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Group Finder NEEDS a fix - NOW


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The groupfinder should have been cross-server from the start, but some of the leet-kiddies whined; mainly the ones who didn't want a groupfinder to begin with. I expect it will go quietly cross-server in another six months or so.

 

please no cross server, we want to ignore very bad (I don't mean gear) ppl after flashpoint so we don't have to see them ever again...

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The groupfinder should have been cross-server from the start, but some of the leet-kiddies whined; mainly the ones who didn't want a groupfinder to begin with. I expect it will go quietly cross-server in another six months or so.

 

Or cross server was not implemented because there is no merit in that it will some how magically fix the imbalance between healer/tanks and DPS players. If anything, it has a high potential to just make it worse.

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The groupfinder should have been cross-server from the start, but some of the leet-kiddies whined; mainly the ones who didn't want a groupfinder to begin with. I expect it will go quietly cross-server in another six months or so.

Here's what is illogical about this idea (and note that I have no philosophical objection to x-server, I just can't stand this particular argument in favor of it.)

 

1. Most every single server has an excess of dps'es and a lack of tanks/healers.

2. If you combine them all in one big queue,

3. The dpses are still going to have to wait,

4. As there STILL aren't enough tanks and healers in the big queue...

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Or cross server was not implemented because there is no merit in that it will some how magically fix the imbalance between healer/tanks and DPS players. If anything, it has a high potential to just make it worse.

 

it wouldn't address the population discrepancy between the roles, but no one who knew what they were talking about said that it would. Cross-server groupfinders have always been exclusively to increase populations of participants. It doesn't affect the ratios within the populations to any degree (so it's not going to make it easier to be a DPS), but what it does do is reduce the average wait time (largely by reducing queue times for tanks and healers since you're likely wait less time before a specific role queues up) and increase the likelihood of finding a group during off-hours and while leveling.

 

Population has a strong inverse correlation with average queue times (as populations increase, average queue times tend to decrease). The simplest way to increase population for any system (since getting more people to play the game is a *massively* complicated and expensive prospect that every MMO ever has constantly strived to stymy) is to merge server populations, whether through forced server merging (which has already been done, but can be disastrous if overdone which is why the devs stopped at 12 servers rather than fewer) or cross-server functionality (which allows individual distinct servers to exist while combining functionality for specific things). The only "problem" with cross-server functionality is derived from a desire to maintain a high level of distinctness between servers (so that each server has a "flavor" or community that develops) and accountability within the system (such as letting people know in general if someone is a ninja and/or someone not being able to get a group because he's on everyone's ignore list for being an expletive deleted).

 

The comparative assessment of the risks of these problems weighed against the benefits of larger populations varies with the individual looking at the system as a whole. In my experience, people don't community enforce like most developers assume players will. I can only conclude that the developers look at the forum posters to gauge player opinion even though the opinions of forum posters tend to be the most extreme viewpoints rather than the more moderate/lazy viewpoints of average players which is why the developers cite community enforcement of behavior as a reason for not having cross-server functionality even though almost no one actually does so, at least in my experience and observation. This is one of the reasons why I've always supported cross-server functionality for random grouping mechanisms: most people never see the other randoms they group with ever again so they don't care whether they're on their local server or not and most people that would be affected by community enforcement are unaffected thanks to general laziness. As such, a majority of players would only see the benefits of a larger population using the groupfinder. It's simply a vocal minority that would see any of the problems.

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Population has a strong inverse correlation with average queue times (as populations increase, average queue times tend to decrease).

 

This is a half truth, Once a population reaches the size where a line begins to form 100% of the time for queues, then the ratio of the roles played will dictate queue times. The concept that queue times decrease from high populations comes from the idea that the difference in the roles selected becomes smaller as more players exist. Similar to flipping a coin 10 times vs 10 millions times. The outcome can be 4:6 ratio where the second will look more like 49.99:50.01 ratio.

 

But the problem is that players are not selecting the roles randomly, in fact the majority just doesn't like to tank (and heal to a lesser degree). This makes the ratio between roles far less predictable and more likely out of balance no matter how many people are allowed to queue.

 

By adding more people, your simply adding people waiting in line ahead of you vs the needed role joining up. This can equally improve and make things worse.

 

The low pop servers will in fact receive huge gains but the larger populated servers will feel no difference in the end. BW most likely recognized this by looking at their internal data and comparing the server ratios on who plays what most often. Thus the best solution was to simply force low population servers into the larger ones allowing them the benefits without bringing in all the negative effects of the X-server system.

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People leave groups because they're tired of wasting time with idiots who can't follow instructions. When this happens, all you do is waste a lot of time and usually wind up not completing the FP.

 

So why stick around? You can't blame them.

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People leave groups because they're tired of wasting time with idiots who can't follow instructions. When this happens, all you do is waste a lot of time and usually wind up not completing the FP.

 

So why stick around? You can't blame them.

"People" huh?

 

I've stuck around through some pretty difficult runs, even when the others in the group are undergeared and having troubles. Even when one person is causing problems, the other 2 are usually just trying to get through the FP so I stick around and do my best.

 

I have had a jerk leave an Battle of Ilum pug who was demanding we spacebar, skip all mobs, ran ahead trying to lead us through the exhaustion zone and got pissed when we aggroed a mob while trying to keep up with his "skip everything you dumb noobs." HE was the one who quit. I stuck around and got the other 2 through.

 

So tell me, were we the "idiots who can't follow instructions" in this scenario?

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Maybe I am in the minority here but I do not think the idiots are the ones not trying to skip every battle. If I don't have time to do a FP I don't no one period. What I can't stand when healing is guys who think they are god and survive anything. If your dps on most boss fights it is extremely simple to avoid major damage. I sadly can't remember there names but here is a couple examples I believe both are on false emp. During the big droid boss fight he.pulls you in and then immediately hits hard, if you are dps just take a couple steps back after the pull its extremely simple and allows your healer to focus on the tank if you do happen to get hit by this do not freak out on your healer use a medpack or wait til he is done healing the tank. The other boss I am thinking of is the one who charges his implants. Dps far tough often likes to take him on head on when his implants are charged. This is just dumb you can do it once by mistake but once the rest of the group tells you to stop doing it and you don't don't be upset if your kicked, if you cause a wipe or are put on some ignore lists.

 

In all seriousness knowing the fight is half the battle. If you don't know it ask. I have never been in a game where everyone was unwilling to explain. I have no problem teaching and helping you but if you repeatedly make the same mistakes with no desire to correct them I will be putting you on ignore increasing you Que times.

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I like how the thread has almost become a Tank vs. Healer vs. DPS… I have 2 healers and a DPS 50 now and I am working on getting a tank to 50 or depending on 1.4 respecing my shadow to Tank. What we all need to remember before we become jerks in a group, that person we are belittling may be on as an alt and their main may be really good and really well equipped. Some of us are really good at one role, but not up to par, yet, at another. I know I am a better player as a healer than I am a DPS or Tank player. So before you speak, think, that DPS you are belittling and kicking may have a great healer or tank. Also you may want to consider the rest of the group, you can belittle me all day, but if you are a jerk to someone else or vote kick another, you make my ignore list, all my ignore lists. I don’t care what your role is. I have never quit a HM FP or an Ops, but I have put people on my ignore list before even getting to the end and there are only two ways to make that list, belittle others or ninja.

 

Wait times is an easy fix, but BioWare can’t fix it. Everyone needs to run alts as either healers or tanks (preferably tanks).

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There is no problem with group finder as of the ppl getting placed into wrong roles they probably click heals and dps check next time before entering que i role a tank, healer and dps and know all the roles im suppose to be playing the big issue is alot of ppl dont know how to play their role and are too intimidated to role as a tank they just want to be carried through and given their gear on a silver platter bh comms are so easy to get now they are makeing things way too easy that is why we have alot of ppl that dont know their roles.
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I know it's been said already, but making stricter rules for Tanks and Healers will only make your wait time as a DPS even longer.

 

Also, there are two spots for DPS while there is only one spot for healer and tank on a team which gives DPS' the advantage. Actually, it's that way for everything in the game; more spots are giving to DPS' in operations too.

 

What you want to do is encourage people to roll Tank and Healer...not discourage them.

 

I think larger groups for Flash Points would be fun though. Perhaps they could make nightmare versions of every Flash Point and increase group sizes for them.

Edited by Radzkie
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If you want shorter queue times: listen to the tanks and healers. We aren't gods, but our queue pops are much much faster. I have no issues leaving a group (or kicking a ninja or DPS that can't follow instructions) if I'm not enjoying it. I tank and heal because I love it. If you make my role harder it feels more like a job.

 

I don't like being full Campaign and wiping on stupid things like enrage timers because the DPS couldn't follow instructions. I won't put up with it from guildies and I won't put up with it from PUGs. I go with a nice 2 warning systems and I won't progress the FP at all until the party in question responds to make sure they know what I'm saying. They ignore me or don't respond after 3 attempts, I'll talk to the other members and vote kick them. They aren't being part of the team so I don't want to team with them.

 

Also DPS screaming for cross server have no understanding that it makes next to 0 difference once a sustainable population for repeated queue pops has been reached. Given that most servers are already at that point cross server will make no difference for end game queues. Queues for FPs while leveling would be improved by cross server leveling because they do not have the population in each level bracket to sustain repeated queue pops.

 

Tanks and healers are usually the ones that are against cross server LFG. Making it cross server will deplete the population of tanks and healers using the tool and likely exacerbate the problem. Again, listen to the tanks and healers. Listen to the ones that you want to actually do something.

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This is a half truth, Once a population reaches the size where a line begins to form 100% of the time for queues, then the ratio of the roles played will dictate queue times. The concept that queue times decrease from high populations comes from the idea that the difference in the roles selected becomes smaller as more players exist. Similar to flipping a coin 10 times vs 10 millions times. The outcome can be 4:6 ratio where the second will look more like 49.99:50.01 ratio.

 

I never said that larger populations are guaranteed to lower queue times for everyone. In fact, I even pointed out that they wouldn't really do anything to affect the average queue times of DPS. It *would* however reduce the average queue time of tanks and healers and, in doing so, reduce average queue time for the total group. It's semantically true, which was the point of saying it, and only a half truth if you choose to ignore the fact that I qualified it before.

 

The entire point of cross-server functionality is to address the population problems that we're both referencing. At times, populations aren't large enough to support group finder mechanisms. Cross server mechanisms are meant to address *that* problem, not the problem of role disparities within a population; they serve to combine multiple populations that are, at times, too small to function effectively, even if the ratio was more optimal. You're not likely to get a group for any kind of 4 man content at 3 AM on only a single server. No single server has the population to reliably do anything that late since the population isn't high enough at the time. If you combined the population of all of the servers, you'd be likely to get a large enough number of players, even at massively off hours, to get a group or two. The purpose isn't to decrease the average queue time of groups during high population hours; it's to decrease average queue times during low pop hours (and to serve low pop servers at all times).

 

No matter how you cut it, there *is* a strong correlation between population size and queue times (it's not a linear correlation; it's logarithmic). It's not a half truth. It's a whole truth. There's a reason most people expect cross-server mechanisms to some extent; they make a *lot* of sense and the arguments against them are relatively weak, and they tend to happen eventually unless there is a hardware problem preventing a solution from being implemented. They're not a panacea for wait times, but they're effective at addressing the specific problem of population size.

 

Complaints about wait times being too long can be broken down into one of two basic types: a specific role complaining about taking longer than other roles and players in low population subsets complaining about rarely getting to see content. Cross-server functionality addresses the latter. The only real solution to the former is to impact the comparative active populations (the most popular/effective of which I've seen is incentivising low population roles to be more active by providing additional rewards for queuing up).

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What in my opinion is most necessary about Group Finder is a) a display of which flashpoint I will be going and b) a display of the team's health points so I can have an idea of their gear. It pisses me off whenever some newly dinged 50 thinks he/she is entitled to get boosted by pug groups to do HM content. HM content is not for fresh level 50 players, Hard Modes are tuned for players with around 14k to 16k hp go lower than this and you'll have big problems. I don't want to boost up anyone that can't be arsed to get appropriate gear for Hard Modes.
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What in my opinion is most necessary about Group Finder is a) a display of which flashpoint I will be going and b) a display of the team's health points so I can have an idea of their gear. It pisses me off whenever some newly dinged 50 thinks he/she is entitled to get boosted by pug groups to do HM content. HM content is not for fresh level 50 players, Hard Modes are tuned for players with around 14k to 16k hp go lower than this and you'll have big problems. I don't want to boost up anyone that can't be arsed to get appropriate gear for Hard Modes.

 

that is actually not true. example:

I have fully black hole geared assasin tank,and found jugger tank more fun, I respecced to dps and got recruit stuff, can pull out 1100 dps, that's enouth for denova sm and LI hm.

gear is not a problem, people using only two fingers, which one of them is used for running, are problem. I have seen snipers using only snipe, PT using flame tower... only... tanks using '1' and smash... recruit gear is more then enouth.

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that is actually not true. example:

I have fully black hole geared assasin tank,and found jugger tank more fun, I respecced to dps and got recruit stuff, can pull out 1100 dps, that's enouth for denova sm and LI hm.

gear is not a problem, people using only two fingers, which one of them is used for running, are problem. I have seen snipers using only snipe, PT using flame tower... only... tanks using '1' and smash... recruit gear is more then enouth.

 

Well let's say I am elitist and leave it at that, I don't want to group up with players who think they are entitled to play with me while they don't get what it takes to play with me. I had ql 126 gear before even getting into Hard Modes and no it isn't hard to get them if you play smart. I want to see the hp's of people so I know which group to avoid and which group to play with.

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they have to gear up somehow.. show them how good you are :)

that's why I try to que withatleast one guild member, so I'm sure, atleast one dps is doing it right, but, healing 3 muppets in tioniese/columni ho have no idea how to use their abilities is a fun sport, and quite challenging.

 

I think I smell sacrasm off your post, but in case I'm wrong, well You can always quit or vote kick person who is not good enouth to group with you, that is why there is a 'leave' button.

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they have to gear up somehow.. show them how good you are :)

that's why I try to que withatleast one guild member, so I'm sure, atleast one dps is doing it right, but, healing 3 muppets in tioniese/columni ho have no idea how to use their abilities is a fun sport, and quite challenging.

 

I think I smell sacrasm off your post, but in case I'm wrong, well You can always quit or vote kick person who is not good enouth to group with you, that is why there is a 'leave' button.

 

Gearing up for Hard Modes can be done through doing dailies, doing normal 50 flashpoints, doing story mode EV + KP, through buying orange gear and fitting it with 51 mods. I did all these when I dinged.

 

I understand that since launch Hard Modes got nerfed as well, but just two days ago a group with 2 fresh 50's I didn't want to outright refuse them but to give it a try, even though I knew it's a lost cause. They kept wiping at the last boss in HM Directive 7 and I said f*** it.

 

People should work themselves if they want to earn something, not be entitled to get boosted through it.

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Gearing up for Hard Modes can be done through doing dailies, doing normal 50 flashpoints, doing story mode EV + KP, through buying orange gear and fitting it with 51 mods. I did all these when I dinged.

 

I understand that since launch Hard Modes got nerfed as well, but just two days ago a group with 2 fresh 50's I didn't want to outright refuse them but to give it a try, even though I knew it's a lost cause. They kept wiping at the last boss in HM Directive 7 and I said f*** it.

 

People should work themselves if they want to earn something, not be entitled to get boosted through it.

 

Failing on Mentor isn't necessarily a gear issue. Its a mechanicy fight with a lot happening. Its not hard, but its PUG hard.

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Failing on Mentor isn't necessarily a gear issue. Its a mechanicy fight with a lot happening. Its not hard, but its PUG hard.

 

maybe, but seriously I have no more f***s to give about what issue it is. I have lost my patience a long time ago with them unfortunately. If I use my own criteria (15k-16k hp people) we go through this content seamlessly all the time. If it was just 1 badly geared guy that could also be tolerated as I overgear the content anyway. More and it makes a tedious experience.

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Sounds like gear isn't the problem. I have done D7 with 2 lowly geared DPS players without a tank (Tank DC) without a wipe. We just all knew what to do and I healed only instead of DPSing at all. Now I was over geared, but don't think I carried them through anything. I just had enough HP that I could stop running and hit them with larger heals once in a while without worrying about death.

 

Gear makes stuff easier, but skill is what matters and I don't think group finder is ever going to tell us someones skill.

 

Most fun I have had in a HMFP was BoI with a 12K fresh tank. No wipes, but tank died a few times getting thrown off platforms. Which I still think was the healers fault (me). :D

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I want the ability to outright inspect the 3 other players I am going to be grouped with before I click ACCEPT so I am not wasting my and everyone else's time with annyoing vote kicks, raging DPS newbs and green/blue 50s with attitudes.

There's so many people without the neccessary skill to complete a simple HM flashpoint, I don't need to add the people with lacking gear as well.

Especially for HM Lost Island.

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I want the ability to outright inspect the 3 other players I am going to be grouped with before I click ACCEPT so I am not wasting my and everyone else's time with annyoing vote kicks, raging DPS newbs and green/blue 50s with attitudes.

There's so many people without the neccessary skill to complete a simple HM flashpoint, I don't need to add the people with lacking gear as well.

Especially for HM Lost Island.

 

Quoted for truth. This is what I want. Of course we cannot measure someone's skill. But at least knowing that they are adequately geared for the content I am heading to gives me a measure of relief

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Quoted for truth. This is what I want. Of course we cannot measure someone's skill. But at least knowing that they are adequately geared for the content I am heading to gives me a measure of relief

 

I would just prefer that the developers required a minimum average or total rating to queue for HM FPs, similar to what WoW did with their group finder. Don't set it too high (like requiring an average item level of 100-110), and I don't see too many people complaining. I say this as a person that has run through more than a few fresh-in-leveling-gear characters through HM FPs because they assume that they're due the right to run them just for hititng 50. They're painfully undergeared for it, and the only reason they manage is because of people like me that go in there *massively* overgeared for it.

 

I don't mind doing this for guildies because I know them. I do mind doing it for complete randoms who expect it to be their right to have other people drag them through content they're not prepped for and generally haven't done the work to be ready for (every single one that I've met is generally ignorant of the hard mode content in the first place; most of those that already know the content on a different character get the gear from their main or guild when they hit 50 or know to put forth the work to gear up so that they're actually ready for it).

 

If the developers want overgeared characters to run fresh 50s through content, provide an incentive to run the actual entry level FPs as well as the HM FPs through the group finder. Daily Comms come in so easily and are used for so little now that I doubt anyone doings Ops even notices them any more. Toss 2 BH comms on top of the 5 daily comms for running the normal FPs at level 50 and you'll see at least a few overgeared people start to "slum it".

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