWAYS changing and class balance must take THAT into account as well.

Now, this sounds as very much pvp focused and it certainly is up to some point (NPCs can't really exploit weaknesses), but even PVE is affected, as the player perception of a class can and will make it more/less desirable in PVE situations too. New PVE encounters also modify how different classes perform (IE Healing Sages have lost part of their advantage in pve due to the new ops requiring often to split the raid into two, thus removing the advantage of a 8 men group heal).

In the end, I agree that "thinking about doing class balance on minor patches" shouldn't even be on the table, it should be the de facto standard. Lack of content *may* bore players to leave. Unbalanced classes WILL make players leave, especially if the overall feeling is of apathy toward class balancing.

 

3) Communication is sorely lacking in the class department. When you make changes they often come out of the blue, with no indication about what are the plans about how a class should work or HOW it should work. The only thing you are citing all the time are your metrics and hitting targets, and while that may be a good starting point, it's clearly not enough, as there evidently are many other issues at work.

Sages/sorcs and mercs/commandos have been left out in the cold for the longest time, but they are just the worst of the bunch. Communication has always been very much lacking and even when present, it was one-way only, with bare statements that really don't answer any of the questions posed.

Thanks for all of the feedback for the Mercs. I'm going to wait and see how the changes pan out. I definately think that electronet CD should have been cut down even further. The change where net is instant should have been like that from its origin, so that isn't an improvement, but rather a problem fix. I personally like the change, but honestly Mercs should have never had to cast TM over and over just to get what snipers do with one shot the 20% debuff. Power surge should have probably been on a lower cooldown, but with 1:30 seconds it isn't as bad as 2 min. Edited March 27, 2013 by MrSIlverSurfing

Although disappointed , I do want to say I also appreciate the communication.

I definitely have a team that supports me, brainstorms with me, and tests with me, but I do all of the design, implementation, and balance for all of the classes by myself. It is a daunting task.

 

Whoah. Okay. Question.

 

Ranged classes stay alive by manipulating range. If standing adjacent to a melee class, they can't survive any encounter.

 

With this in mind, why did you think it was a good idea to add passive snares to rage spec warriors, which were already the spec that had the most gap closers and already had 100% uptime on snares should they be wise enough to make judicious use of crippling slash?

 

With 2.0, manipulating range against this spec went from difficult to impossible for every ranged class other than Marksman and, to a lesser extent, lethality snipers.

 

The design behind Rage is, supposedly, that it is an AoE burst spec. Which is fine. But now it's a range control spec too. It doesn't make sense for me for a class to be all of

 

1) unkiteable

2) high single attack burst

3) high overall damage potential

4) high aoe damage

5) great defensive cooldowns

 

It might make sense to have 2 of those things. But not all of them.

 

To put in perspective, Carnage/Combat has 1, 2 and 5. Deception and Concealment have 1 and 2. But all three of these specs are not only much more difficult to play than rage, but lack the additional advantages. Pyro PT has 2 and 3, but struggles with 1 and 4. Annihilation marauders have 3 and 5. Vengeance Juggernauts have 1 and none of the others. AP PT have 4 and none of the others. . And Madness sins could be argued to have nothing on this list (perhaps 5).

 

 

I guess what I'm saying is that it might be time to pull in more of that team in terms of contributing to design. Ideally, you'd have one developer to serve as an advocate of each spec or, at least, one that really knows each AC. That way you don't end up with a class that makes most others look ludicrous in comparison, which is what you have now with this AC, which has just been made more out of balance than it already was--and it was the easily the strongest AC before.

Honestly Apeckenpaugh, you are useless. We have been the most terrible class for over a year now. One year later you keep focusing on classes that have either been OP(and still are) or classes that are already fine. Until now what we have gotten since 1.2 was that terrible, nearly useless trauma probe tweak(frontline medic), and that's it. And now, when you finally (barely) understand that the merc/mando are utter useless, you buff us. And then you start buffing the other AC's even more? I mean ***? We are terrible and we have been that for an eternity now. If you cannot fix this, then you either need A: Help from other class balance-developers/I assume you aren't the one to decide wether or not someone is going to help you.) Or B: Start playing the commando/merc and work with them until they are fixed.

Before misinformation abounds, no further changes beyond what I already posted are slated to go in for Mercenaries/Commandos in 2.0. More specifically, Cell Charger and Terminal Velocity are fully intact.

 

I also want to dispel any theories that finalizing 2.0 means that we're "done" with class changes. Quite the opposite. The deadline for 2.0 is a big deal, determined by forces far, far beyond my control. The class changes that are going in for 2.0 are the best that we could manage in the window of time given to us. It by no means demonstrates us being "done" with class changes.

 

Classes are the kind of thing that can be iterated on forever, so at some point we can't hold off a major update (let alone a digital expansion) because there's more stuff we want to do for classes. It only stands to reason that those plans will carry on to the next update.

 

We're also discussing the viability of introducing class changes without relying on major updates (like 2.1, 2.2, 2.3, etc). There are a lot of factors at play and this is still an internal discussion, so no guarantees, but know that we'd love to be able to get class changes to you guys as quickly as we're making them.

 

Thanks for all the great communication! Deadlines can be tough! Power Surge cooldown change to 1 min would have been a better idea IMO. Either way mercs shouldn't have to spam TMs to get what other classes get with one ability aka 20% debuff. Electronet being on a 60 second cooldown would have also been great for all the Mercenary trees, since they are all lacking a tad atm.

Whoah. Okay. Question.

 

Ranged classes stay alive by manipulating range. If standing adjacent to a melee class, they can't survive any encounter.

 

With this in mind, why did you think it was a good idea to add passive snares to rage spec warriors, which were already the spec that had the most gap closers and already had 100% uptime on snares should they be wise enough to make judicious use of crippling slash?

 

With 2.0, manipulating range against this spec went from difficult to impossible for every ranged class other than Marksman and, to a lesser extent, lethality snipers.

 

The design behind Rage is, supposedly, that it is an AoE burst spec. Which is fine. But now it's a range control spec too. It doesn't make sense for me for a class to be all of

 

1) unkiteable

2) high single attack burst

3) high overall damage potential

4) high aoe damage

5) great defensive cooldowns

 

It might make sense to have 2 of those things. But not all of them.

 

To put in perspective, Carnage/Combat has 1, 2 and 5. Deception and Concealment have 1 and 2. But all three of these specs are not only much more difficult to play than rage, but lack the additional advantages. Pyro PT has 2 and 3, but struggles with 1 and 4. Annihilation marauders have 3 and 5. Vengeance Juggernauts have 1 and none of the others. AP PT have 4 and none of the others. . And Madness sins could be argued to have nothing on this list (perhaps 5).

 

 

I guess what I'm saying is that it might be time to pull in more of that team in terms of contributing to design. Ideally, you'd have one developer to serve as an advocate of each spec or, at least, one that really knows each AC. That way you don't end up with a class that makes most others look ludicrous in comparison, which is what you have now with this AC, which has just been made more out of balance than it already was--and it was the easily the strongest AC before.

 

I actually have a descent chance in 2.0 killing non ranged classes, but unfortunately it is only ever 1min and 30seconds (electronet). Cooldown should have been brought down on this for the class to be viable at all in 1v1 situations.

We're also discussing the viability of introducing class changes without relying on major updates (like 2.1, 2.2, 2.3, etc). There are a lot of factors at play and this is still an internal discussion, so no guarantees, but know that we'd love to be able to get class changes to you guys as quickly as we're making them.

 

Class balance changes on minor (x.x.x) updates aren't necessary all the time. But if class balance is not good, then it would be wise to take advantage of minor updates to improve matters. When no class balance updates occur, even on major (1.6 & 1.7) updates, you are implicitly telling the customer base that you think class balance is good. As this directly contradicts the experience of the players, it is contributing to the discontent of the player base. My suggestion is a simple one - select the subclasses that need the most adjustment and make changes to them as soon as possible, using minor updates. Save the bigger changes for the major updates. Simple. Logical. And it signals to the user base that you understand and have prioritized needed class balance changes.

Honestly Apeckenpaugh, you are useless. We have been the most terrible class for over a year now. One year later you keep focusing on classes that have either been OP(and still are) or classes that are already fine. Until now what we have gotten since 1.2 was that terrible, nearly useless trauma probe tweak(frontline medic), and that's it. And now, when you finally (barely) understand that the merc/mando are utter useless, you buff us. And then you start buffing the other AC's even more? I mean ***? We are terrible and we have been that for an eternity now. If you cannot fix this, then you either need A: Help from other class balance-developers/I assume you aren't the one to decide wether or not someone is going to help you.) Or B: Start playing the commando/merc and work with them until they are fixed.

 

I understand yoru frustration, but come on. lol

At this point, unless you are a huge fan of Body Guard/Combat Medic and just want to play this AC, there is no reason to be a healer and play anything other than Sage/Sorc or Op/Sawbones in PvP.

 

Commados/Mercs bring nothing to the table that the other two healing ACs cannot do significantly better in PvP. This issue has existed since 1.2, so I really have doubts about this being fixed anytime in the near future.

 

When life gives you lemons, sometimes you just have to eat lemons.

 

 

If you are eating lemons I think you have seperate issues...

 

how exactly would more energy regen increase Merc Healer performance? you could reduce the heat cost of all Merc heals to 0, and the spec would still be the 3rd best in PvP. in PvE it would probably help a bit, but Merc heals is not as handicapped in PvE as it is in PvP.

 

the biggest issues with Merc heals in PvP is the same problem that Arsenal has: vulnerability to interrupts and lack of mobility. a single competent DPSer can pretty much shutdown a Merc Healer. having more heat is not going to make you heal on the move or under pressure better.

 

Seriously... are you trying to act clueless? Because you're doing a really good job. Merc heals is one of the few classes that does have an interupt immunity ability. We also have two instant casts, armor buffs, and HoTs. If you're getting shut down by a single DPS, you need to L2P.

 

Regardless, when you click on a PvE server, it states that this is how the game was designed to be. PvE. Thus, I would be talking about PvE unless I stated otherwise or the thread was in the PvP forums.