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The Myth of the PT Jedi Guardians


Ventessel

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Are the Prequel Trilogy Jedi all they're cracked up to be?

 

The Golden Age of the Old Republic, the millenium or so after the Ruusan Reformations, saw peace and prosperity return to a galaxy that had been ravaged by almost constant warfare for centuries. During this time the Jedi Order settled in and kept the peace, acting as negotiators and mediators throughout the Republic.

 

Supposedly, this was a flourishing of the "Jedi Arts", until the beginnings of the Clone Wars. While certainly, the centuries of peaceful meditation led the Jedi to a greater understanding of the Force and its mysteries... what did they really accomplish? Peaceful introspection is the ultimate calling of the Jedi code, especially for consulars. But were the Jedi Guardians we see during the prequels really the best that the Jedi Order had ever produced? Quite doubtful.

 

For a thousand years, the Jedi did not see open warfare. In fact, the purpose of the Ruusan reforms was to demilitarize the galaxy. The Army of Light disbanded, and the conventional Republic forces were no more. What few conflicts did occur were dealt with by local planetary forces. The claims that somehow, the PT Jedi Order had perfected the arts of combat in this era are absurd. While the technical aspects of the lightsaber forms were of course still known to the Jedi, they lacked practical experience with combat. Even worse, each generation of instructors who lacked experience in warfare then trained another generation, multiplying the effects of their inexperience.

 

In the old days, starting the the Hundred Years Darkness and concluding with the Ruusan Reforms in the time of Darth Bane, lightsaber combat was not just a flourishing art. It was life or death, as force sensitive combatants fought on all sides of every war in those eras. And wars were frequent.

 

It was during these days that we saw the most rapid evolution of the lightsaber forms, rapidly expanding from the simplistic movements of Shii-Cho to incorporate the dueling form of Makashi, and so on until the time of Exar Kun, when Niman had been developed. By the days of the Jedi Civil War, Juyo was in practice, even if frowned upon by the Jedi Council.

 

In these times, any battle would involve numerous lightsaber duels. These were not artistic, complex affairs, but rather deadly contests on the field of battle. Jedi regularly fought Sith, and Dark Jedi of all stripes. Even amongst the Sith, lethal duels were extremely common, seen as both preparation for facing the Jedi and to weed out the weak among them.

 

Count Dooku lamented the way the Jedi Council had allowed dueling techniques to deteriorate by the times of the PT, and even in the times of the First Jedi Purge, Kreia warned the Jedi Exile that compared to ancient masters like Tulak Hord and Marka Ragnos, more modern Jedi were merely "children playing with toys". It is clear that during the ancient times, duelists were far more formidable than in the PT era. This is not to say that the vaunted Master Yoda did not possess vast wisdom and knowledge of the Force, but that the combat skills of the PT Jedi were not up to scratch when the Clone Wars opened up.

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You seem to be forgetting Yoda's words" "Wars not make one great".

 

What made many of the most revered Jedi of this era such was their role as "guardians of peace and justice in the old Republic". Obi-Wan, for instance, was not exactly the strongest of Jedi and even almost got sent to the AgriCorps. Still, he was the embodiment of a true Jedi.

 

Mace Windu is one notable example. Never mind maintaining the old styles of lightsaber combat---he created a style! It worked pretty well in the right hands, too. You might say "Well he's the exception that proves the rule", but he was not the only skilled duelist. Yoda was, of course, and Kit Fisto and Cin Drallig, for instance, were no pushovers.

 

It's to be expected that, as you say, peace time will bring less experience with deadly lightsaber combat, but sometimes the best skill is knowing when to use force and when there are better alternatives, and Kreia said something along these lines as well. When she compared modern Jedi to children playing with lightsabers she did not mean to say that wanton violence improves technique (and the "modern Jedi" in her days, by the way, had seen plenty of wars).

 

I probably rambled a bit, but the point is that:

 

1. There's more to being a good Jedi than combat ability.

2. Wars can make for improved techniques, but it seems they don't necessarily.

3. There were revered duelists in that era. They stood out as few probably because of the sheer amount of Jedi.

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1. There's more to being a good Jedi than combat ability.
Indeed, but the OP is talking about strictly martial skills. Sparring can only take you so far, because the rest is dependent on combat experience, where theory doesn't always apply.

2. Wars can make for improved techniques, but it seems they don't necessarily.
True enough.

3. There were revered duelists in that era. They stood out as few probably because of the sheer amount of Jedi.
I can agree with this, but we really lack a frame of reference. I mean sure, Mace Windu was one of the best duelists of his time, but how would he stand against a staple of the Old Republic era like Darth Malgus (himself very skilled with a lightsaber) or the Hero of Tython?
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You seem to be forgetting Yoda's words" "Wars not make one great".

....

1. There's more to being a good Jedi than combat ability.

2. Wars can make for improved techniques, but it seems they don't necessarily.

3. There were revered duelists in that era. They stood out as few probably because of the sheer amount of Jedi.

 

All excellent points, however, I never disagreed with Yoda's philosophy or your first point there. Jedi are not all about combat, and I think that Yoda's statement is an excellent insight into the mindset of the Jedi. They do not revere war, and unlike the Sith, do not hold combat skills in as high regard as they do other areas of expertise.

 

Kreia's statement is certainly a controversial one, and interpreted many ways. However, I think she was speaking more to the exceptional dueling abilities of the Sith Lords entombed on Korriban, as compared to current combatants. I include her statement only to counter the inevitable "newer Jedi/Sith are exponentially better than the older ones!" that seems to get brought up all the time. I like to interpret it as meaning that combat skills ebb and flow, and after the First Jedi Purge combat knowledge with lightsabers was dwindling, whereas during the days of Marka Ragnos and co. it flourished.

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I can agree with this, but we really lack a frame of reference. I mean sure, Mace Windu was one of the best duelists of his time, but how would he stand against a staple of the Old Republic era like Darth Malgus (himself very skilled with a lightsaber) or the Hero of Tython?

He very likely defeats them, perhaps even with relative ease. Lets remember this is the Jedi that defeated the most powerful Sith Lord ever to come into existence, in pure lightsaber combat - that in itself speaks volumes for how far the Jedi Order has come.

 

War is simply not good for a Jedi Order. For one, such an act of aggression draws them closer to the dark side, as beings of the light this does not strengthen them, but unbalances them and makes them weaker. Yes in the Force, but the Force is a key component of skill with the lightsaber. In times of peace Jedi can draw themselves closer to the Force through meditation, making them stronger in every respect. War also has a negative effect on teachings, do you think in a 30 year period of war there is going to be an abundance of time to train new Jedi? No, the teachings will be rushed, unfocused, with few Masters available to teach them. Lets not also forget the catastrophic effect the First Jedi Purge of the Dark Wars must have had on the Jedi and their teachings, not to mention of destruction of the Jedi Temple in the Sacking of Coruscant.

 

But why not see for yourself: PT Jedi Order possessed a great many number of powerful lightsaber duelists. For example lets compare the Jedi Council of the Old Republic with the Jedi Council of the PT era.

 

Old Republic: Atris, Vrook Lamar, Kavar, Lonna Vash, Zez-Kai Ell - remember those guys? I expect vaguely as they were never displayed to be particularly powerful or to have achieved much, that is because they were not. Only Kavar and Vrook where known to have mastered multiple forms, none mastered all of them.

 

And then we have the Jedi Council of the Great Galatic War, whose Grand Master was easily defeated by Braden, a bounty hunter, with a single shot. The other members we know little about, but the only one who seems worthy of mention was Satele Shan.

 

Prequel Trilogy: Both Mace Windu and Yoda were mastered all seven forms of lightsaber combat and Mace Windu created his own. Kenobi was one of the most esteemed swordsmen in Jedi history, mastering Soresu, Shii-Cho and Niman among others. Kit Fisto, Agen Kolar, Plo Koon and Saesee Tinn where all renowned for being master lightsaber duelists as were almost every member of the Council.

 

We can also compare Battlemasters, Cin Drallig mastered every form save Juyo/Vaapad and held his own against Darth Vader. On the other hand Jun Seros was defeated by the Grand Champion of the Great Hunt - a bounty hunter. May I take this moment to point out that Jango Fett, renowned as the best bounty hunter of his day, failed to defeat Obi-Wan Kenobi and was easily dispatched by Mace Windu.

 

Sure the Jedi High Council and Battlemasters are the best of the best, but comparing Councils of different eras does give insight into the general ability of that given era. But for the sake of argument consider the likes of:

 

Anakin Skywalker, Ashoka Tano, Dooku, Qui-Gon Jinn, Aayla Secura, Luminara Unduli - all these Jedi were exceptionally skilled in lightsaber combat. Looking at the Old Republic, there are only a handful of names that really stand out - Revan, Surik, Exar Kun, the Hero of Tython, and all but one of these learned at the feet of others, not just the Jedi.

 

If anything Kreia's quote supports the above. She compared the prowess of the old masters with that of the Old Republic Jedi, implying that the OR Jedi where far from as skilled as the old masters. Whereas she likely would have spoke quite differently if she had lived in the PT era. Let's also consider that they were Sith, which is a completely different story.

 

It is for these reasons I believe the Jedi Order of the PT era is more powerful than that of the OR era, the sheer number of exceptionally skilled duelists in that era is enough to prove that.

Edited by Beniboybling
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A Problem I see, is the fact of what is truly the measuring stick for a Jedi/Sith dueling prowess? I mean seriously what is it? In Episode 2 Anakin was easily bested by Dooku, but in Episode 3 turned around and beat him like Dooku was a Novice. Sure we have many people who stand out with a light saber, but look at Jaina Solo. Yes many hate the EU, but I think in a pure lightsaber duel, she could go toe to toe with Mace and stand a chance of winning.

 

Again without a real good measuring stick and seeing battles where we actually SEE different jedi stack up and actually fight[which will never happen] I fear we will never know which side of the question is actually right.

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A Problem I see, is the fact of what is truly the measuring stick for a Jedi/Sith dueling prowess? I mean seriously what is it? In Episode 2 Anakin was easily bested by Dooku, but in Episode 3 turned around and beat him like Dooku was a Novice. Sure we have many people who stand out with a light saber, but look at Jaina Solo. Yes many hate the EU, but I think in a pure lightsaber duel, she could go toe to toe with Mace and stand a chance of winning.

 

Again without a real good measuring stick and seeing battles where we actually SEE different jedi stack up and actually fight[which will never happen] I fear we will never know which side of the question is actually right.

Well, with our understanding of the Light Side of the Force we can understand the negative effects war has on a Jedi, we also have knowledge of how many forms said Jedi mastered, as well as the feats they accomplished. Standards like lightsaber form mastery, the Force, and say, the ability of a bounty hunter, remain the same - and it is this that we can use as a 'measuring stick'.

 

And then there's just logic. Mace Windu invented his own lightsaber form and defeated the most powerful Sith in galactic history in lightsaber combat - that in itself gives considerable weight to the lightsaber prowess of the PT Jedi Order.

Edited by Beniboybling
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He very likely defeats them, perhaps even with relative ease. Lets remember this is the Jedi that defeated the most powerful Sith Lord ever to come into existence, in pure lightsaber combat - that in itself speaks volumes for how far the Jedi Order has come.

 

War is simply not good for a Jedi Order. For one, such an act of aggression draws them closer to the dark side, as beings of the light this does not strengthen them, but unbalances them and makes them weaker. Yes in the Force, but the Force is a key component of skill with the lightsaber. In times of peace Jedi can draw themselves closer to the Force through meditation, making them stronger in every respect. War also has a negative effect on teachings, do you think in a 30 year period of war there is going to be an abundance of time to train new Jedi? No, the teachings will be rushed, unfocused, with few Masters available to teach them. Lets not also forget the catastrophic effect the First Jedi Purge of the Dark Wars must have had on the Jedi and their teachings, not to mention of destruction of the Jedi Temple in the Sacking of Coruscant.

 

But why not see for yourself: PT Jedi Order possessed a great many number of powerful lightsaber duelists. For example lets compare the Jedi Council of the Old Republic with the Jedi Council of the PT era.

 

Old Republic: Atris, Vrook Lamar, Kavar, Lonna Vash, Zez-Kai Ell - remember those guys? I expect vaguely as they were never displayed to be particularly powerful or to have achieved much, that is because they were not. Only Kavar and Vrook where known to have mastered multiple forms, none mastered all of them.

 

And then we have the Jedi Council of the Great Galatic War, whose Grand Master was easily defeated by Braden, a bounty hunter, with a single shot. The other members we know little about, but the only one who seems worthy of mention was Satele Shan.

 

Prequel Trilogy: Both Mace Windu and Yoda were mastered all seven forms of lightsaber combat and Mace Windu created his own. Kenobi was one of the most esteemed swordsmen in Jedi history, mastering Soresu, Shii-Cho and Niman among others. Kit Fisto, Agen Kolar, Plo Koon and Saesee Tinn where all renowned for being master lightsaber duelists as were almost every member of the Council.

 

We can also compare Battlemasters, Cin Drallig mastered every form save Juyo/Vaapad and held his own against Darth Vader. On the other hand Jun Seros was defeated by the Grand Champion of the Great Hunt - a bounty hunter. May I take this moment to point out that Jango Fett, renowned as the best bounty hunter of his day, failed to defeat Obi-Wan Kenobi and was easily dispatched by Mace Windu.

 

Sure the Jedi High Council and Battlemasters are the best of the best, but comparing Councils of different eras does give insight into the general ability of that given era. But for the sake of argument consider the likes of:

 

Anakin Skywalker, Ashoka Tano, Dooku, Qui-Gon Jinn, Aayla Secura, Luminara Unduli - all these Jedi were exceptionally skilled in lightsaber combat. Looking at the Old Republic, there are only a handful of names that really stand out - Revan, Surik, Exar Kun, the Hero of Tython, and all but one of these learned at the feet of others, not just the Jedi.

 

If anything Kreia's quote supports the above. She compared the prowess of the old masters with that of the Old Republic Jedi, implying that the OR Jedi where far from as skilled as the old masters. Whereas she likely would have spoke quite differently if she had lived in the PT era. Let's also consider that they were Sith, which is a completely different story.

 

It is for these reasons I believe the Jedi Order of the PT era is more powerful than that of the OR era, the sheer number of exceptionally skilled duelists in that era is enough to prove that.

 

Couldn't have said it better myself. So I won't.

 

I will say, in addition to this, that Yoda was preparing the Jedi Order for another Sith War. So they were preparing to fight the Sith, learning from the past battles and adapting new tactics.

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He very likely defeats them, perhaps even with relative ease. Lets remember this is the Jedi that defeated the most powerful Sith Lord ever to come into existence, in pure lightsaber combat - that in itself speaks volumes for how far the Jedi Order has come.

 

The duel between Sidious and Windu is not a very good measurement of combat skill. It says all over the place that a large part of Sidious' style was to draw the enemy in and let them think they had the upper hand. He had nothing to gain by killing Windu before Skywalker arrived on the scene.

 

All evidence points to Sidious drawing out their duel before allowing himself to be disarmed, knowing that he could still kill Windu with lightning if he had to, but would rather allow Skywalker to arrive and manipulate him into completing his fall to the Dark Side. So we don't know if Windu was actually skilled enough to defeat Sidious.

 

 

War is simply not good for a Jedi Order. For one, such an act of aggression draws them closer to the dark side, as beings of the light this does not strengthen them, but unbalances them and makes them weaker. Yes in the Force, but the Force is a key component of skill with the lightsaber. In times of peace Jedi can draw themselves closer to the Force through meditation, making them stronger in every respect. War also has a negative effect on teachings, do you think in a 30 year period of war there is going to be an abundance of time to train new Jedi? No, the teachings will be rushed, unfocused, with few Masters available to teach them. Lets not also forget the catastrophic effect the First Jedi Purge of the Dark Wars must have had on the Jedi and their teachings, not to mention of destruction of the Jedi Temple in the Sacking of Coruscant.

 

This all makes sense. The Jedi suffer from war, and they are not really inclined to be warriors at heart. But this does not address their combat skills, only the effects that war has on the strength of the Order as a whole.

 

While their training in the Jedi philosophy and the finer tenets of the Force would surely suffer from prolonged conflict, their combat skills would be constantly refined. With the prospect of every Jedi potentially being involved in lightsaber combat, and with experienced duelists on hand to pass on practical battlefield experience, the average Jedi in the Old Republic Era would have received excellent instruction... and more importantly, tested that instruction in actual combat.

 

But why not see for yourself: PT Jedi Order possessed a great many number of powerful lightsaber duelists. For example lets compare the Jedi Council of the Old Republic with the Jedi Council of the PT era.

 

Old Republic: Atris, Vrook Lamar, Kavar, Lonna Vash, Zez-Kai Ell - remember those guys? I expect vaguely as they were never displayed to be particularly powerful or to have achieved much, that is because they were not. Only Kavar and Vrook where known to have mastered multiple forms, none mastered all of them.

 

The Jedi Masters you list here were the last ragged survivors of a devastated order. With the exception of Kavar, none were warriors. They avoided the Mandalorian Wars and are not noted to have played an active role in the Jedi Civil War. You are correct in noting that they are a sad collection of Jedi, particularly Vrook Lamar.

 

I am not referring to the Jedi at the time of the First Jedi Purge. That was a low point for both the Jedi and the Sith. The duelists I would refer to are more along the lines of:

Kavar himself, a combatant in the MW and the JCW, he survived all the way into the First Jedi Purge. He was known to have been one of Revan's instructors, and saw countless duels during the wars.

Alek/ Darth Malak - Acknowledged as one of the greatest duelists of his day during the MW/JCW. Known to have killed numerous Mandalorians and Jedi in close combat.

Revan - Cut off Malak's jaw without being harmed. Fought Jedi, Sith, and Mandalorians extensively.

Jedi Exile - Similar pedigree, but also battled many sith assassins during the First Jedi Purge.

Bastila Shan - A noted combatant in the order during the JCW, selected to lead the strike team to capture Revan... this implies that the other Jedi thought she was pretty good in close combat.

Ulic Qel-Droma - One of the deadliest duelists in his time, fought during the Krath conflicts.

Cay Qel-Droma - A close match for his brother, Ulic, no slouch in the saber combat department.

Exar Kun - Fought and killed numerous Jedi, including the current battlemaster, Siosk-Baas. His name was feared throughout the galaxy for both his martial prowess and the damage he did to the Jedi Order.

 

And then we have the Jedi Council of the Great Galatic War, whose Grand Master was easily defeated by Braden, a bounty hunter, with a single shot. The other members we know little about, but the only one who seems worthy of mention was Satele Shan.

 

I seem to recall someone else being killed with a single shot to the back... I believe his name was Emperor Palpatine?

 

There are many Jedi during the Great Galactic War who were noted duelists. A short list should include:

Jaric Kaedan - A practitioner of Juyo, who developed his own personal style which became known as Juyo-Kos. Described as a living weapon, an embodiment of the Force, when he fought (which was often, the GGW lasted 28 years or so). He was skilled enough to capture (not kill, but to capture) the Dread Masters, as well as engaging in possibly thousands of individual combats.

 

Orgus Din - Very weak in the Force, Din worked exceptionally hard on his saber skills to compensate (also demonstrating that strength in the Force and skill in combat are mostly unrelated). Din was respected as a dangerous foe, and also participated in numerous battles, including surviving the Sacking of Coruscant.

 

Kiwiiks - Another exceptional combatant, she was known to have repeated fought against hopeless odds and emerged victorious. Although critically wounded in the battle of Tatooine, she was still one of the best warriors in the Jedi Order.

 

Setele Shan - Obviously a tremendously talented duelist, she fought Darth Malgus at least once and was quite skilled with her double bladed lightsaber (a skill considered lost by the time of the PT Jedi). There's also the 28 year war she helped wage against an army of Sith.

 

 

Prequel Trilogy: Both Mace Windu and Yoda were mastered all seven forms of lightsaber combat and Mace Windu created his own. Kenobi was one of the most esteemed swordsmen in Jedi history, mastering Soresu, Shii-Cho and Niman among others. Kit Fisto, Agen Kolar, Plo Koon and Saesee Tinn where all renowned for being master lightsaber duelists as were almost every member of the Council.

 

I see little to no evidence suggesting that many of these Jedi were particularly experienced with or skilled in lightsaber combat. Kenobi, Windu, and Yoda are all clear candidates for being skilled warriors, the others are not.

 

Mastery of Shii-Cho? That speaks to an academic study of combat, not a practical one. Shii-Cho was rapidly eclipsed by Makashi as a dueling technique, and really only provided some of the footwork for later forms. That Kit Fisto spent his time mastering this form suggests that he did not face a truly potent threat to his life very often.

 

Furthermore, the fact that Mace Windu was one of the first Jedi in almost a thousand years to begin seriously studying and improving upon Juyo (a form which was still being worked on before Ruusan) also indicates the lack of a need for deadly saber skills amongst the Jedi Order.

 

The fact that three of the few survivors of the Jedi Purge were known practitioners of Juyo, alongside many Jedi in the Great Galactic War, seems to be one of the clearest signs that those were indeed dangerous times that demanded exceptional dueling skills to survive. If the Jedi could afford to let a form often called "The Killing Form" languish for a thousand years, they were clearly not being pressed to the limits of their capabilities as fighters. Not that that was a bad thing, it sure looked like they could have used a break after all that exhausting conflict.

 

We can also compare Battlemasters, Cin Drallig mastered every form save Juyo/Vaapad and held his own against Darth Vader. On the other hand Jun Seros was defeated by the Grand Champion of the Great Hunt - a bounty hunter. May I take this moment to point out that Jango Fett, renowned as the best bounty hunter of his day, failed to defeat Obi-Wan Kenobi and was easily dispatched by Mace Windu.

 

Cin Drallig does not seem to have a great deal of practical combat experience. The fact that Vader killed him despite his supposed mastery of lightsaber combat speaks volumes to the value of Vader's battlefield experience during the Clone Wars. Vader knew how to kill, and he fought to win. Master Drallig was an academic instructor, and while certainly knowledgeable ABOUT dueling, he was not necessarily a good duelist himself.

 

As for the Grand Champion killing Seros, that is one individual combat. From that we can infer that cunning, well-armed bounty hunters can still kill Jedi, even experienced ones. But we knew that, didn't we?

 

Jango Fett got trapped in melee combat with Windu because his jetpack malfunctioned. Strange... his son also died that way. Sometimes you roll the dice and lose badly. The fight between him and Kenobi was less of a lethal duel and more, Kenobi wanted to capture Fett, Fett played a lot of tricks and fought well. Again, there is a world of difference in fighting to kill and trying to apprehend.

 

We see this when Windu simply charges down Fett and decapitates him, versus when he confronts Sidious and demands that the Sith Lord surrender for trial.

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You make good points, but you do not fully take into account the damaging effects that war has on a Jedi Order and there abilities in combat. And it does effect there combat skills, like I said war encourages powerful emotions such as anger and hate, and it also clouds vision and makes it difficult for a Jedi to focus himself. For a light sided Jedi this harms he connection to the Force, unbalances him, and so negatively effects his ability to wield a lightsaber.

 

What's more, the Jedi would not have received 'excellent instruction'. Yes there are plenty of experienced, battle hardened lightsaber masters out there, but that's just it - their out there, on the frontlines fighting the Sith, where they're prowess in battle and skills with the lightsaber are needed. They don't have the time to train padawans and pass down their skills, because their too busy fighting a war, or worse, their dead.

 

Think how many Jedi must have been killed during the Great Galactic War, the Great Sith War, the Mandalorian Wars, the Jedi Civil War, and the First Jedi Purge. Most of them would have been Knights, not Consulars. Thousands of teachers lost, and their teachings with them. But surely they can simply learn from the great holocrons? No, at least not in the period of the Old Republic when the Jedi Temple was destroyed and I expect many holocrons with it. We should especially consider the effects of the First Jedi Purge, and entire order was exterminated - Meetra had to start from scratch and that must have had a negative effect on quality of teaching.

 

We also have to consider that many lightsabers forms had either not been invented until the later Old Republic period or had been invented around the time of the Mandalorian Wars and not yet been refined and honed. What's more a practitioner of Vaapaad would have utterly confused a Jedi of the Old Republic who would have been entirely unfamiliar with it. And concerning what Kreia said, that the Sith Masters of old would were far superior in terms of lightsaber combat than the OR is very demeaning, as few forms had been invented in that period.

 

Also:

 

 

  • Its actually G-Canon that Windu defeated Sidious in that battle, purely in lightsaber combat however - I'm sure Sidious would have won by applying force lightning, but that's irrelevant as we are looking at lightsaber combat.
     
     
  • The Jedi Masters I listed were on the Jedi High Council before and during the Mandalorian Wars and the Dark Wars. No they were not warriors, but shouldn't they have been? If were only considering those dedicated warriors of the Jedi Order then your argument falls apart because its clear from this that the number of powerful warriors in the Jedi Order were few if the Jedi High Council lack any distinctive prowess. And Vrook mastered more forms than any of them, so if he's weak then, well...
     
     
  • The Jedi you refer to are a smattering of exceptional few from a centuries long period that is the Old Republic, I can match that number and triple it just by naming the exceptionally skilled Jedi of the PT era over 3 years. I mean lets just consider for a moment that the PT Order produced some of the most exceptional lightsaber duelists in galactic history - Dooku, Obi-Wan, Anakin, Yoda, Windu, Qui-Gon. Also you base their abilities on their experience in war, but in order to accept that as a point in their favour I would have to accept your original premise, which I do not. What's more the likes of Malak, Revan and Kun only came into their own once they had fallen to the dark side. And Meetra only under the tutelage of Kreia - a Sith Lord. It seems they owe much of their prowess to the dark side.
     
     
  • While Shii-Cho does have significant draw backs, Kit Fisto nonetheless managed to overcome these and prove formidable in combat. He survived the entirety of the Clone Wars and battled deadly adversaries such as General Grievous whom he would arguably have been able to defeat if Grievous hadn't summoned his magnaguard lackeys, and survived the longest (excluding Windu) against Sidious.
     
     
  • The Grand Master I spoke of was not 'shot in the back' - he actually moved to arrest Braden (he may have even drawn his lightsaber) and Braden simply buried a rocket in his face - the Grand Master of the Jedi Order, dead in one shot.
     
     
  • Jaric Kaedan seems to have mastered only one form, which already puts him below most members of the PT Jedi High Council along with several other masters.
     
     
  • Those Jedi masters on the Jedi Council all mastered several forms and where considered battlemasters of the Jedi Order and many some of the best in Jedi history - look them up on Wookieepedia and you'll see.
     
     
  • You make good points about Juyo, but lets remember that many Jedi steered clear of it not because they were languishing in peace, but because it drew too close to the dark side. The fact that any Jedi improved and developed it, no matter after how long, is a testament in itself.
     
     
  • What you said about Cin Drallig is based on speculation. There are other possible reasons for his defeat, the fact that Anakin was the Chosen One and immensely skilled with the lightsaber, and that he had embraced the dark side making him stronger, he likely caught Drallig by suprise and finally - plot armour.
     
     
  • And concerning Jun Seros, we are talking about the Battlemaster of the Jedi Order whom by your argument, would have become exceptionally more skilled do to experience in war - and yet he was killed by a Bounty Hunter with no hidden strings attached. Perhaps it was Seros' arrogance blinding him that led to his defeat, but that was likely a product of war.
     
     
  • And I'll admit, there are a lot of other factors concerning Jango Fett.
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The duel between Sidious and Windu is not a very good measurement of combat skill. It says all over the place that a large part of Sidious' style was to draw the enemy in and let them think they had the upper hand. He had nothing to gain by killing Windu before Skywalker arrived on the scene.

 

All evidence points to Sidious drawing out their duel before allowing himself to be disarmed, knowing that he could still kill Windu with lightning if he had to, but would rather allow Skywalker to arrive and manipulate him into completing his fall to the Dark Side. So we don't know if Windu was actually skilled enough to defeat Sidious.

 

They actually fought at a stalemate.

 

Vaapad made him an open channel, half of a superconducting loop completed by the shadow; they became a standing wave of battle that expanded into every cubic centimeter of the Chancellor's office. There was no scrap of carpet nor shred of chair that might not at any second disintegrate in flares of red or purple; lampstands became brief shields, sliced into segments that whirled through the air; couches became terrain to be climbed for advantage or overleapt in retreat. But there was still only the cycle of power, the endless loop, no wound taken on either side, not even the possibility of fatigue.

Impasse.

--Taken from Revenge of the Sith

 

Windu only won after exploiting a fear from Sidious(when really it was coming from Anakin.)

 

He could feel the end of this battle approaching, and so could the blur of Sith he faced; in the Force, the shadow had become a pulsar of fear. Easily, almost effortlessly, he turned the shadow's fear into a weapon: he angled the battle to bring them both out onto the window ledge. Out in the wind. Out with the lightning. Out on a rain-slicked ledge above a half-kilometer drop. Out where the shadow's fear made it hesitate. Out where the shadow's fear turned some of its Force-powered speed into a Force-powered grip on the slippery permacrete.

 

"For all your power, you are no Jedi. All you are, my lord," Mace said evenly, staring past his blade, "is under arrest."

"Do you see, Anakin? Do you?" Palpatine's voice once again had the broken cadence of a frightened old man's. "Didn't I warn you of the Jedi and their treason?"

"Save your twisted words, my lord. There are no politicians here. The Sith will never regain control of the Republic. It's over. You've lost." Mace leveled his blade. "You lost for the same reason the Sith always lose: defeated by your own fear."

Palpatine lifted his head. His eyes smoked with hate. "Fool," he said. He lifted his arms, his robes of office spreading wide into raptor's wings, his hands hooking into talons.

"Fool!" His voice was a shout of thunder. "Do you think the fear you feel is mine?"

 

Still though Windu did win against Sidious in saber combat, it wasn't until Anakin's fear came into the situation.

Edited by Wolfninjajedi
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He very likely defeats them, perhaps even with relative ease. Lets remember this is the Jedi that defeated the most powerful Sith Lord ever to come into existence, in pure lightsaber combat - that in itself speaks volumes for how far the Jedi Order has come.

 

Isn't the general consensus that Palpatine was playing for time so Anakin could arrive? I mean, Yoda was IIRC described as the best duelist in the Order and he couldn't beat Palpatine.

 

Old Republic: Atris, Vrook Lamar, Kavar, Lonna Vash, Zez-Kai Ell - remember those guys? I expect vaguely as they were never displayed to be particularly powerful or to have achieved much, that is because they were not. Only Kavar and Vrook where known to have mastered multiple forms, none mastered all of them.

 

And then we have the Jedi Council of the Great Galatic War, whose Grand Master was easily defeated by Braden, a bounty hunter, with a single shot. The other members we know little about, but the only one who seems worthy of mention was Satele Shan.

 

Prequel Trilogy: Both Mace Windu and Yoda were mastered all seven forms of lightsaber combat and Mace Windu created his own. Kenobi was one of the most esteemed swordsmen in Jedi history, mastering Soresu, Shii-Cho and Niman among others. Kit Fisto, Agen Kolar, Plo Koon and Saesee Tinn where all renowned for being master lightsaber duelists as were almost every member of the Council.

 

I'd be wary about drawing conclusions from a character performance in a video game where they have to fight the PC :p Let's not forget that countless Jedi, including great masters of the Order, were slaughtered en masse by ordinary clone troopers.

 

I really feel bad for Kit Fisto, given his appalling 'stand there and squeal like a stuck pick' death at Palpatine's hands after putting up less of a fight than the younglings in the Temple.

Edited by jovianus
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I simply do not see any evidence that war damages a Jedi's combat skills. While Force sensitivity heightens the Jedi's reflexes and awareness of their weapon, the actual strength of that connection is not tied to their abilities with a lightsaber. I think this is rather clear also when Yoda and Dooku are having their little force showdown, and realize that they are at an impasse. They then resort to lightsabers, a wholly different arena.

 

The instructors during these times of war would have most likely had combat experience. As a lot of information regarding particular Jedi is rather sketchy, we can only infer things about how the Jedi were trained, and by whom. Since it is common for soldiers to rotate in and out of combat in order to keep them from burning out, we can only imagine that many Jedi must have done something similar during periods of sustained conflict.

 

In between these periods of sustained conflict, the Jedi who had fought in the war would have been instructing the newer generations, passing on their practical combat knowledge. Naturally, the First Jedi Purge would have seriously hindered the education of future Jedi. But with someone like the Jedi Exile (an extremely experienced warrior) to begin their training once more, they would have a good starting point. I would also point out that Luke Skywalker was in a very similar position following the Dark Times, and that he was able to train some extremely accomplished duelists.

 

While speaking of the Jedi Exile, it is true that she developed greater prowess and understanding of the Force while under Kreia's tutelage, she was already a seasoned combatant after the Mandalorian Wars. Also, it is difficult to think of ANY Jedi who would not benefit from her training. (And a good portion of the growth we see in KotOR II is simply the exile relearning old talents, polishing up rusty skills, so to speak).

 

Yes, Malak, Revan, and Exar Kun were noted duelists who fell to the Dark Side. However, this is likely one part hubris (Anakin Skywalker was also one of the foremost duelists in his time, who fell in large part to his arrogance and thirst for more power). I suppose this ties into the age old question asked by Luke, "Is the Dark Side stronger?" I won't attempt to answer that here, other than to say that Sith tend to be more formidable warriors simply due to their mindset and concentration on combat.

 

To say that Jaric Kaedan was a lesser duelist because of his focus on one style is a rather arbitrary statement. If anything, his vast experience with combat seems to have taught him that Juyo was the most effective form, leading him to specialize in it (much as Mace Windu did in his own age). Nowhere does it say that he did not learn the other forms, just that he did not spend as much time studying them. There seems to be a concept that "mastering all seven forms" confers a particular advantage on a swordsman, however, there is little evidence to suggest this.

 

Case in point, Cin Drallig. Vader did not take him by surprise at all, in fact it was the closest thing to a formal duel you could probably ask for. Cin Drallig was alerted to the approaching troops of the 501st Legion, and organized what Jedi were on hand to defend the temple. Vader sought out Cin Drallig and killed his apprentices in front of him before engaging Master Drallig and defeating him handily.

 

Another point, Master Kenobi. You've acknowledged him as one of the foremost swordsmen of the Jedi order, and yet he specialized in Soresu (with a dash of Ataru thrown in). Likewise, Dooku favored Makashi almost exclusively and was able to go toe to toe with Yoda (a student of every form, but mainly a practitioner of Ataru).

 

This isn't terribly relevant, but Kit Fisto's feat of "surviving briefly against Sidious" is less a product of his skill with a lightsaber and more due to the fact that Sidious just killed the other two Jedi first. He had a chance to raise his guard while Sidious dispatched his companions, but barely managed one or two parries. There are very few good things to say about his decision to "master" Shii-Cho.

 

I'm somewhat divided on the subject of the Jedi Master killed by the bounty hunter. You could make the case that the Grand Champion of the Great Hunt is rather an extraordinary case, seeing as he was able to kill an almost absurd number of creatures, characters, and droids. The flat fact of the matter is that the game mechanics make Jedi/Sith and non-Force users perfectly balanced with each other, which is why any scenario comparing the player characters from TOR with other Star Wars characters just gets messy.

 

And, yes, it's "G-Canon" that Windu defeated Sidious... but it is also perfectly plausible that Sidious WANTED Windu to defeat him. Windu wanted to arrest Sidious, and Sidious wanted to drag out their encounter until Anakin arrived. He needed to make himself look vulnerable and appeal to Anakin's suspicions that the Jedi were planning against Palpatine.

 

So, to conclude what I'm saying here: Jedi do not necessarily thrive on warfare, but it does hone their combat skills. The idea that the PT Jedi order had "mastered the art of lightsaber combat" is quite farcical. They did not have a fraction of the experience with combat (read: actual lightsaber duels) that the Jedi during the times of the Old Republic did. While the Jedi suffered setbacks during the First Jedi Purge, it seems quite clear that they recovered (much as Luke Skywalker's NJO did) and during the Great Galactic War they certainly got back on their game to fight the Sith.

 

There is not evidence to suggest that the few notable swordsmen to emerge from the Clone Wars era were exponentially more skilled than their Old Republic Era counterparts. In fact it seems that the body of evidence points in the opposite direction.

 

P.S. While I welcome Beni's feedback and counterarguments, I'd love to see anyone else weigh in on this discussion as well.

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I'm not sure war diminishes a Jedi's combat prowess but peace does strengthen them moreso, being that they are able to focus their connection in The Force and also hone their lightsaber combat. They can't really do that, if there is a war going on now can they? :p

 

Though Vent am curious as to the point where Anakin defeated Cin handily bit, now granted in like...the 2 second holo vid we saw, we see Vader choking a padawan and fighting against Cin one handed I don't see how that is a full representation of what went down. But....ya know, given that Cin is the Temple Battlemaster(making him one of the top duelists), who was trained by Yoda specifically in saber combat, trained Obi-Wan and Anakin and was the last hope in stopping Operation: Knightfall, I don't see how he wouldn't be a challenge for Anakin. (Putting Plot Armor aside here for the moment.)

 

No this isn't fanboyism coming out, it just seems logical is all given who Cin is. Unless of course there is a source, saying otherwise but if not then I am none too sure.

Edited by Wolfninjajedi
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I simply do not see any evidence that war damages a Jedi's combat skills. While Force sensitivity heightens the Jedi's reflexes and awareness of their weapon, the actual strength of that connection is not tied to their abilities with a lightsaber. I think this is rather clear also when Yoda and Dooku are having their little force showdown, and realize that they are at an impasse. They then resort to lightsabers, a wholly different arena.

 

Actually those who are strong in the Force and train heavily in lightsaber combat become extremely skilled swordsmen. The ability to use those deadly weapons at such speeds requires the heightened reflexes of a Jedi.

 

Also Dooku was being beaten slowly but surely. He was 'delaying the inevitable' against his former master.

 

The instructors during these times of war would have most likely had combat experience. As a lot of information regarding particular Jedi is rather sketchy, we can only infer things about how the Jedi were trained, and by whom. Since it is common for soldiers to rotate in and out of combat in order to keep them from burning out, we can only imagine that many Jedi must have done something similar during periods of sustained conflict.

 

It is likely that combat instructors rotated out, but the time that they get to train these students is not very long. Mastering the use of a lightsaber takes time (unless you are a Skywalker, but that's kinda like cheating)

 

In between these periods of sustained conflict, the Jedi who had fought in the war would have been instructing the newer generations, passing on their practical combat knowledge. Naturally, the First Jedi Purge would have seriously hindered the education of future Jedi. But with someone like the Jedi Exile (an extremely experienced warrior) to begin their training once more, they would have a good starting point. I would also point out that Luke Skywalker was in a very similar position following the Dark Times, and that he was able to train some extremely accomplished duelists.

 

Luke had the knowledge of the entire Jedi Order to guide him in his learning as well as the teaching of others. This includes Cin Dralligs teachings on dueling and the seven forms.

 

Another point, Master Kenobi. You've acknowledged him as one of the foremost swordsmen of the Jedi order, and yet he specialized in Soresu (with a dash of Ataru thrown in). Likewise, Dooku favored Makashi almost exclusively and was able to go toe to toe with Yoda (a student of every form, but mainly a practitioner of Ataru).

 

Correction: Obi-Wan mastered Soresu, Dooku mastered Makashi, and Yoda mastered every form and mastered Ataru to the highest extent. It has been said that Kenobi and Dooku were THE masters of their chosen form.

 

This isn't terribly relevant, but Kit Fisto's feat of "surviving briefly against Sidious" is less a product of his skill with a lightsaber and more due to the fact that Sidious just killed the other two Jedi first. He had a chance to raise his guard while Sidious dispatched his companions, but barely managed one or two parries. There are very few good things to say about his decision to "master" Shii-Cho.

 

In the ROTS novelization, Sidious cut down Tiin and Kolar in seconds. His speed caught them unaware. Not that they were going to last long against the most powerful Sith Lord of all time.

 

And, yes, it's "G-Canon" that Windu defeated Sidious... but it is also perfectly plausible that Sidious WANTED Windu to defeat him. Windu wanted to arrest Sidious, and Sidious wanted to drag out their encounter until Anakin arrived. He needed to make himself look vulnerable and appeal to Anakin's suspicions that the Jedi were planning against Palpatine.

 

Sidious was bringing his skills with the blade to bear on Mace Windu. He wasn't holding back in the duel. He only held back his Force power, and even then they reached a stalemate until Anakin arrived.

 

So, to conclude what I'm saying here: Jedi do not necessarily thrive on warfare, but it does hone their combat skills. The idea that the PT Jedi order had "mastered the art of lightsaber combat" is quite farcical. They did not have a fraction of the experience with combat (read: actual lightsaber duels) that the Jedi during the times of the Old Republic did. While the Jedi suffered setbacks during the First Jedi Purge, it seems quite clear that they recovered (much as Luke Skywalker's NJO did) and during the Great Galactic War they certainly got back on their game to fight the Sith.

 

Except for the FACT that Yoda was preparing the Jedi Order for another war with the Sith. They learned from the previous wars, adapting their fighting styles, connecting themselves with The Force. Under his tutelage, the Jedi Order greatly advanced their skills in dueling, their prowess with The Force, and their battle tactics.

 

And to say that they don't fight in actual duels is simply false. From the point that they learn to properly hold a lightsaber or training sword, they take part in sparring with other students. This progresses to the Initiates tournaments and finally customary duels between Jedi Masters. You will probably say that a friendly duel is far more different than a life or death situation. It's really not. Especially considering the weapon that they are using. One wrong move, one mistake, and you're dead. This taught Jedi to keep their guard up and stay at the top of their game.

 

There is not evidence to suggest that the few notable swordsmen to emerge from the Clone Wars era were exponentially more skilled than their Old Republic Era counterparts. In fact it seems that the body of evidence points in the opposite direction.

 

Of course I'm not saying that the Old Republic is completely and utterly out-classed. What I am saying is that you have grievously underestimated the dueling prowess of the great masters of the Jedi Council of the Prequels.

 

P.S. While I welcome Beni's feedback and counterarguments, I'd love to see anyone else weigh in on this discussion as well.

 

You asked for it, I guess. :p

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I think the old republic would beat the PT era for a simple reason.

Are our solders as strong as the Romans who had to cross desserts daily in sandals, only to set up camp, take it down and go again so it would become natural as for when they went for miles and miles then into battle, it would not tier them as it would become normal. answer no, would be a joke to compare. (obviously you can include other by gone warriors) Considering there was constant war, combat etc the jedi would be far better warriors then they were in the PT, even the sith would of been better back in the old republic for that reason alone. not to say plagius or sidious, yoda or mace were in any way weak, they sure was weren't. but just not as strong as the old warriors as they had no reason to fight for like 1000 years, so they would get weaker (both sith and jedi)

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I'm not sure war diminishes a Jedi's combat prowess but peace does strengthen them moreso, being that they are able to focus their connection in The Force and also hone their lightsaber combat. They can't really do that, if there is a war going on now can they? :p

 

Though Vent am curious as to the point where Anakin defeated Cin handily bit, now granted in like...the 2 second holo vid we saw, we see Vader choking a padawan and fighting against Cin one handed I don't see how that is a full representation of what went down. But....ya know, given that Cin is the Temple Battlemaster(making him one of the top duelists), who was trained by Yoda specifically in saber combat, trained Obi-Wan and Anakin and was the last hope in stopping Operation: Knightfall, I don't see how he wouldn't be a challenge for Anakin.

 

No this isn't fanboyism coming out, it just seems logical is all given who Cin is. Unless of course there is a source, saying otherwise but if not then I am none too sure.

 

Not to mention that we don't see the killing blow made. That could have been early in the duel, it could have been at the end.

 

Plus it was said that Cin Drallig (along with Shaak Ti) was Anakin's biggest threat during the battle.

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I think the old republic would beat the PT era for a simple reason.

Are our solders as strong as the Romans who had to cross desserts daily in sandals, only to set up camp, take it down and go again so it would become natural as for when they went for miles and miles then into battle, it would not tier them as it would become normal. answer no, would be a joke to compare. (obviously you can include other by gone warriors) Considering there was constant war, combat etc the jedi would be far better warriors then they were in the PT, even the sith would of been better back in the old republic for that reason alone. not to say plagius or sidious, yoda or mace were in any way weak, they sure was weren't. but just not as strong as the old warriors as they had no reason to fight for like 1000 years, so they would get weaker (both sith and jedi)

 

Your opinion, but the facts say otherwise.

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Not to mention that we don't see the killing blow made. That could have been early in the duel, it could have been at the end.

 

Plus it was said that Cin Drallig (along with Shaak Ti) was Anakin's biggest threat during the battle.

 

*Hisses like a cat at the mention of Shaak Ti* She ran away in the Temple's need!

Edited by Wolfninjajedi
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*Hisses like a cat at the mention of Shaak Ti* She ran away in the Temple's need!

 

That she did. But imagine if she had joined Cin Drallig in the battle. Would not have made Skywalker's time any easier, that's for sure.

 

But she still ran away. Wise decision? Or folly? Could be both.

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That she did. But imagine if she had joined Cin Drallig in the battle. Would not have made Skywalker's time any easier, that's for sure.

 

But she still ran away. Wise decision? Or folly? Could be both.

 

Probably a wise decision. I'm thinking she saw Cin getting eviscerated (technically impaled if you played the RotS video game) and figured, Anakin's going to kill us all!

 

I'm going to focus on Cin Drallig for a moment, seeing as he is an interesting example of what I'm getting at. He's the temple battlemaster, trained under Yoda, and a "master" (in the classroom, least) of all seven forms. He trains Anakin Skywalker, who goes out and fights in the Clone Wars. Skywalker hones his skills on the battlefield, fighting MagnaGuards, Count Dooku, etc. He comes back and this ensues:

At the height of the war, Drallig was alerted by the High Council of a possible assault on the Temple by the Sith in 19 BBY. As Council member Mace Windu moved to arrest the Sith Lord, Drallig worked with Masters Shaak Ti and Jurokk to coordinate Temple security. When Windu failed to kill Darth Sidious, the insidious Sith sent his apprentice, Darth Vader, to secure the Jedi Temple in the name of the Dark Lords. As the 501st Legion marched on the Temple, Drallig readied his students for the assault. As clone troopers were felled on his blade, Drallig was made a priority target for elimination and Vader began hunting for his former mentor. However before Drallig and Vader could confront each other, Drallig's former student, Knight Keto, intercepted the Sith and engaged him in a duel. As Drallig rushed into the Tower of First Knowledge he witnessed Keto fall to the Sith Lord.[7] Briefly engaging the Sith, Drallig retreated to the Room of a Thousand Fountains where a large group of younglings were being protected by several Padawans. When Vader arrived in the greenhouse, he cut down Padawans Bene and Whie Malreaux before quickly overwhelming Drallig and hacking through his shoulder. With Drallig and the older Padawans dead, the remaining children were quickly cut down by blasterfire.[3] The incident was recorded by Temple security camera TR4-121.[1]
(Taken from Wikipedia)

 

So, the battle-hardened student returns and "quickly overwhelms" his old lightsaber instructor... at one point apparently fighting one-handed while choking another padawan. I think that's a pretty clear indicator that while Cin Drallig posed "the greatest threat" to Skywalker at the temple, this was only because everyone else was either a mediocre swordsman or still just a padawan. He was a threat only relative to the other Jedi in the temple.

 

If you prefer the TLDR version: Combat Experience >> Sparring Practice in the Jedi Temple

 

Earlier, there was mention that the 1000 years of peace allowed the Jedi to practice their swordsmanship endlessly. While this may be so, that doesn't amount to much experience when compared with the extensive battlefield experience of the earlier Jedi and Sith.

 

Lightsaber sparring is, of course, quite dangerous. One false move would be immediately fatal, but this would not necessarily encourage effective sparring. If anything, this would make the Jedi hesitant during their dueling sessions, and would not encourage the kind of all-out fighting that would occur on the battlefield. Would you really want to be the guy who killed another Master during a "friendly duel" because you thought he would be quicker on his guard than he actually was?

 

There is no real substitute for an actual fight. Sparring can teach the movements and the forms of combat, but it is only the first stepping stone. Only through actual experience can one learn the rhythms of combat, the instinct for killing that attunes one to the ebbs and flows of a duel. We see this clearly when Anakin cuts down Cin Drallig.

 

Of course I'm not saying that the Old Republic is completely and utterly out-classed. What I am saying is that you have grievously underestimated the dueling prowess of the great masters of the Jedi Council of the Prequels.

 

I'm not saying that no one from the PT Era could keep up with the OR Jedi. What I am saying is that the vast majority of the PT Jedi have little to no practical combat experience. They're like champion karate competitors suddenly thrown into a warzone, where the other guy is playing for keeps and not necessarily following a "dueling sequence" so much as he's trying his honest best to slice you open with a lightsaber.

 

Certain members of the PT Jedi Order rose to the challenge of the Clone Wars, namely Kenobi, Skywalker, Windu, and possibly a few others, but I think this just puts them on a level playing field with the countless combatants of the older wars against the Sith.

 

I would also like to address one other point regarding the Force and lightsabers.

Actually those who are strong in the Force and train heavily in lightsaber combat become extremely skilled swordsmen. The ability to use those deadly weapons at such speeds requires the heightened reflexes of a Jedi.

 

Lightsabers are considered difficult to wield by laymen because, while technically weightless, the arc fields containing the blade generate gyroscopic effects when the weapon is swung, making it difficult to control without practice.

 

Are the heightened reflexes of a Jedi tied to Force sensitivity, or to the degree of a Jedi's ability to wield the Force?

The way Obi-Wan Kenobi describes the Force to Luke is as a connected field of energy, and that by attuning himself to it, he is better able to perceive his surroundings. This was apparently how he deflected blaster bolts despite having the visor down during training.

 

Alternatively, do Jedi's reflexes appear faster because they have precognitive abilities? If so, then they are reacting to things before they happen. This is Qui-Gon Jinn's explanation to Anakin's mother as to how he is so talented at podracing.

 

Or, are some Jedi using the Force Speed ability to simply move faster than their opponent is able to react to them? It is suggested that Sidious does this when ambushing the Jedi in his offices. Any of these factors must be considered when discussing "Jedi Reflexes", and evaluating their effect on physical performance.

 

You also have Jedi such as Orgus Din who are considered quite weak in the Force, but are formidable duelists. I've always seen the Force as being separate from dueling abilities. This is not to say that certain Force powers (namely Force Speed, but also jumps and other physical powers) are not tremendously valuable in a duel, but just that the sensitivity required to wield a lightsaber is tied solely to whether or not one can sense the Force, rather than how strong one is at controlling or channeling the Force.

 

You say

those who are strong in the Force AND train heavily in lightsaber combat become extremely skilled swordsmen
(emphasis mine)

These are separate concepts. Any force sensitive who trains heavily will increase his or her skill with a lightsaber, whether they are strong or weak in the Force. Those with strong Force abilities will have certain advantages over those who are weaker, but this does not reflect their swordsmanship directly.

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Good arguments all around, I was bouncing back and forth in my opinions for a while there.

 

After reading all this my conclusion is simple. PT beats OR

 

I will play out a theoretical scenario in short story form to illustrate why,

 

Its a dreary, cool morning. The sun has begun to rise and a brisk wind floods the green valley. A nondescript hooded figure cloaked in brown robes enters the small cradle of pasture among the towering peaks. Another figure, wearing ratty tan robes and armored leggings, strides in from the opposing corner to meet the brown clad man. As they near, each one slows to a deliberate pace. They begin to remove the loose portions of their distinctive outfits and stop several meters away from each other. They two men draw their sabers and salute the other.

 

They begin to circle an imaginary spot between the two combatants. Tan clad makes the first move. They hum of his saber cuts through the morning air and the clash of the warriors blades send sparks across the space between them. The Brown clad is thrown on the defensive and, having mastered Soresu, parries each attack deliberately and precisely. Tan continues to press, carried by the energy he feels from his use of Juyo. Brown allows this, maintaining his impeccable defenses he gives ground slowly. Feeling his opponent give ground, Tan begins to drive even more, landing his blows swiftly while searching for an opening. Not finding one, and beginning to become frustrated, Tan disengages and makes several flips away to take stock of his situation.

 

Realizing his opponents aim to frustrate and tire him, Tan calms himself and sets himself to begin the next round with Ataru. However this time, Brown is the aggressor. He charges with a force propelled leap at Tan, attempting to land broad heavy blows. Tan's nimble Ataru stance allows him to easily avoid this juggernaut of power coming at him. Brown though, will not relent. He continues to attempt hammering blows to Tan and subdue him. Tan however, seeks to use this to his advantage. As Tan uses his acrobatics to get behind Brown's wide swings, Brown pivots. Coming about, he smartly parries and manages a smooth riposte aimed for Tan's exposed midsection. The now Makashi fighter flows into a series of moves that further pick apart the hastily composed Juyo defense. Brown transitions once again into Djem So and hammers away at Tan. By now both parties are exhausted, yet Brown is fueled by his superior force power.

 

The battered Tan knows now, when it seems he is at his weakest, is the time to strike. A firm force push throws an unsuspecting Brown 30 meters and Tan leaps directly behind his attack in an attempt to kill Brown in his surprised state. Brown is suitably surprised, yet his instincts in the force prevail. He rolls to his right and blasts the incoming Tan with a push of his own. Tan lands 10 meters away. Brown, having now separated himself from Brown, sets himself into a Soresu stance once again. Tan, his favored Juyo.

 

Now, Tan is wounded with a gash to the midsection and is bleeding while Brown likely has a cracked rib and bruised sternum. Tan assaults Brown again, this time more deliberately, and continues to search desperately for something to give. A minute passes with no relenting, no pause, no respite. The combatants are locked in a dazzling display of saber prowess. Steely determination borne of uncountable conflict and force augmented tirelessness borne of endless repetition, who will give out first. Almost inevitably,

 

Tan's wounds, caused by Brown's impeccable ability to seamlessly swap styles, force his body to give out first. As darkness clouds his vision, an unexpected counter-offensive by his opponent catches him off-guard. Brown's saber comes in high, blows raining down upon Tan's head. Brown finally bats away Tan's final defense and neatly beheads Tan.

 

In the grisly aftermath, Brown gazes upon his fallen foe. Shuddering, he moves slowly with great pain, to bury the dead, and honor a brave warrior. The survivor does not finish the shrine to his enemy until dusk. And as the sun sets on this day, so does it set on a fallen member of a powerful order, lost to a member of the generations to come who built upon and improved that which was refined in the heat of battle so many centuries before.

 

TL: DR (to long: didn't read)

 

The Prequel Jedi's knowledge of more forms allowed him more options and more ability to counter a limited opponent. Also, as you see late into the battle the thing that finally killed the OR jedi was his weaker force ability and lack of knowledge in multiple forms*. In battle, stamina is easily augmented by the force and the PT jedi easily has more force power, hence more stamina despite the OR jedi's battle toughened body.

 

I attempted to include the OR jedi's wisdom, reflexes, experience, cleverness, and aggressiveness in this. The PT jedi had patience, reactions, force power, and strategy on his side.

 

*The OR jedi who is constantly fighting will learn 1 or 2 forms and stick with them if they work, he doesn't have time or need to learn a third or fourth if 1-2 works. He gets really good in those 2 due to constant use but not much more.

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Well, I read your story. All literary criticisms aside (it was hard to keep track of which Jedi was doing what at times) this was an enjoyable diversion. I will attempt to go over it piece by piece and debate the ideas you bring up during the duel.

 

Good arguments all around, I was bouncing back and forth in my opinions for a while there.

 

After reading all this my conclusion is simple. PT beats OR

 

I will play out a theoretical scenario in short story form to illustrate why,

 

Its a dreary, cool morning. The sun has begun to rise and a brisk wind floods the green valley. A nondescript hooded figure cloaked in brown robes enters the small cradle of pasture among the towering peaks. Another figure, wearing ratty tan robes and armored leggings, strides in from the opposing corner to meet the brown clad man. As they near, each one slows to a deliberate pace. They begin to remove the loose portions of their distinctive outfits and stop several meters away from each other. They two men draw their sabers and salute the other.

I appreciate you writing up an intro to this, it was nice to visualize. The salute seems to imply a very formal duel, though. Perhaps I'll provide a counter-scenario under more chaotic (read: battlefield) circumstances.

 

It appear that Tan is the OR Era Jedi and Brown is the PT Era Jedi, correct?

They begin to circle an imaginary spot between the two combatants. Tan clad makes the first move. They hum of his saber cuts through the morning air and the clash of the warriors blades send sparks across the space between them. The Brown clad is thrown on the defensive and, having mastered Soresu, parries each attack deliberately and precisely. Tan continues to press, carried by the energy he feels from his use of Juyo. Brown allows this, maintaining his impeccable defenses he gives ground slowly. Feeling his opponent give ground, Tan begins to drive even more, landing his blows swiftly while searching for an opening. Not finding one, and beginning to become frustrated, Tan disengages and makes several flips away to take stock of his situation.

This is plausible, but also remember that one of Juyo's explicitly stated strengths is that it can frequently slice through the defenses of even a Soresu master. The duel could end here if the OR Jedi, being a veteran of these confrontations, moves around the PT Jedi's defenses (remember: Juyo is both unpredictable and aggressive, always aiming for the killing stroke) and delivers a fatal blow to his throat or chest.

 

Perhaps the PT Jedi's Soresu is enough to keep him alive for now...

 

Realizing his opponents aim to frustrate and tire him, Tan calms himself and sets himself to begin the next round with Ataru. However this time, Brown is the aggressor. He charges with a force propelled leap at Tan, attempting to land broad heavy blows.

So, has Brown switched away from Soresu for his attack? Your later statements imply he is now using Djem So (a wise move, as that form is designed for saber combat, balancing offense and defense). It is completely illogical for The OR Jedi to begin using Ataru here, however. Juyo is the perfect foil for Soresu, since it provides enough of a defense to keep the Soresu duelist from easily finding an opening, while aggressively creating openings in the defenses of your adversary. Better strategy here is to press the attack with Juyo and go for the quick, opportunistic kill.

 

Tan's nimble Ataru stance allows him to easily avoid this juggernaut of power coming at him.

Slow down there, pal. Ataru is noted for it's extremely poor defensive qualities. Also, it's physically exhaustive to begin with, and so is quite poorly suited for prolonged battles (you know, the sort you would experience on a battlefield) so it seems to run against the experiences of an OR veteran combatant.

Brown though, will not relent. He continues to attempt hammering blows to Tan and subdue him. Tan however, seeks to use this to his advantage. As Tan uses his acrobatics to get behind Brown's wide swings, Brown pivots. Coming about, he smartly parries and manages a smooth riposte aimed for Tan's exposed midsection. The now Makashi fighter flows into a series of moves that further pick apart the hastily composed Juyo defense. Brown transitions once again into Djem So and hammers away at Tan. By now both parties are exhausted, yet Brown is fueled by his superior force power.

This is what I mean, using Ataru will exhaust you too easily (Qui-Gon learned this the hard way against Maul) The inexperienced duelist might employ Ataru because he's been trained in it, but the veteran warrior will stay away from such a shaky form unless he has an overwhelming reason to use it.

The battered Tan knows now, when it seems he is at his weakest, is the time to strike. A firm force push throws an unsuspecting Brown 30 meters and Tan leaps directly behind his attack in an attempt to kill Brown in his surprised state. Brown is suitably surprised, yet his instincts in the force prevail. He rolls to his right and blasts the incoming Tan with a push of his own. Tan lands 10 meters away. Brown, having now separated himself from Brown, sets himself into a Soresu stance once again. Tan, his favored Juyo.

Again, the fancy acrobatics rarely result in a kill, unless you've got the drop (heh heh) on your adversary. Recall Malgus fighting in the Jedi Temple, his dramatic leap only gave the Jedi he was fighting more time to react. (Kid should have known better, this was pretty late in the war... but he's an arrogant Sith Lord with a flair for the dramatic, oh well).

As for the stances assumed here, good choices both. Soresu is efficient in its defense, conserving energy. However, when you're getting tired, you know you've got to end things quickly, so Juyo makes sense if you're experienced with it. We're basically back at square one, however... the veteran combatant would probably have seen this coming, and stuck with his initial strategy instead of getting all acrobatic.

Now, Tan is wounded with a gash to the midsection and is bleeding while Brown likely has a cracked rib and bruised sternum. Tan assaults Brown again, this time more deliberately, and continues to search desperately for something to give. A minute passes with no relenting, no pause, no respite. The combatants are locked in a dazzling display of saber prowess. Steely determination borne of uncountable conflict and force augmented tirelessness borne of endless repetition, who will give out first. Almost inevitably, Tan's wounds, caused by Brown's impeccable ability to seamlessly swap styles, force his body to give out first. As darkness clouds his vision, an unexpected counter-offensive by his opponent catches him off-guard. Brown's saber comes in high, blows raining down upon Tan's head. Brown finally bats away Tan's final defense and neatly beheads Tan.

Bleeding from a saber wound?! I'm going to pretend you didn't say that (lightsabers cauterize their wound almost instantly). Also, the Jedi preferred to kill by impaling with the end of a lightsaber whenever possible. Decapitation was seen as a last resort, since it caused the most disfiguration when compared to kills made to the torso/abdomen.

In the grisly aftermath, Brown gazes upon his fallen foe. Shuddering, he moves slowly with great pain, to bury the dead, and honor a brave warrior. The survivor does not finish the shrine to his enemy until dusk. And as the sun sets on this day, so does it set on a fallen member of a powerful order, lost to a member of the generations to come who built upon and improved that which was refined in the heat of battle so many centuries before.

More in line with a Jedi's teachings, here. However, were this an actual battle, the PT Jedi would not have had a chance for respite. If you burn out after one engagement, it's going to be quite easy for any old rookie to take you out thirty seconds later. Or worse, a stray blaster bolt you might have deflected could slip past your guard if you're wounded and exhausted. One of the most important principles of combat (mostly learned through experience) is how to conserve your stamina.

TL: DR (to long: didn't read)

 

The Prequel Jedi's knowledge of more forms allowed him more options and more ability to counter a limited opponent. Also, as you see late into the battle the thing that finally killed the OR jedi was his weaker force ability and lack of knowledge in multiple forms*. In battle, stamina is easily augmented by the force and the PT jedi easily has more force power, hence more stamina despite the OR jedi's battle toughened body.

 

I attempted to include the OR jedi's wisdom, reflexes, experience, cleverness, and aggressiveness in this. The PT jedi had patience, reactions, force power, and strategy on his side.

 

I agree with you on the aggression and cleverness, although I'm not sure you represented the experience factor too accurately... however, that's mostly semantics. The duel on the whole was plausible, although it seemed more like a set piece engagement between two PT Era Jedi at times.

 

When you say the PT Jedi "easily" has more Force Power, I feel like you're making an assumption here. While the PT Jedi is likely to have more subtle control of the Force, and a more developed knowledge of its theories and philosophy, he is no more likely to have a greater raw aptitude for the Force than his OR counterpart. For the sake of argument, we can say that on average, a PT Jedi will have greater knowledge of Force techniques and a wider arsenal of powers that he regularly practices.

 

*The OR jedi who is constantly fighting will learn 1 or 2 forms and stick with them if they work, he doesn't have time or need to learn a third or fourth if 1-2 works. He gets really good in those 2 due to constant use but not much more.

Well... that's kind of my point. The one or two forms he knows really work. As in, they have allowed him to kill numerous adversaries, who likely utilized the full spectrum of lightsaber forms (not individually, but collectively he is more likely to have fought a variety of duelists). He gets better and better with his chosen forms every time he fights.

 

The PT Era Jedi has been taught to use an adaptive, flexible style. He switches between forms as he sees fit, and while this gives him a greater flexibility, it can also have drawbacks. There is such a thing as "paralysis of choice". When confronted with many options at once, under stressful conditions, your reactions are often slower than when confronted with only a few choices. This is one of the core principles you must adhere to when instructing hand to hand combat. It is infinitely better to teach a few simple, effective techniques that can be applied in any number of situations than to learn a large number of more specific techniques.

 

Also, it is extremely unlikely that the PT Era Jedi has fought a practitioner of Juyo before. Aside from sparring sessions with Mace Windu or one of the other few Jedi permitted to learn Juyo/Vapaad, PT Era Jedi have no exposure to this lethal, efficient style. That's a large part of why Qui-Gon Jinn and Obi-Wan Kenobi have such trouble fighting against Darth Maul. There's a good reason that Mace Windu used Juyo almost exclusively (it was deadly and flexible), and he was considered the best, or second best duelist in the entire PT Order.

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Just for the sake of it, I'll present a quick counter-scenario to the earlier bit of literature attempting to illustrate a confrontation between the two parties considered here.

 

The battle has been raging for almost an hour, and both sides' formations have begun to break down. The jungle air is thick with smoke and fires crackle here and there in the underbrush. An OR Jedi moves cautiously through a crater, wary of incoming blaster fire, reaching out through the Force to feel the presence of any nearby foes.

 

As he climbs the lip of the crater, a PT Era Jedi moves through the jungle foliage nearby. They sense each other, and both Jedi raise their guards swiftly. The OR Jedi steps into Djem So, while the PT Jedi reflexively assumes the Jedi Ready stance. Blaster fire lights up the smoke around them, and a flight of bombers screams overhead.

 

Seizing the initiative, the OR Jedi moves forward quickly. Striking smoothly and repeatedly, he balances aggression with caution, seeking the measure of his enemy.

 

The PT Jedi guards against this attack, dancing gracefully into the forms of Soresu. He is also watching his enemy, waiting to tire him out.

 

The OR Jedi has danced this dance before, and he knows the music well. He presses with Djem So, bringing down heavy blows on the PT Jedi's guard, who transitions to Shien in order to better prepare for an opening in his enemy's guard. As he does so, the OR Jedi unexpectedly leaps into a series of thrusts and close cuts, intermingled randomly with kicks and attempts to trip the PT Jedi. Confused by the ferocity of his attack, and the unpredictable, seemingly random nature of his attacks, the PT Jedi drops back into Soresu, relying on his close guard to protect him from this vicious assault.

 

The two combatants' lightsabers flash in the smoke, and they step quickly over the wet jungle plants, careful of their footing; eyes locked on each other's sabers. The PT Jedi is quick with his reactions, each parry a reflexive motion, the product of a thousand hours sparring in the Temple. His counterpart flows with the rhythm of the fight, not thinking but feeling his opponent's lightsaber clash with his, seeking that one perfect moment. His form is efficient, and aggressive, but not as exhausting an offensive as Ataru.

 

The PT Jedi reaches out through the Force and feels his opponents movements, seeing them less with his eyes as much as he feels them through the Force. He calms himself and lets the Force guide his lightsaber, moving to match the unpredictable attacks.

 

The fight moves away from the crater, and closer to the jungle. Sweat drips into their eyes and the acrid smoke all around them stings their lungs. Suddenly, the PT Jedi senses a burst of emotion from his adversary. The OR Jedi shunts aside the blade of the PT Jedi, making a quick cut across his enemy's chest. It is shallow, but unexpected.

 

Fighting panic, the PT Jedi tries to step into the next form in his sequence. He seeks the calm of the Force, raising his guard, but before he completes the motion, the OR Jedi has stepped in close, following up on his cut. He allows the momentum of the PT Jedi's sequence to carry him forward, and deftly slides around him. A quick twist of his wrists turns the OR Jedi's saber, driving it into the PT Jedi's back. The glowing end of his blade juts from his enemy's sternum, casting it's glow on his face.

 

Still puzzled, his mouth slightly open as he breathes out sharply in surprise, the PT Jedi crumples to the ground. The OR Jedi pauses to check that his enemy is dead, and feeling nothing in the Force where a moment ago there was the shimmering presence of his enemy, he moves on into the jungle, towards the sounds of battle.

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Narratives aside (and very good ones may I say!) allow me to reiterate a few points and pose some new ones, rather than counter the host of arguments that have been made in my absence:

 

One's connection to the Light Side of the Force is negatively affected by war, take the Jedi Code:

 

There is no emotion, there is peace.

- war creates anger, hatred, pain etc. and it dispels peace.

 

There is no ignorance, there is knowledge.

- war destroys knowledge, both through killing those who possess it and destroying records that hold it e.g. the destruction of the Jedi Temple, and the Jedi Library on Ossus.

 

There is no passion, there is serenity.

- war encourages passion, in the heat of battle it is all to easy to embrace ones emotions and allow them to unbalance you, this is what happened to Anakin Skywalker.

 

There is no chaos, there is harmony

- war creates chaos and death and causes rifts to open up both physically and spiritually. It is often difficult to achieve harmony and serenity in the midst of battle.

 

There is no death, there is the Force

- this line is not exactly relevant, but nonetheless seeing countless die before you, seeing their lives wasted may make a Jedi doubt the integrity of this line.

 

All together war is the antithesis of what a Jedi stands for and oppossed to the Light Side of the Force - as such when a Jedi engages in war they risk losing affinity with the light and becoming unfocused and unbalanced.

 

What is important though is to see the connection between the Force and lightsaber combat, the Force is an intrinsic component of the lightsaber, you cannot simply say they are entirely different realms. As Wookieepedia says, it is impossible to achieve true mastery over the lightsaber if you lack a strong connection to the Force. And the lightsaber forms themselves rely on strength in the Force e.g. Ataru and Form V. Dun moch is also evidence of this, it was often used by the Sith to unbalance their Jedi opponents by encouraging them to embrace their emotions. Darth Maul uses this against Obi-Wan Kenobi if you recall:

 

"Your rage has unbalanced you. That is not the Jedi way, is it?"

 

Imagine the effect that a prolonged war would have on a Jedi's affinity with the light, a powerful master such as Satele may be able to maintain serenity, but the same cannot be said for the less experienced of the Order. Lets also consider that it is through meditation and serenity that one draws closer, and therefore more powerful, in the Force. The PT Jedi Order experienced 2000 years of peace, in which they could bring themselves closer and closer to the Force and become more powerful because of it. As such they can augment their prowess with the lightsaber with their strength in the Force. Meanwhile those Jedi who have only experienced war will become weakened because of it. The crux of this argument is that war weakens Jedi and peace strengthens them. Indeed if anyone has played the Sith Warrior storyline they will recall the Jedi Master on Hoth who had spent many years in solitude, drawing closer and closer to the Force, without the chaos of battle surrounding him he grew more powerful:

 

"The Force is with me, greater than ever now. I suspect I could defeat you quite handily. But I'm no longer concerned with the tidings of this galaxy, or these times. I only seek to continue my transcendence."

 

We also cannot disregard the effect war has on teachings. Ventessel brings up 'rotations' etc. to deal with such problems, but he does not take into account a major factor: death. War takes countless lives, many of which would have been Jedi Knights skilled with the lightsaber, how can a Jedi train new padawans if they are dead? During the Great Sith War many of the Order's most skilled duelists were killed or indisposed e.g. Ulic Qel Droma, Exar Kun, Cay Qel-Droma, Vodo-Siosk Baas and many others. And lets not forget the loss of the Great Jedi Library on Ossus, at least half on the Jedi teachings were destroyed, many of which likely encompassed lightsaber combat. Then we have the Mandalorian Wars, a huge portion of the Jedi broke away from the Order, likely many of them were Jedi Guardians and Sentinels. All were lost during the Mandalorian Wars, they either died or fell to the dark side and were later killed in the Jedi Civil War. During that period the Dantooine Jedi Enclave was razed, more teachings lost. And then we have the Great Galactic War which saw the destruction of the Jedi Temple, and the loss of countless Jedi Knights. During the Cold War Jun Seros, Jaric Kaedan and Orgus Din were all killed, and that was just during the Cold War - can you imagine the loss of powerful Jedi Knights during the war itself?

 

All this accumulated with the next generation of Jedi being completely without substantial teaching in the Force and in lightsaber combat, so all that combat experience built up in periods of war was lost and never utilized. Do you recall Mical? When he came of age their were no Jedi left to train him, think how many other potential Jedi would have been lost and how many Jedi would have be incompetently trained by the few Consulars and Historians that remained. War has a tendency to seriously damage the population of skilled lightsaber duelists, making the next generation comparatively weak. Whereas in a period of sustained peace, this is not a problem. Knowledge is gained, retained and passed on.

 

Finally we are giving too much value to first hand combat experience, yes it is important but once that experience is retained it doesn't have to be lost, it can be preserved and passed down to generations to come. Take the lightsaber forms, they flourished in a period of war were Jedi could test themselves and learn from experience. But once these forms were lain down and preserved, there was no longer any need for combat experience. Because that experience can essentially be attained simply by learning a form. A Jedi can learn how to deflect blaster bolts, not by engaging in war, but by learning Soresu. A Jedi can learn how to fight a lightsaber wielding opponent by learning Makashi. Take Dooku, he had never and never has fought in a war, and yet he is immensely skilled with the lightsaber and has defeated many lightsaber wielding opponents.

 

So in that sense the PT Jedi Order has just as much 'combat experience' as the OR Jedi Order did, they have all the benefits of war experience and none of the negatives. The fact that many if not most Jedi survived the Clone Wars is testament to this. What the PT Order has in their advantage however is a closer affinity to the Force, which does - and I cannot stress this enough - have a significant impact of lightsaber prowess, the two are inseparable. In a nutshell the PT Order is all the more stronger the OR Jedi Order because Jedi thrive in peace and are weakened by war - that is the way of the Force.

Edited by Beniboybling
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