Currently leveling all classes to 50+ to see all the stories I've noticed something that struck me as odd, Bioware seems to be perfectly willing to build up characters, let them have a lot of lore and interaction with both sides, to eventually summarily kill them off (often without the other side ever learning about it) to give players some kind of feeling of accomplishment. As long as they're imperial characters that is.

Take for example Grand Moff Kilran, the so called butcher of Coruscant. He was featured in several flashpoints for both sides, interacting with players and being build up as a genius strategist. Before the Republic eventually got to summarily murder him and clap each other on the back.

His opposite when playing Imp is Satele Shan, whom as Imperial you never get a shot at. In fact she survived not just Kilran who functioned as her counterpart during these flashpoints, she also outlasted Darth Malgus her story counterpart and Darth Marr who was brought in as a replacement for Malgus.

Yes the Imperial chars do occasionally kill high profile chars such as the Chancellor, however these chars usually do not show up on Republic side, we don't get to know them before they're killed off. Most of the chars that die during the stories are Republic chars that the Republic players never learn about and never get to know or given a chance to grow attached to.

It strikes me as a bit odd, when it comes to Republic chars such as Satele they seem to have plot armor of immense thickness. Why is Bioware so unwilling to give Imperial chars and players the same kind of accomplishment and grand kills they do hand out to Republic ones on a regular basis?

I wouldn't call it murder, when it comes to Kilran.

Now let's look at Rep siders who die. Of the top of my head, Agent can let all the Rep side SiS team die (or most of them anyways, but sure it's all of them), Jax can due too.

Or is this a matter of dies no matter what?

I wouldn't call it murder, when it comes to Kilran.

 

Now let's look at Rep siders who die. Of the top of my head, Agent can let all the Rep side SiS team die (or most of them anyways, but sure it's all of them), Jax can due too.

 

Or is this a matter of dies no matter what?

Unless republic players got to interact with them before imperial players killed them, they do not count.

His point was how imp side characters our imperial characters got to interact are killed while rep side it happens very little. In fact it is actually worse than shown here as far as I know.

Imperials also lose all the planets of any worth we players spend levels trying to conquer. They lose Balmorra and Corellia, which are valuable. They "win" Taris, which is just a toxic waste dump. The Imps finally have a small victory with Makeb, although then they were desperate and on the brink of destruction.

Now I'm just itching for Satele to die since the Imperials have lost everyone cool on their side.

Which Republic characters do you want to kill? Is it basically "just Satele"? Because she's the only important Jedi NPC left in the story at this point.

Other major Republic characters are a mix of non-combatants, military generals and spies who are much less likely to end up as a boss fight in a mission or flashpoint. The Empire happens to be led by Sith, and it's nobody's fault but their own that they're so prone to committing suicide by hero.

We lost all the original Dark Council and I mean all of them and yet Satele is still alive maybe Vrowhan is still alive and well maybe joined the Eternal Empire but you all get it the imperials get to much loses compared to the Republic.

The Republic only killed a few Dark Councillors, though. Several of them were killed by their own side (and there are a bunch we're not sure are dead).

Its more why Bioware is willing to kill Imperial characters way more then Republic characters.

Right now all of the original dark council members are MIA or dead. We only have the new empress who appeared way later in the story which if my wishes are gonna be fulfilled I am gonna also kill because she is empress and nobody is gonna be above my wrath in the end nobody. Also the best Moff in the empire was killed.

Now the Republic lost all the original jedi council members besides Satele which is not fair she should have also died. They lost the supreme councilor that was replaced very fast. They lost the war trust generals and a couple of jedi masters and knights. Also a good chunk of the SIS.

But the imperials lost Balmora and Corelia and they won Taris the **** that it is and Makeb who at least gave them something. But they also lost Quesh. This makes me wonder why does Bioware wants to see the imperials suffer so many defeats and kills.

Its more why Bioware is willing to kill Imperial characters way more then Republic characters.

Right now all of the original dark council members are MIA or dead. We only have the new empress who appeared way later in the story which if my wishes are gonna be fulfilled I am gonna also kill because she is empress and nobody is gonna be above my wrath in the end nobody. Also the best Moff in the empire was killed.

Now the Republic lost all the original jedi council members besides Satele which is not fair she should have also died. They lost the supreme councilor that was replaced very fast. They lost the war trust generals and a couple of jedi masters and knights. Also a good chunk of the SIS.

But the imperials lost Balmora and Corelia and they won Taris the **** that it is and Makeb who at least gave them something. But they also lost Quesh. This makes me wonder why does Bioware wants to see the imperials suffer so many defeats and kills.

Not only that, the Imperial military seems to be the one that is constantly being weakened.

1. The Imperial military lost 10% of its total fighting forces while fighting for the control of Corellia

2. Darth Malgus, who took a great chunk of the Imperial military with him when he betrayed the Empire

3. Dread Masters' betrayal, which also took a chunk of the Imperial military (both willing and unwilling) with them

Not only that, the Imperial military seems to be the one that is constantly being weakened.

1. The Imperial military lost 10% of its total fighting forces while fighting for the control of Corellia

2. Darth Malgus, who took a great chunk of the Imperial military with him when he betrayed the Empire

3. Dread Masters' betrayal, which also took a chunk of the Imperial military (both willing and unwilling) with them

There's a running theme there. It's the way of the Sith to betray their own and overreach themselves. They make the same mistakes over and over again because those mistakes are built into their core beliefs.

If you're going to build your society on infighting and betrayal, throw away loyal and experienced soldiers and other resources for negligible gain, prioritise targets with no strategic value purely for the sake of spite, and waste vast amounts of potential by relegating aliens and low-caste humans to slavery, then you shouldn't be surprised that your Empire ends up failing badly.

Imp are the bad guys , whats wrong with killing the bad guys ? sheesh

And Satele is Immortal

It is pure propaganda. Just because the empire makes use of its right of free speech and free wars of aggression to promote inequality, slavery and oppression, they are somehow portrayed as the bad guys and can be killed in greater numbers. It is this darned democratic agenda again.

Hah, nice.

y'all realize that the empire loses, right?

In about 4000 years.

It is because you chose the losing side. The dark side of the force is good for short term power. However, to be strong in the long run means turning away from the dark side, and the things it represents. Anger is not a winning poker hand.

Although it is a lot more fun to go through story quests on my dark side characters. Something just feels right about accepting the power that accepting anger brings.

Which Republic characters do you want to kill? Is it basically "just Satele"? Because she's the only important Jedi NPC left in the story at this point.

 

Jaric Kaedan and Orgus Din are dead. Most of the rest - including all the plagued Jedi Masters from Jedi Consular Act 1, the strike team from Jedi Knight Act 2 and Syo Bakarn - are possibly dead, depending on the player's choices, so they can't appear again except in class-specific missions.

There's quite a few more that are featured in Flashpoints and such, most of the losses you name happen during THE REPUBLIC STORIES, they're not killed by the Imperial players who never meet them and mostly only during dark side choices which are unlikely to have been taken. This is therefore a non argument.

Satele is just the most glaring example. She's been the counter part of !3! Imperial characters, all three wind up dead, Marr even completely unnecessary. Two of them are killed by the Republic, one is pretty celebrated as big victory (Kilran).

If they weren't willing to kill of Satele to tell the same story for the Imp side, they shouldn't have used her at all these time, or they should stop killing off any Imperial char players get attached to and invested in to pander to the Republic side or for no reason at all.

Other major Republic characters are a mix of non-combatants, military generals and spies who are much less likely to end up as a boss fight in a mission or flashpoint. The Empire happens to be led by Sith, and it's nobody's fault but their own that they're so prone to committing suicide by hero.

Kilran was Grand Moff, he had no business being there in person either, it happened anyway. The rest is just defending Biowares story writing, nothing happens because "Sith and Jedi", it happens because Bioware decides it happens that way and they're at least story wise up untill KOTFE extremly biased towards one side.

The Republic only killed a few Dark Councillors, though. Several of them were killed by their own side (and there are a bunch we're not sure are dead).

The Republic kills characters the Imperial side got to know and worked with all the damn time, Malgus, Kilran, Darth Lachris etc. These were people which were part of BOTH SIDES stories, not exclusive to one side. Having nearly finished Rep side now, I can't remember a single high profile NPC I worked with and grew attached to that I got to kill on an Imp char.

If any of them die, they do so during the Republic stories, not as feel good fodder for the Imperials.

y'all realize that the empire loses, right?

That has what to do with this? If anything the fact that the Empire eventually dissolves makes casting them as the weaker side that constantly loses all that much LESS anticlimatic. It turns from a story of two equal sides clashing, or the mighty evil Empire eventually being toppled to the side we all know will end up winning just kicking the underdog till it finally dies.

It also doesn't explain why they don't go through the effort of building up chars the way they did build up Kilran, Malgus etc just to kill them off and why all chars the Imperials get to kill are specifically conjured up for them and never shown at all on Republic side, while the Republic gets to kill chars the Imperial side has interacted with and got to known for quite some time.

Satele is just the most egrious example, she should've died by all accounts long ago, struck down by the Imperial players. Her role in some flashpoints as antagonist becomes just irritating and annoying seen how you never to to shove her own words down her throat, unlike Kilran who gets killed off summarily.

But, -Marauder-...

Any Sith worth his/her salt would never get attached to those NPCs in power... They would want to kill those NPCs and take their place

Bounty Hunters should care less about who's in charge so long as they are getting paid

And the Imperial Agent...

Just sayin'...

Now I'm just itching for Satele to die since the Imperials have lost everyone cool on their side.

Satele is too Iconic to die, but I'd settle for Saresh. Also, I count only Marr, since the others were not cool.

In about 4000 years.

To rise again.

ps. To account for republic characters that have perished at the hands of imperial characters, I'll start with Dorian Janarus, the previous supreme chancellor who was dispatched (or captured) by bounty hunter in the class story.

No, much sooner than than. It's only about 3300 til the original trilogy, the republic reigns supreme and most people have never even heard of the Sith.

Even the Republic is due for a great societal fall during that time, though.

No, much sooner than than. It's only about 3300 til the original trilogy, the republic reigns supreme and most people have never even heard of the Sith.

Lets not forget that empire is reinstated in ep.3 and republic fully disbanded in ep.4

y'all realize that the empire loses, right?

You do realise that, before losing, the Empire gets to run the galaxy and oppress it... and that the Republic in the prequels uses the logo of the Sith Empire, not the Republic, right?

I think that, if the writers were any good, the Republic should face defeat. And the Empire, collapse unto itself once without an enemy to keep it together.

There's quite a few more that are featured in Flashpoints and such, most of the losses you name happen during THE REPUBLIC STORIES, they're not killed by the Imperial players who never meet them and mostly only during dark side choices which are unlikely to have been taken. This is therefore a non argument.

I don't know what argument you think I'm making here. I'm saying that many of the memorable Republic characters who might have later appeared and died in Imperial missions couldn't do so because they may be already dead. Do you disagree with that?

Satele is just the most glaring example. She's been the counter part of !3! Imperial characters, all three wind up dead, Marr even completely unnecessary. Two of them are killed by the Republic, one is pretty celebrated as big victory (Kilran).

Is number 3 Malgus? Imperial players can kill him too. Because he betrayed them. Because that's what Sith do.

If they weren't willing to kill of Satele to tell the same story for the Imp side [...]

What same story? You want Satele to betray the Republic and form her own breakaway faction? Or to force a fight to the death out of pride? The only story role Satele could have taken from one of her Sith "counterparts" would be to defy Valkorion and be killed by him, and since it's obvious that you and a few others would have cheered at that, it clearly wouldn't have had the impact required by the story.

[...] or they should stop killing off any Imperial char players get attached to and invested in to pander to the Republic side or for no reason at all.

You say that all the NPCs who die in the course of the Republic stories don't count as losses because Imperial players don't kill them, yet the attachments are still there. So is this about attachment to the characters, or about some concept of "fairness" between the two "sides", or what?

Kilran was Grand Moff, he had no business being there in person either, it happened anyway.

The rest is just defending Biowares story writing, nothing happens because "Sith and Jedi", it happens because Bioware decides it happens that way and they're at least story wise up untill KOTFE extremly biased towards one side.

I'm not sure I follow. Nothing happens in a story unless the writers make it so, but what they write can still be in character or out of character, consistent or inconsistent with what has come before. The way the Empire is written is in character and consistent, since the Empire's leaders are mostly crazy and/or stupid, and that is not plot contrivance. The Sith collectively are ideologically committed to craziness and stupidity.

The Republic kills characters the Imperial side got to know and worked with all the damn time, Malgus, Kilran, Darth Lachris etc. These were people which were part of BOTH SIDES stories, not exclusive to one side. Having nearly finished Rep side now, I can't remember a single high profile NPC I worked with and grew attached to that I got to kill on an Imp char.

 

If any of them die, they do so during the Republic stories, not as feel good fodder for the Imperials.

Again, Empire players kill Malgus too. What would the equivalent be of killing Lachris? Saresh, as then-governor of Taris? She's not a combatant. Are you asking to be allowed to execute a helpless politician - who in that case would never have become Chancellor, with all that entails - as "feel good fodder"?

Someone above already mentioned Jaric Kaedan. He's your single one. If you say that you didn't get attached to him, then... I can't help you with that, sorry.

That has what to do with this? If anything the fact that the Empire eventually dissolves makes casting them as the weaker side that constantly loses all that much LESS anticlimatic. It turns from a story of two equal sides clashing, or the mighty evil Empire eventually being toppled to the side we all know will end up winning just kicking the underdog till it finally dies.

Right up until the end of Act 3, the Empire is attacking and the Republic is defending. Belsavis is a Republic world. Corellia is a Republic world. Balmorra and Alderaan are former Republic worlds.

All of that is added on top of the Great Galactic War where the Empire enslaved entire worlds, sacked Coruscant, murdered the last Supreme Chancellor and destroyed the Jedi Temple.

Your perception that the writers have made the Empire seem like some kind of harmless underdog is... disputable.

It also doesn't explain why they don't go through the effort of building up chars the way they did build up Kilran, Malgus etc just to kill them off [...]

Because they were being built up as villains. Their story arcs ended in defeat.

[...] and why all chars the Imperials get to kill are specifically conjured up for them and never shown at all on Republic side, while the Republic gets to kill chars the Imperial side has interacted with and got to known for quite some time.

I'm going to suggest some combination of "it just worked out that way" and "mass-murdering slavers from a bloodthirsty warrior cult are pretty much fair game".

Satele is just the most egrious example, she should've died by all accounts long ago, struck down by the Imperial players. Her role in some flashpoints as antagonist becomes just irritating and annoying seen how you never to to shove her own words down her throat, unlike Kilran who gets killed off summarily.

This appears to be quite personal for you at this point.