I'm posting this because I know that there is at least one other skilled scrapper that frequents these forums, and I'd like some additional opinions on what I believe would be a pretty simple, but effective buff to scrapper.

The buff: Make Back Blast rather than Shoot First grant a stack of upper hand.

- This change would in now way buff the initial burst of a scrapper, since it would not increase the number of upper hands available to a scrapper during the burst phase. This would solely be a sustained damage increase, as well as alleviate energy management issues, since it would reduce the numbers of "holes" in our rotation. Additionally, this change would make scoundrels a little bit more like every other class in the game, not entirely tied to stealth. While we would still lack our hardest hitting move, this will make scrapper seem a little less "dead in the water" after their burst has run out.

That's really it.

Another change that would be really nice, but is in no way necessary or likely to come soon:

- some form of shadow step, allowing a stealthed scoundrel to teleport behind their target.

You may want to suggest this in the Class forums as well. I don't play a scrapper scoundrel, but I have a 39 op, so it seems like interesting changes.

You may want to suggest this in the Class forums as well. I don't play a scrapper scoundrel, but I have a 39 op, so it seems like interesting changes.

I may, I was just attempting to avoid having the majority of people who play tor comment, cause I've read the pvp forums and some of those guys are crazy...

While 100% agree energy management needs to be addressed, my one sore thought on Back Blast generating the upper hand vs shoot first is that would more heavily shape our opening combination. Okay maybe keeping shootfirst generating upperhand along with backblast makes sense (we can't stack more than 2 anyways unless we decide to go up the sawbones tree)

 

I have always thought that scoundrel energy management should be more linear since all our attacks are cooldown based or require upper hand and I think quickshot is gay.

Would this be some kind of scrapper only buff? I say this because then Dirty Fighting would have overall more culls, or a faster burst rotation.

Would this be some kind of scrapper only buff? I say this because then Dirty Fighting would have overall more culls, or a faster burst rotation.

 

Nah, just a general change for all scoundrels, probably just an adjustment in their passive abilities tab

I've played this archetype ad nauseum, first to valor 95, then rerolled and to valor 91, and recently I just gave up. Anything a Scrapper can do, a Shadow can do better. Backblast granting a stack of upper hand? Meh. The honest truth of the matter is the whole tree needs to be taken back and redesigned. No tree has had the consistent amount of nerfs that Scrapper/Concealment had. My honest answer to this whole thing is to roll Scrappers back to 1.0.

 

Here's why.

 

Scrappers were nerfed to hell repeatedly because of their sheer overpowering nature at the start of the game. There are still videos up on youtube of scrappers dropping an 8k opener, 7k backblast, vanishing and doing another 8k opener. The trick of it all is this. The game mechanics have changed to the point that those numbers aren't possible. At the time scrappers were three shotting people you could stack: PvE Power Adrenal, PvP On Use Power Relic, PvP Adrenal (%15 damage at that time), and PvP Warzone pickup. All at once. That kind of stacking is no longer possible, but, scrappers are still punished for it.

 

In addition, the nerfs to scrapper have been sloppy. "Shoot First" is a 1.5 second (1 GCD) Knockdown, that used to be four seconds. Currently, Shoot First fills up about 75% of the resolve bar. The Shadow ability Spinning Kick knocks down for a full 2 seconds, and fills a quarter of the resolve bar.

 

That's my short version of my view on Scrappers. I've retired Flak for the moment and Cates has become my main anyway. To scratch the DPS itch I've got a sentinel I'm leveling since I refuse to play Smash spec. Good luck with this post, but until BW really takes a long hard look at this class, don't expect too much from it.

Edited December 11, 2012 by TalonKorr

To scratch the DPS itch I've got a sentinel I'm leveling since I refuse to play Smash spec. Good luck with this post, but until BW really takes a long hard look at this class, don't expect too much from it.

 

Just for this, i thank you Yeah, nothing a scrapper does hits as hard as id did at launch I still like it for it's 1v1 potential, but I have no preconceptions about bringing him into rateds as a full time dps. A slightly different, interesting change would be to give a temporary buff after striking a killing blow, allowing a player to reenter stealth (kinda helpful, but probably would never be implemented) or maybe just give scoundrels 1 offensive cooldown... seriously... we're the only AC without one...

Scroundrels are OP, buff smash.

Scroundrels are OP, buff smash.

 

I concur, smash has way to many wholes in its rotation...

I have to agree with what Flak said, Shadows do just better overall and Scrappers have either quit or rerolled because of it. Problem is that Scrappers are just a lot of fun, so I still choose to play mine.

 

Honestly, I think we need an execute as well as have our moves normalized to the burst other classes are able to do now. The class was designed too close to a WoW rogue and has the same flaws that class did from years ago. But, a shadow step or similar ability would only cause for more bitterness from ranged classes, so I don't think that's the way to go.

 

One thing that I think could be done, and I know I'd get crap from fellow Scrappers by suggesting it, is change the Soot First knockdown to a snare instead of a stun. You're catching the person by surprise as it is, and you can position yourself for your next move no matter how they react with a snare. All we ever hear about is herding Scrappers because of our stuns, and there are still those bads who use the old SF > BB > Vanish SF routine because they can't fight outside stealth. Stealth is a crutch and is relied to heavily on.

 

I just say increase our output a bit, snare instead of a stun and nobody needs to keep up the old argument about us having too many stuns.

Edited December 12, 2012 by randiesel

I have to agree with what Flak said, Shadows do just better overall and Scrappers have either quit or rerolled because of it. Problem is that Scrappers are just a lot of fun, so I still choose to play mine.

 

Honestly, I think we need an execute as well as have our moves normalized to the burst other classes are able to do now. The class was designed too close to a WoW rogue and has the same flaws that class did from years ago. But, a shadow step or similar ability would only cause for more bitterness from ranged classes, so I don't think that's the way to go.

 

One thing that I think could be done, and I know I'd get crap from fellow Scrappers by suggesting it, is change the Soot First knockdown to a snare instead of a stun. You're catching the person by surprise as it is, and you can position yourself for your next move no matter how they react with a snare. All we ever hear about is herding Scrappers because of our stuns, and there are still those bads who use the old SF > BB > Vanish SF routine because they can't fight outside stealth. Stealth is a crutch and is relied to heavily on.

 

I just say increase our output a bit, snare instead of a stun and nobody needs to keep up the old argument about us having too many stuns.

That's a good point, but...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Hey Zab.

That's a good point, but...

 

 

Hey Zab.

 

No idea where you're going with that but...

 

Anyhow, I happened across your video on Shadows on the forums last week. Very well done. I was curious since I wanted to level one. Props.

No idea where you're going with that but...

 

Anyhow, I happened across your video on Shadows on the forums last week. Very well done. I was curious since I wanted to level one. Props.

 

Okay, have fun and if you need help let me know in game. However, I must warn you that the class will not solve all your problems.

 

On a serious note: I know you guys complain that Shadows do more DPS, etc, but you have a god-like healing tree that's a staple in serious competitive play. Why not use it?

 

For me, if Spec A doesn't work... I'd simply switch to Spec B. All-rounding your class is the best way to work.

Edited December 12, 2012 by Xinika

Healing has never been my thing, and I've never been any good at it. And I didn't roll a scoundrel or operative to heal, I rolled it to play as dps.

 

Call me old fashioned, but I believe that all classes/specs should have equal chance in both pve and pvp. That would be, if BW stepped up and did something.

 

I'm not looking to reroll, just interested in a shadow as an alt and to play the last story I haven't played.

Edited December 13, 2012 by randiesel

Healing has never been my thing, and I've never been any good at it. And I didn't roll a scoundrel or operative to heal, I rolled it to play as dps.

I didn't want to play tank spec at first, but I ended up playing my class for what it is. A Shadow. Not a Balance Shadow or a KC Shadow. Just a plain Shadow.

 

Call me old fashioned, but I believe that all classes/specs should have equal chance in both pve and pvp. That would be, if BW stepped up and did something.

Theoretically that would be a fine idea, but in reality, its implementation is nigh impossible and furthermore - costly.

 

I'm not looking to reroll, just interested in a shadow as an alt and to play the last story I haven't played.

Sure

I didn't want to play tank spec at first, but I ended up playing my class for what it is. A Shadow. Not a Balance Shadow or a KC Shadow. Just a plain Shadow.

 

 

But you don't HAVE to play it as a tank, Balance is extremely viable and very diverse, also, as a tank you can still put up those numbers and get some good solos... on a scoundrel, it is very disappointing that so many ranked teams are trying to force them to conform to the FOTM healing tree. Maybe Healing isn't your Forte, at least with your tank tree you can still mow people down...

 

BTW isn't tank tree a KC shadow?

But you don't HAVE to play it as a tank, Balance is extremely viable and very diverse, also, as a tank you can still put up those numbers and get some good solos... on a scoundrel, it is very disappointing that so many ranked teams are trying to force them to conform to the FOTM healing tree. Maybe Healing isn't your Forte, at least with your tank tree you can still mow people down...

 

BTW isn't tank tree a KC shadow?

 

Regardless, you should still play what you find most fun, it's a game not a job. I play for fun an I don't find healing fun, that's just me personally.

 

Plus a scoundrel's trees are so diverse compared to a shadow. Even tanking, all 3 are melee damage. A scoundrel would be either melee damage, mid-range damage or healing where yoi don't do damage unless you're particularly skilled like Neb. I prefer melee damage, so that's why I play. I suspect Whatever I post will have a counter-argument added to it no matter what my answer, so I'lll leave it at that.

Regardless, you should still play what you find most fun, it's a game not a job. I play for fun an I don't find healing fun, that's just me personally.

 

Plus a scoundrel's trees are so diverse compared to a shadow. Even tanking, all 3 are melee damage. A scoundrel would be either melee damage, mid-range damage or healing where yoi don't do damage unless you're particularly skilled like Neb. I prefer melee damage, so that's why I play. I suspect Whatever I post will have a counter-argument added to it no matter what my answer, so I'lll leave it at that.

 

Fight The Power! Don't be forced to play what you don't want!

beside the 15% to healing while shield probe is active most of the skills are worth training in the healing tree, there isn’t really any "Well I guess this one sucks the least" skill you need to train to access the next tier of skills in that tree.

the pve energy management for concealment is horrid, if they just removed the energy cost of acid blade I think our dps would be fine, and possibly gave ops another in combat stealth that didn’t break combat like force camo, we could toss out an extra hidden strike every min or so to gain another TA so we wouldn’t be constantly sacrificing a lacerate for a stim boost, ive heard other people toss around the idea to a dmg boost to backstab when a target is under 30% which wouldnt be a horrible idea for a lack of an execute.

But you don't HAVE to play it as a tank, Balance is extremely viable and very diverse, also, as a tank you can still put up those numbers and get some good solos... on a scoundrel, it is very disappointing that so many ranked teams are trying to force them to conform to the FOTM healing tree. Maybe Healing isn't your Forte, at least with your tank tree you can still mow people down...

 

BTW isn't tank tree a KC shadow?

 

I told you I play every spec of my class... I was just using that reference to his post. Also, Balance is highly overrated and still mediocre at best.

beside the 15% to healing while shield probe is active most of the skills are worth training in the healing tree, there isn’t really any "Well I guess this one sucks the least" skill you need to train to access the next tier of skills in that tree.

the pve energy management for concealment is horrid, if they just removed the energy cost of acid blade I think our dps would be fine, and possibly gave ops another in combat stealth that didn’t break combat like force camo, we could toss out an extra hidden strike every min or so to gain another TA so we wouldn’t be constantly sacrificing a lacerate for a stim boost, ive heard other people toss around the idea to a dmg boost to backstab when a target is under 30% which wouldnt be a horrible idea for a lack of an execute.

 

I honestly just think since we seriously lack defense, we should make it up in offense with a tiny bit more out of stealth damage. Not Hidden Strike, all we need is to have 7k HS running rampant again...

 

Example, a carnage marauder can burn through their target amazingly fast and has very good defensive abilities to boot, not to mention a fluid resource management versus our crappy energy. Energy is easy to maintain for pve, but we have to dump it all way too quickly to be effective in pvp and then you're looking at a slower energy regeneration rate the more abilities you need to use.

 

Regardless, our damage has never been normalized to match what other melee classes are capable of and with us having little to no defense, we should make up for that by hitting harder. "Lol, L2P" all you want, but it's true.

While, even in my dps gear, I can heal with the best of them, I didn't roll this character for healing. Shin, you at least benefit from all of your trees being quite viable (with Balance being much more powerful than you seem to admit). For scoundrels, i would prefer not to be stuck with healing because I have a good healing tree. In tough wzs, if you want a melee dps you take a Sent/Guardian/Vanguard or even 1-2 shadows, but no one really thinks about Scoundrels. If you want to go dirty fighting, just the tree for Gunslingers offers more increases to damage than scoundrels have. People get impressed when i pull 900+ or 850+ dps in a wz, but those numbers would be pretty bad if you compared it to the potential of a Sent or Balance Shadow

(with Balance being much more powerful than you seem to admit).

 

What do you want me to say? It's spectacular? It's average. Average doesn't mean it's a bad thing. It's simply what I just stated.

 

I play... lots of different specs of my class. I am constantly testing out new quirks and additions. I have very extensive knowledge concerning the mechanics of my class and I am not blinded and or biased by any spec. If I were, that would be extremely illogical and unscientific. I judge it based on its performance compared to the other specs and classes alike. Balance Shadow is nothing that grand nor is it that horrible.

Edited December 13, 2012 by Xinika

Oh hey, didn't even read that was Vasyel who started this thread. How goes it?

 

Anyhow, I did see Damager's post of 1.5 million as Madness spec on another thread, so Balance can't be THAT bad...

 

One thing I think Vas is pointing out is that we enjoy melee dps and full Scrapper spec is all we get. Shadows/Sins have 3 full spec trees, plus 3 hybrid specs, that at least I'm aware of and I barely play my Sin, nor do I keep up to date on what's going on. There is a lot of room for playing and, hell even just throwing your opponent off by him judging how you are specced by looking at what stance (wow term) you have active.