TL;DR - Hard Enrage Timers are poor game design, and do not show any of the creativity that Bioware is capable of.

 

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Fight mechanics are a very good test of a game company's creativity. No one wants to do encounters over and over ad nauseum with a couple tank-and-spank/taunt after 5 stacks/spread out for the AoE/kill adds simple mechanics. And yet, that is all that Bioware has presented to us.

 

Worse than that, rather than at least show the originality of designing fight mechanics hinted at in early interviews, we are stuck with one of the single worst design mechanics ever invented: hard enrage timers. Now, some people may not be familiar with the term or its counterpart, so allow me to explain:

 

-Hard Enrage Timer: This is fairly simple; at a certain time interval (IE; five minutes after fight begins) a boss will automatically wipe the raid, either via a massive damage AoE or similar mechanic, such as one-shot one-kill attack power.

 

-Soft Enrage Timer: Unlike a hard enrage, a soft enrage is a mechanic which is meant to overwhelm a raid group, but not kill them instantly. Soft enrage timers do not necessarily have to be something that happens at a certain point in the fight, but can happen throughout the entire encounter, and simply become too large to mitigate.

 

Fights need some kind of DPS requirement, this fact is unavoidable. However, simply wiping a raid at a set time interval is unimaginative and BORING. If Bioware has shown one thing, it is that they have the creative potential to make one of the best raiding games on the market today. However, this one mechanic has provided their design team with a lazy workaround to providing a gear check to their game, which in turn has nothing short of killed the need for fights that are interesting and memorable.

 

If you need inspiration on what soft enrage timers should be like, look to Rift. That is one aspect that they have done very, very well. Even in the fights with hard enrages, they took steps to ensure that those hard enrages were not so cut and dry as "kill him before X minutes or die".

 

Like most people here, I've been an avid Bioware fan for a long, long time. But lately, the content that they've shelled out has all but destroyed the sense of customer loyalty I felt towards them, nothing more so than endgame raids in SWTOR--not in terms of difficulty, but in the sense that they are so poorly thought out in terms of creativity. Early interviews with the Bioware team mentioned that they wanted to move away from the overused raid models where twenty people bashed on a giant monster. They wanted to design fights that would feel engaging and bring back the idea that they were epic battles, not just a bunch of guys beating up one thing.

 

Overall, I'm really starting to wish that Bioware made KOTOR3 instead of wasting six years hyping up a mediocre MMO, because I'm damn well loving the storyline, but that's approximately where it stops.

+1.

 

Just adding hp and damage and enrage timers to raise the level of raiding through hard modes is a pretty poor effort.

+1

 

I agree, I wouldn't mind a soft enrage, since that make sense, but to be instantaneously wiped for being ten seconds late is ridiculous.

Enrage timers wouldn't be so bad if they would correct the loot bug in Hard Modes. Not being rewarded with gear on bosses (even ones you haven't wiped on) just makes the enrage timers make you want to rage with the boss.

 

I thought ragers were ridiculous in League of Legends, but the beta quality of this game is slowly bringing me to the rage point each day I play.

Haven't gotten to the point where I can run these kind of ops/flashpoints but reading about the enrage mechanics really makes me rage. How can bioware be such huge amateurs that not only can't they make the bosses work like intended but also adding in such ridiculous enrage timers to hide their own inability to make decent boss fights.

 

Disgusting from a customers point of view!

Haven't gotten to the point where I can run these kind of ops/flashpoints but reading about the enrage mechanics really makes me rage. How can bioware be such huge amateurs that not only can't they make the bosses work like intended but also adding in such ridiculous enrage timers to hide their own inability to make decent boss fights.

 

Disgusting from a customers point of view!

 

A lot of the anger is just frustration being vented. I'm sure they'll fix things...it's just a matter of how long will it take?

 

What I find kind of disappointing is that they had a fairly long beta testing phase and the beta testers just weren't given the tools to sort out some of the Operations and Flashpoint tunings. As much as people may hate or love damage/healing meters, they actually serve a purpose when used properly. In terms of the current state of the game, people can't specifically pinpoint problems with the Hard Mode FPs and Operations except in broad terms like it's either too easy or too hard. There are glaring issues as people have pointed out with the last fight in the Foundry where you just get damaged for something like 3x the health that an average tank might have.

 

Overall, the end game experience doesn't seem very consistent. If frustration starts to set in and you're at end game, I would highly recommend playing a different base class or trying out the other faction's story line. It's probably going to be a bumpy ride for awhile.

You know the definition of hard enrage, but you don't know how it applies to the game? There are very few hard enrages - They just get a damage buff, and many times I've been able to heal our group through the enrage.

 

What is the difference between a hard and soft enrage in terms of fight outcome? Both result in your raid wiping if you can't execute the fight quickly enough. Whether one is more creative (whatever arbitrary definition you have for creative in this context...) is irrelevant. Just because a mechanic isn't needlessly convoluted doesn't mean it is poor design.

Even after a boss enrages, it is still possible to continue for some time. Our tank can hold an enraged boss for a while. Enrages are there for a reason. If you expect to bring a bunch of under-geared and under-performing dps to a raid encounter and take your sweet time, you should find out quickly that you won't. Bad dps puts a lot of burden on good tanks and healers.

i dont think it's timed... i think it's HP based.

Pretty sure it is timed.... Maybe some bosses have a time and HP based enrage timer, but I have not seen them and realised hat mechanic.

Honestly, the purpose for enrages is a necessary evil. Yeah, it sucks getting 10 seconds away. I've been there so many times in so many MMOs that have hard enrages. But that just means we gotta step up our game and try again. Now sure, it may not be tuned very well yet, and that IS Bioware's fault. But when it is tuned and people are able to meet the timers in a challenging yet doable fashion, then it's not Bioware's fault. It's your group's fault.

 

It's not a lack of creativity. It's a matter of necessity to make sure that people don't just blast through content they shouldn't be doing. Hard modes are all about being able to survive AND push the max amount of damage, healing, and mitigation possible in a given fight. Sometimes that's adding more mechanics. Sometimes that 's a hard enrage. Sometimes, all it takes is making the boss hit harder. It's all about the fight, really.

I think they need a little more time before we should say that they're being unimaginative. I think at this stage they're getting a feel for what the community is capable of. I think future raids will bring more interesting fights. Or at least, if Bioware knows what's best for the success of their game, they will.

A lot of reading comprehension fail in this thread. The OP is not about enrages in general, but specifically hard enrages.

What is the difference between a hard and soft enrage in terms of fight outcome? Both result in your raid wiping if you can't execute the fight quickly enough. Whether one is more creative (whatever arbitrary definition you have for creative in this context...) is irrelevant. Just because a mechanic isn't needlessly convoluted doesn't mean it is poor design.

 

I agree with this. A soft enrage is just a hard enrage that happens gradually. What difference does it make, really? Why is one more "creative" than the other?

 

I prefer a hard enrage personally because it provides a very specific time frame for DPS to do their job. When you have a soft enrage, it's harder to pinpoint exactly what went wrong when you wipe -- did too much time pass, or are the healers not keeping up with the gradual increase in damage, or is the tank not mitigating enough damage? Hitting a hard enrage states quite clearly that the DPS was too slow (assuming they're all still alive).

 

I'd wager most people who hate hard enrage timers are weak DPS players who like to blame their failure on healers.

Enrages period are a lazy way to make a fight "hard".

I agree with this. A soft enrage is just a hard enrage that happens gradually. What difference does it make, really? Why is one more "creative" than the other?

 

I prefer a hard enrage personally because it provides a very specific time frame for DPS to do their job. When you have a soft enrage, it's harder to pinpoint exactly what went wrong when you wipe -- did too much time pass, or are the healers not keeping up with the gradual increase in damage, or is the tank not mitigating enough damage? Hitting a hard enrage states quite clearly that the DPS was too slow (assuming they're all still alive).

I'd wager most people who hate soft enrages are weak theorycrafters who can't figure out how an encounter went.

I kid.

 

A soft enrage is better because it can be solved in more ways than "bring more deeps lol".

There are no hard enrages in any of the republic side HM flashpoints.

 

I actually like the enrages. I'm a tank and I have a real struggle with threat. The enrages (they are definitely all time based) require my dps to open up early and that, in turn, forces me to bring my "A" game to every fight. There are some fights where we'd have prefered a more conservative strategy (like the implant guy in Maelstrom), but we just can't afford it because of the enrage timer. I have to do my very best job at building threat to enable dps.

 

I think it's very good and seems balanced in a very fair, but difficult way.

You know the definition of hard enrage, but you don't know how it applies to the game? There are very few hard enrages - They just get a damage buff, and many times I've been able to heal our group through the enrage.

 

That's a hard enrage. It's when the boss gains a massive damage boost after a certain amount of time. A soft enrage would be something like Chimeran in WoW: Cataclysm - everyone becomes unhealable in the last phase. It's still a dps race, but it's much more imaginative than if Blizzard were to just stick a timer on him that caused him to instantly explode the raid, like many of the hard enrages in SWTOR.

 

That said, I'm fine with hard enrages, so long as we're given periodic warnings of the time remaining and we have combat logs and UI mods. If Bioware doesn't want people to rely on mods like DBM and Recount to WoW, they should remove hard enrages.

Edited December 31, 2011 by Lord_Itharius

There are no hard enrages in any of the republic side HM flashpoints.

 

I actually like the enrages. I'm a tank and I have a real struggle with threat. The enrages (they are definitely all time based) require my dps to open up early and that, in turn, forces me to bring my "A" game to every fight. There are some fights where we'd have prefered a more conservative strategy (like the implant guy in Maelstrom), but we just can't afford it because of the enrage timer. I have to do my very best job at building threat to enable dps.

 

I think it's very good and seems balanced in a very fair, but difficult way.

 

You're simply wrong. I don't know how else to put it. Look at the enemy buffs next time you do a hard mode instance.

There are no hard enrages in any of the republic side HM flashpoints.

 

I actually like the enrages. I'm a tank and I have a real struggle with threat. The enrages (they are definitely all time based) require my dps to open up early and that, in turn, forces me to bring my "A" game to every fight. There are some fights where we'd have prefered a more conservative strategy (like the implant guy in Maelstrom), but we just can't afford it because of the enrage timer. I have to do my very best job at building threat to enable dps.

 

I think it's very good and seems balanced in a very fair, but difficult way.

 

Here's what happened in my group. The tank's threat wasn't very good, so I couldn't go full dps and we hit the enrage on every boss (I was pulling even with guard on me). We had to quit the instance because we couldn't get past one boss with a very hard enrage. The tank couldn't tell easily he was losing aggro since there's no meters or even target of target so never knew when to taunt and I'd die if I went full out. There wasn't anything we were doing wrong, we just couldn't hit the dps number (we weren't even particularly close like within a tank cooldown).

 

When it's all about dps and there's no way to evaluate your dps, what are you supposed to do?

Edited December 31, 2011 by Nellise

As you gear up, it gets a little easier. As far as the tank losing threat, it's a tough thing for sure. I struggle with it too, but I think that's a good thing. When I've had threat issues, the answer for us has been to adjust our strategy to allow me to use my full rotation and I just have to bring my "A" game.

 

As for the hard enrage debate. Double damage is not insta-wipe. As my HM team has geared up we have almost always hit enrages on some bosses and we still get the kills. I pop cooldowns and the healer just works real hard. We can't keep it up for long, but in our earlier days we've had to go 20 seconds before on bosses and still finished them with no deaths.

 

20 seconds of enrage, taking damage, and no deaths is definitely not a hard enrage.

bring good ranged dps - and you wont have this problem

Hard enrages are simply a dps check. If you wipe, then you are missing some dps somewhere. Either a CDs miss used or a little bit more dmg from everyone. Either way it is saying that you are undergeared or just barely there. It is not lazy, it is a player checking system.

 

A soft enrage on the other hand is not overly interesting, but can be on WoW fights like ICC's Prof. Putricide where the goo fills the room till it overwelms ppl. It adds a feeling of a rushed kill or a "oh **** we need to kill him fast or we will die" type of game play.

 

Both are fine, it is just the frequency of use is massive atm because of the devs trying to feel out the players.

I dunno, I like enrages, both hard and soft. As a DPS main, they tell me I need to do my job better.

 

Though, I can understand that without a combat log and some of the other UI issues TOR has, hard enrages are a bit trickier.

I think they need a little more time before we should say that they're being unimaginative. I think at this stage they're getting a feel for what the community is capable of. I think future raids will bring more interesting fights. Or at least, if Bioware knows what's best for the success of their game, they will.

 

I'd say this.

 

First tier in new MMO *needs* to be relatively simple.

 

And I don't personally have anything against enrage timers, especially hard. (they are basically the same thing except you put more pressure on tanks and healers in soft timers which imo sucks) They are there to tell your dps that this is the time limit and if your dps isn't up to par then you don't deserve the loot. This is how it should be, there is absolutely no need for handhelding for dps players. They need to do their part too.