Since I have this set up on my Guild's website and don't want to reformat it for here, check this link - For anyone who wants to know the in's and out's of tanking with Vanguard for PvE - Flashpoints, Heroics, Operations, etc.

http://zenswtor.enjin.com/forum/m/2859668/viewthread/3769201-vgos-guide-to-tanking-vanguard-edition

SPECIAL NOTE: Please be considerate of others when posting a reply to this thread. Also, if you are going to post something here, It is best if you fully read the tanking guide BEFORE posting anything. Thanks!

Nice guide, well laid and easy to understand. Wish this had been posted back when I started my Vangaurd.

The question I have for you, and all Tanks in general. Grabbing aggro when you're in a HM or OP which requires CCing some of the tougher elements of the fight. In that situation you can't use AOE taunts or Mortar Volley without breaking CC.

What's the best rotation to use in that situation? I rely heavily on single target taunts, and storm. It's a heckuva lot of work that way but hey, that's our job...

The question I have for you, and all Tanks in general. Grabbing aggro when you're in a HM or OP which requires CCing some of the tougher elements of the fight. In that situation you can't use AOE taunts or Mortar Volley without breaking CC.

 

What's the best rotation to use in that situation? I rely heavily on single target taunts, and storm. It's a heckuva lot of work that way but hey, that's our job...

You are right, there is more work involved when you have to deal with groups in HMs and Ops. Best rule of thumb is keep as many of them on you as possible, but the harder the targets, the more the priority. If you don't have aggro on every single normal, who cares, they die fast. But if an elite is attacking your healer, that obviously becomes a problem. I save my Neural Jolt in fights like that so that it's available if i need to get an NPC off a group memeber.

When you have to deal with CC'd targets, it really depends on what the NPC composition is like. For example, in False Emperor Hard Mode, there is a group right at the first corridor that consists of 2 Elite droids, 2 Strong Sith(melee), and 3-4 normals. What i will generally do in that situation is pull aggro by attacking or taunting one of the Sith while 2 of my group members CC the big droids. I'll make sure i have aggro on the 2 Sith, and then just have the group take out the normals first, then the strongs, and then we go to the droids. CC-ing makes all the difference in the world on the harder stuff. In other scenarios, you won't CC anything, and then you just taunt the heck out of the group, and have your dps just start picking off targets.

I only use Mortar Volley if there is nothing to CC, or i find a way to get the CC'd target(s) away from the rest of the group so that we can all use our AoE abilities. I tend to swap targets a lot during a fight to make sure i keep damage going out to all targets. They really improved stuff with 1.3, with the addition of the Ion Cell threat boost from 50% to 100%, and little ability boost, such as the fact that High Impact Bolt now works with Ion Cell in a close range AoE.

I disagree with some of the finer points, but in general, looks like a good place for new Vanguard tanks to start.

What finer points do you refer to? I've been Vanguard since day one, and have always had great success with my builds, rotations, and strategies. However, if there is some information lacking in the guide, or something you feel might work better, constructive suggestions are always welcome =)

The question I have for you, and all Tanks in general. Grabbing aggro when you're in a HM or OP which requires CCing some of the tougher elements of the fight. In that situation you can't use AOE taunts or Mortar Volley without breaking CC.

 

What's the best rotation to use in that situation?...

If I can't use Storm & Explosive Surge due to CCed mobs, I use Storm & Neural Jolt on the hardest (non-CCed) mob and then Harpoon on the second hardest mob. If the DPSes do their job corrrectly, they attack the regular mobs and kill them before they can do any harm. If they don't do their job correctly and they attack the harder mobs, it is your job to tell them to attack the regular mobs first.

Up untill today, I am not sure if Sonic Round breaks CC, so I don't use it in these situations. Some say it breaks CC, some say it doesn't, I donno.

If there is a 3rd hard mob, you can use Ion Pulse + Stockstrike + Energy Blast + High Impact Bolt on that one.

Then an Ion Pulse on the first target and another Ion Pulse on the second target.

Then you got this situation...

- you got aggro on all three

- you got Ion Cell ticking on all targets (due to your High Impact Bolt)

- your Power Screen is up to 8% (due to the three Ion Pulses and Energy Blast)

- all three mobs do 5% damage less (due to the Ion Pulse you used on them)

I usually follow up with a Smoke Grenade and a Reactive shield, but most tanks seem to keep those for emergencies, I donno.

Needless to say...

- always, always re-use Stockstrike every time when the CD is finished

- use a Ion Pulse every time the 4th Power Screen is nearly gone, so that it renews

- always re-use Energy Blast + High Impact Bolt when their CD is finished

Up untill today, I am not sure if Sonic Round breaks CC, so I don't use it in these situations. Some say it breaks CC, some say it doesn't, I donno....

... I usually follow up with a Smoke Grenade and a Reactive shield, but most tanks seem to keep those for emergencies, I donno.

 

Needless to say...

- always, always re-use Stockstrike every time when the CD is finished

- use a Ion Pulse every time the 4th Power Screen is nearly gone, so that it renews

- always re-use Energy Blast + High Impact Bolt when their CD is finished

I use Sonic Round frequently, and it does not break CC for me. I used as recently as Friday in Explosive Conflict with no problems at all.

I use Smoke Grenade as often as it is off CD, but i only use Reactive Shield in situations when i really need the extra help (if you waste it on fights you don't need it on, you might not have it when you really need it) - the same goes for Adrenaline Rush. I try not to use the 2 of them together, since there are occasions where they are both needed.

Definitely agree with you on using those abilities all the time. Power Screen is hugely important, so it needs to stay up during a fight, and the other abilities have so many tanking benefits, you'd be foolish not to use them.

Since I have this set up on my Guild's website and don't want to reformat it for here, check this link - For anyone who wants to know the in's and out's of tanking with Vanguard for PvE - Flashpoints, Heroics, Operations, etc.

 

http://zenswtor.enjin.com/forum/m/2859668/viewthread/3769201-vgos-guide-to-tanking-vanguard-edition

Nice guide and oddly enough you seem to spec your VG the same way as mine.

http://www.dumpt.com/img/viewer.php?file=ld2fim2sdb1nyws3m8eg.jpg

And i agree that for the VG defense is for the most part useless (ya i said it lol). It just costs to much for the VG class to stack in my opinion.

P.S. Another reason I like ignoring defense is because of the skill bonuses we get from shielding an attack. I also believe higher shield results in less chance of being crit.

For example when fighting a mob the first roll goes against your chance to outright defend it (dodge). After that it rolls against your shield chance. It is my theory that this roll also goes with chance to be crit (crits can't be shielded). Thus if looking at a 1-100 roll having a higher shield lowers that chance to be crit and thus a mitigated (aka shielded attack) will commence.

Example being say your shield is 50%. The mob roll for crit i believe works the same way as defense and thus has a 1- 50 chance to roll a crit and ignore your shield. The higher your shield the less likely you are to be crit by a physical attack. So at 60% shield the mob has a 1 - 40 chance to roll a crit attack. Otherwise it hits your shield and thus also your absorb. Granted some attacks (force/tech) ignore shield all together but 80% of most boss mob attacks can be shielded. Thus in theory the higher your shield the less chance you have of it being ignored. VG's get a bonus to absorb and shield unlike our force using counterparts (they get def bonus). So why not roll with being the meat shield.

Another example is HM Esseles. The final sith boss hits me for 99 dmg. The only time he ever hits me for any decent amount is with force choke (unshielded attack) or if he happens to land a melee crit (fairly rare). Otherwise it's 99 to 104 hps worth of dmg each time.

Liked the guide, it might be the best I've seen.

My personal preferences:

1) To take the additional elemental damage rather than containment tactics (marginally higher contribution to raid dps vs marginally better toolkit on trash).

2) The start of my "rotation" also prioritises bursting threat rather than building my power screen stack since this is the only time in the fight that threat might be sensitive. Nobody has ever noticed the difference in survivability but a few people have commented on the difference between my opening threat and some other tanks.

3) I have no use for explosive round, there's always a cheaper alternative. Also, while there are situations where full auto would be a good DPS choice they are few and if I'm that far from a mob then I am not holding still.

Yay, another Endurance stacker.

I have a Vanguard. Pretty much BIS. You should max out around 24k HP post-stim as a Vanguard. Please do not copy his example.

Find a nice Spreadsheet and use that to customise your gear. If at any time you are reading a guide and one of the first sentences is "The primary stat of any tank is Endurance." just stop reading.

 

2) The start of my "rotation" also prioritises bursting threat rather than building my power screen stack since this is the only time in the fight that threat might be sensitive. Nobody has ever noticed the difference in survivability but a few people have commented on the difference between my opening threat and some other tanks.

 

3) I have no use for explosive round, there's always a cheaper alternative. Also, while there are situations where full auto would be a good DPS choice they are few and if I'm that far from a mob then I am not holding still.

I will have to modify my statement in the guide slightly, my 'rotation' ignore the opening of the fight for the most part. I always prioritize threat when entering combat. So i always start off with AoE and/or Taunts before i go into my rotation. Once I have the npc's on me, that is when i start my rotation to build up Power Screen and start dishing out some dps to hold threat.

I also agree with you on Explosive Round, I very rarely use it. Sometimes its an easy way to get an npc's attention, but i will usually use something else for that. I don't use Full Auto that often, but if I'm in a 1v1 fight, I use it every once in a while if i'm waiting on a CD for something else.

Yay, another Endurance stacker.

 

I have a Vanguard. Pretty much BIS. You should max out around 24k HP post-stim as a Vanguard. Please do not copy his example.

 

Find a nice Spreadsheet and use that to customise your gear. If at any time you are reading a guide and one of the first sentences is "The primary stat of any tank is Endurance." just stop reading.

Thank you very much for the positive, constructive criticism. The guide has been updated with my new build/stats, as well as a little more clarification in the stat details of the guide.

You are quite correct that Endurance is not the 'primary' stat of a Vanguard. I did not mean to construe that in my guide, and have refined my statements to clarify this. I have reduced my Endurance stat as of the beginning of August in favor of increasing Defense / Accuracy, and optimizing my secondary stats. Your post encouraged me to update my guide, so I thank you for that.

However folks, please keep in mind that my guide is not intended to dictate what is the best Vanguard set up. This will obviously change as the patches get released, and new gear comes out, etc, etc. My guide is an overview of the class, its abilities, and how they are used. If you find certain stats/builds work better, by all means use them, and I welcome feedback to improve my guide.

Guide updated 8/16/2012 with the following:

* New skill point build

* Update to stats and their prioritization

* Opening abilities to gain threat before rotation

Guide updated 8/16/2012 with the following:

* New skill point build

* Update to stats and their prioritization

* Opening abilities to gain threat before rotation

Disagree with Accuracy. You should not put ANY points into Accuracy AT ALL. Yes, this means most of the Tionese/Columi/Rakata gear you get from the vendors is awful.

Are you missing your 4-piece set bonus in those screenshots? It is very important!

You might point out that Explosive Round and Full Auto are weak enough that they can almost be taken off the hotbar.

Skill build: Containment Tactics is bad. Do not put points in it, ever. I used to be a firm proponent of Blaster Augs + Heavy Stock, but after mathing my way through one of my HM EC parses, I found that, in total, those talent points only bought me about 5000 damage. In the longest, hardest fight of the game. Which is less than 1 second of DPS uptime for the raid. I've since switched to Soldier's Endurance...it's only about 600 HP, but that is much more likely to make the difference between winning and losing, IMO. I won't fault people for going either direction there.

Harpoon is almost never an opener, and it's actually not very good at building threat. I only use it to reposition enemies for AOEs, and as an interrupt in rare situations.

Sticky bomb is actually a good opener. It won't put you "into combat" until the projectile actually hits the mob, so your GCD will actually be partially over. If I'm in a situation where I would open with Storm, I will almost always do Sticky -> Storm instead. Don't use your Explosive Surges immediately after your Storm. You have ~12s to use them, so make sure you've spent some ammo first, or they're wasted. A typical Storm opening should be something like

(Sticky Bomb) -> Storm -> Ion Pulse -> Energy Blast -> Ion Pulse -> Explosive Surge (1) -> Ion Pulse -> Explosive Surge (2) -> Stockstrike -> High Impact Bolt

If you're concerned about building AOE threat so mobs don't eat your healers, you might move the first Explosive Surge forward one place, but I wouldn't move it any further than that (and you should probably be using Mortar Volley in that scenario, anyway).

"NOTE: You should also use Nueral Jolt and Smoke Grenade as often as they are off of cooldown."

No. No, no, no. Smoke Grenade is one of your best cooldowns. Rather than firing it constantly, try to use it during high damage phases. For example, on Foreman Crusher, you can make your healer's life easier if you use Smoke Grenade on his Frenzy phases - it should be ready for each of them. Neural Jolt is off the GCD, so you can use it whenever it's needed if you're going to lose aggro. And in harder content, it's really important for tank switching, so you don't want to be in the habit of firing it constantly.

I didn't see you mention Target of Target anywhere in your guide. Turning that on is the #1 tip you can give to any new tank, IMO.

It would be a better guide with a skilltree

I temporarily removed the images of the Skill Tree that I had, a new one will be up shortly.

Disagree with Accuracy. You should not put ANY points into Accuracy AT ALL. Yes, this means most of the Tionese/Columi/Rakata gear you get from the vendors is awful.

You are correct that no one should PUT points into Accuracy. That being said, every Vanguard is going to get accuracy as one of their stats from end-game gear. Never put any more than that into Accuracy, and if you are lucky enough to find a comparable modification piece to replace one with accuracy, definitely use it.

Harpoon is almost never an opener, and it's actually not very good at building threat. I only use it to reposition enemies for AOEs, and as an interrupt in rare situations.

Like you, I use it to reposition enemies for the purpose of AoE, or as an interrupt. But I will occasionally use it as on opener, in conjuction with Storm; Leap to one enemy group, and pull in a straggler.

Sticky bomb is actually a good opener. It won't put you "into combat" until the projectile actually hits the mob, so your GCD will actually be partially over. If I'm in a situation where I would open with Storm, I will almost always do Sticky -> Storm instead. Don't use your Explosive Surges immediately after your Storm. You have ~12s to use them, so make sure you've spent some ammo first, or they're wasted. A typical Storm opening should be something like

 

(Sticky Bomb) -> Storm -> Ion Pulse -> Energy Blast -> Ion Pulse -> Explosive Surge (1) -> Ion Pulse -> Explosive Surge (2) -> Stockstrike -> High Impact Bolt

Good advice, I tried this, and I now use it as my opener in almost every scenario. Works great!

You are correct that no one should PUT points into Accuracy. That being said, every Vanguard is going to get accuracy as one of their stats from end-game gear. Never put any more than that into Accuracy, and if you are lucky enough to find a COMPARABLE level modification piece to replace one with accuracy, definitely use it.

You may want to define "comparable". If you mean "of a similar level", you're gonna be a pretty squishy Rak geared VG tank for a while thanks to all of that redundant accuracy and the relative difficulty/randomness in getting appropriate tank enhs of those levels. If you mean "provides more than the pittance of Abs or Def rating that the Acc Enhs on Rak gear provide" then you'll do fine. This means that, quite often, you'll be using level 50 (re: grade 22) enhancements in place of the level 58ish enhancements that Rak gear is decked out with.

The tool tip for Harpoon states that it generates a high amount of threat, therefore a) you are incorrect, or b) the skill is broken. I find that Harpoon does in fact generate just about as much threat as Neural Jolt.

Then you don't know what you're talking about.

Harpoon generates threat equal to roughly 2.5-3k damage worth (which means it generates about as much threat as a non-crit Stockstrike without factoring in Ion Cell). It is a static quantity. The tooltip simply states "generates a high amount of threat" to indicate that, while it doesn't deal damage, it generates threat anyways and, for an attack that deals no damage, that's relatively high threat.

Neural Jolt (and, in fact, all taunts) do not have a set threat generation quantity. They have 2 effects: the first is that they place the taunt debuff on target, which forces the target to attack them for the designated 6 seconds; the second is that it sets your current threat on the target to the amount needed to have the target have aggro on you (keeping in mind that this value is higher if you are at range rather than in melee) even if the target is already attacking you.

To explain, if you use Neural Jolt on a target than has had no threat generated on it yet (re: you use it as an opener) while at range, the Taunt effect will force the target to attack you for 6 seconds and have no other effect since 0 threat times 1.3 (the amount of threat required to gain threat if at range) is still 0. Now, instead, let's assume that you use Neural Jolt at range on a target that has been CCd for the entire fight thus far and, as such, the highest threat on it is from the healer, who has generated 10k threat (healing threat modifier is .5 so this would equate to 20k worth of healing done). Doing so would place your threat at 13k (the amount needed to pull threat off of its current target) regardless of what your previous threat on it was (like say you just used HiB and did 1k damage to generate 2k threat, it would still just set your threat to 13k). If you used Neural Jolt in melee (such as you would likely do after breaking the CC with Storm or a Stockstrike), you would only have your threat set to 11k (since the melee threat requirement is only 1.1 times target's threat). It's also important to note that the threat multiplication benefit applies even if the target is already attacking you: if you use Neural Jolt at range on a target already attacking you that you currently have 50k threat on, your threat will be set to 65k. Something else to consider is that it is *really* hard to be within what the game considers "melee range" to be for the purposes of threat grabbing (rather than the 4m that melee abilities use, it's closer to 1m for threat considerations). As such, virtually any time you taunt, you'll get the 1.3 threat mod unless you're literally inside your target.

In short, Harpoon really does only generate a pittance of threat compared to what you're really capable of generating. It should only ever be used to reposition targets. Neural Jolt (as well as Sonic Round and all other taunts) are not so much threat generators as threat multipliers that, when used, will generate more threat than the rest of your abilities combined over the course of a fight (if you ever want to have a laugh, use only your taunt after the first 10 seconds of a boss fight that doesn't have a tight enrage; you'll never lose threat unless there is a threat drop mechanic). Thanks to Taunts, threat generation is only a factor for the first 10 seconds or so of a fight when threat values are so low that 30% of total is less than a Stockstrike or 2.

You are correct that no one should PUT points into Accuracy. That being said, every Vanguard is going to get accuracy as one of their stats from end-game gear. Never put any more than that into Accuracy, and if you are lucky enough to find a comparable modification piece to replace one with accuracy, definitely use it.

Hopefully you picked up multiple Columi Supercommando's Gauntlets and Columi Supercommando's Helmets, and can put the enhancements from those into your other Columi gear, your Rakata gear, or your Black Hole MK-1 gear as you get it. Thankfully Campaign gear at least has decent Enhancements in it. :/

The part about your rotation and what abilities you use most often doesn't mention high impact bolt. Do you not use it?

I will have to add that into the guide, but yes, I use HiB every time it is available. Since they added that nice little AoE burst of Ion Cell to HiB, its even better than it was before.

Hopefully you picked up multiple Columi Supercommando's Gauntlets and Columi Supercommando's Helmets, and can put the enhancements from those into your other Columi gear, your Rakata gear, or your Black Hole MK-1 gear as you get it. Thankfully Campaign gear at least has decent Enhancements in it. :/

Yes I have, and I will add something about that to the guide to inform others as well.