Levity Posted February 14, 2013 Share Posted February 14, 2013 cash sinks exist in every game, just because you have to work to get around the cash sink now doesn't make it bad design the only thing that makes it "bad design" is the fact that it was nearly a year of it not being this way. If the repair costs were the same as they are now the whole time, it wouldn't be an issue Agreed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larity Posted February 14, 2013 Share Posted February 14, 2013 But again, missing the point. That is two hours that are pointless. There is no challenge in doing what you propose. Hell I could probably code a bot to do it if I were so inclined. I.E. bad game design. And what else would you do in those two hours? Sit on the fleet? Craft? Bs with guild? Multi-tasking is a nice skill to have. No, its not bad game design. Its called an MMO You want better gear, you grind. You need money, you grind. This has been the case in every mmo. And honestly, you guys think this is expensive for repair? Go play vindictus and wear their top end armor and run a raid, look at your repair from one run and you'll go "Gee, those ToR repairs are nothing" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Levity Posted February 14, 2013 Share Posted February 14, 2013 And what else would you do in those two hours? Sit on the fleet? Craft? Bs with guild? Multi-tasking is a nice skill to have. No, its not bad game design. Its called an MMO You want better gear, you grind. You need money, you grind. This has been the case in every mmo. And honestly, you guys think this is expensive for repair? Go play vindictus and wear their top end armor and run a raid, look at your repair from one run and you'll go "Gee, those ToR repairs are nothing" ^ That. As well as C9. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamthehoyden Posted February 14, 2013 Share Posted February 14, 2013 Before I had a 50 though I was making that money, the same way, back before 1.2. When repairs were even more rediculous. And going back to the way it was puts people using non modded gear back to paying more then people with modded gear. It's a two way sword here. And there needs to be a reason for people to not want to die. Money can be made in this game. I certainly have a decent pile of credits. Not everyone does. And it doesn't need to go back to the way it was. If using non-modded gear was costing ridiculous amounts in credits to repair, then that should be reduced, not everyone else's raised. If people aren't willing to try things and die then you get: - harsher reactions to clueless newbies (and that's already bad enough so making it worse is definitely not a good direction) - fewer attempts at ops bosses - fewer guilds doing progression ops There's no good reason to raise these costs. None. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justiceface Posted February 14, 2013 Share Posted February 14, 2013 take 2 hours out of your time, run the belsavis daily, black hole daily, sector x daily, and ilum daily, are not hard, and can easily be solo'd by every class. Easier for stealth, but still easy. ~80k Ilum ~100k Black Hole ~ 80k Sector X ~ 250k Belsavis ~ Daily Flashpoint 17k + turn in quest another 17k ~ Weekly Flashpoint 20-30k thats about 570k Repair bill of tionese near yellow, 25k. Repair of columi 30k. Its not that difficult. I get it. Reading is hard. So i'll repeat myself. The change is only for moddable gear, the change is not just affecting moddable gear. Most of the community doesnt want it, most of the community seems to hate it. What is the justification for the change? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larity Posted February 14, 2013 Share Posted February 14, 2013 There is, its called success vs failure. Death is a feedback loop to tell you you didn't succeed at something, Look at the PvP design in this same game. No repair costs, but death still has implications. Between the scaled time limit to respawn and the fact that if you die you failed at what you are doing, that is sufficient feedback for most people to choose to avoid doing it. If you die a lot, then look at why you are dying, think of other things to do to increase your chance at success and then execute it. And they give many MANY ways for anyone to handle any situations. Group wiping, figure out why. Someone screwing you over, remove or fix the problem. Group not geared enough? Don't run that flashpoint/operation/heroic and go gear up. Its not that hard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DorkTrooper Posted February 14, 2013 Share Posted February 14, 2013 This is going to kill PUG ops. People were already having tantrums over 5-7k repair costs. I don't mind running dailies to a point, but I'm not going to devote 2-3 hours per day to dailies before I even get to do the endgame content I really enjoy. So yeah, cutting back on that. My tanks won't be popping those op queues nearly so often. Not complaining, just stating a fact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthVenizen Posted February 14, 2013 Share Posted February 14, 2013 I get it. Reading is hard. So i'll repeat myself. The change is only for moddable gear, the change is not just affecting moddable gear. Most of the community doesnt want it, most of the community seems to hate it. What is the justification for the change? the fact that it's not only affecting moddable gear IS a bug however that's not what a LOT of people are complaining about, the majority of people are complaining about the increase in cost in general, the increase in cost isn't hard to get around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elfindreams Posted February 14, 2013 Share Posted February 14, 2013 cash sinks exist in every game, just because you have to work to get around the cash sink now doesn't make it bad design the only thing that makes it "bad design" is the fact that it was nearly a year of it not being this way. If the repair costs were the same as they are now the whole time, it wouldn't be an issue I disagree. Cash sinks exist to offset cash creation due to mechanics. I.E. they make the economy balance out so there isn't hyperinflation. That is the only reason they exist in games. Because you can create money (through killing things/etc) there has to be a place money is destroyed. That can be through buying skills, legacy unlocks or the like. The only reason to increase a cash sink is if there is an in balance in the in game economy and you start seeing hyperinflation. (i.e. people having enough disposable income that even basic goods go for a lot of money) As far as I can tell from monitoring the GTN, no such imbalance currently exists. Hence why a change of this nature is completely unnecessary. In fact eliminating the dailies entirely would lessen the need for repair costs as there would be less credit faucets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elfindreams Posted February 14, 2013 Share Posted February 14, 2013 If you die a lot, then look at why you are dying, think of other things to do to increase your chance at success and then execute it. And they give many MANY ways for anyone to handle any situations. Group wiping, figure out why. Someone screwing you over, remove or fix the problem. Group not geared enough? Don't run that flashpoint/operation/heroic and go gear up. Its not that hard. Read much? I didn't complain about dying to much. I was pointing out that you don't need a money sink to provide additional feedback to keep people from wanting to die. It is inherent in the act itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Levity Posted February 14, 2013 Share Posted February 14, 2013 Money can be made in this game. I certainly have a decent pile of credits. Not everyone does. And it doesn't need to go back to the way it was. If using non-modded gear was costing ridiculous amounts in credits to repair, then that should be reduced, not everyone else's raised. If people aren't willing to try things and die then you get: - harsher reactions to clueless newbies (and that's already bad enough so making it worse is definitely not a good direction) - fewer attempts at ops bosses - fewer guilds doing progression ops There's no good reason to raise these costs. None. My guild, and countless other friends of mine and their guilds, will always push progression. So no I don't think fewer that many guilds will care like the ones who posted here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tortcat Posted February 14, 2013 Share Posted February 14, 2013 Again, why would ANYONE want to pay more for something? That's the issue in a nutshell. it's been this way for a year, now its much higher but I get no benefit form this ( nor does anyone of course). I cannot really understand why anyone would not have some issue with this. Perhaps next time you buy something in game, just pay double, as if paying alot more for the same thing you have had for a year doesn't matter then why not just pay more for everything? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthVenizen Posted February 14, 2013 Share Posted February 14, 2013 Read much? I didn't complain about dying to much. I was pointing out that you don't need a money sink to provide additional feedback to keep people from wanting to die. It is inherent in the act itself. Yes you do, there needs to be some penalty to death other then a wipe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamthehoyden Posted February 14, 2013 Share Posted February 14, 2013 My guild, and countless other friends of mine and their guilds, will always push progression. So no I don't think fewer that many guilds will care like the ones who posted here. I said fewer, not none. There will be some guilds who continue, but go check some of the other threads. A lot of guilds have suspended their ops till this is sorted out. That's fewer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justiceface Posted February 14, 2013 Share Posted February 14, 2013 the fact that it's not only affecting moddable gear IS a bug however that's not what a LOT of people are complaining about, the majority of people are complaining about the increase in cost in general, the increase in cost isn't hard to get around. Truth but he/she was replying to my posts and I mentioned the bugs. Also I don't see a good justification for this. No one is asking for free flying ponies, people don't like the change, the change isn't beneficial to the game and no one requested it. So I ask again, why not get rid of it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BJWyler Posted February 14, 2013 Share Posted February 14, 2013 (edited) Minus sides None. The only complaint I can come up with at all to this is "well I have plenty of money so who cares". Just because you are well off doesn't mean everyone else is. If you have enough money or a guild mechanism that means you aren't affected by this then this decision doesn't affect you one way or another, so butt out. Actually inflation is the minus side. Again, repair costs are what are typically known as a gold sink. Without such sinks in the game, players who have more time to play and farm will begin to accrue a much larger sum of in game currency than the casual player. As a result, the player-driven costs of items is driven up as only those players are the ones paying the higher prices for those items. As a result, more and more items become unreachable for the casual player because they simply cannot make as much money in the same amount of time. I do work. SWTOR is a game. When it becomes "work", I'll quit. Hey that's my line (except for the quitting part)! But again, missing the point. That is two hours that are pointless. There is no challenge in doing what you propose. Hell I could probably code a bot to do it if I were so inclined. I.E. bad game design. No - that's the core of MMO design. Grind and treadmills are what keep people playing (and paying). There have been variations throughout the years, but the core essence of MMO gameplay is treadmills. BJ Edited February 14, 2013 by BJWyler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthVenizen Posted February 14, 2013 Share Posted February 14, 2013 Again, why would ANYONE want to pay more for something? That's the issue in a nutshell. it's been this way for a year, now its much higher but I get no benefit form this ( nor does anyone of course). I cannot really understand why anyone would not have some issue with this. Perhaps next time you buy something in game, just pay double, as if paying alot more for the same thing you have had for a year doesn't matter then why not just pay more for everything? credits aren't hard to get in this game, this increase in price is negligible, i will repeat again, if the prices were this way from the start, no one would be complaining now, you just got used to the easy nature and are crying about it being slightly harder now. less QQ pls Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ceyvel Posted February 14, 2013 Share Posted February 14, 2013 (edited) GM here as well, and it is not an issue for us. Essentially, the guild bank is available for repairs but everyone has a cap on how much they can use in repairs per week. That coupled with players diligently contributing to the bank on a weekly basis makes the repair costs a mild annoyance nothing more. So... essentially, the guild and players are dividing up the hit and it isn't a huge deal at the moment. Ops are running as scheduled. Absolutely the same situation here. Moreover, we came to consensus, that higher cost of a failure across-the-board makes us want to perform better. We can all agree that death had a fairly insignificant penalty in this game, prior to the patch. Most of guildies find themselves trying to avoid death more often now and the majority of us are happy about it. I don't see why it sounds so surprising to some people. Edited February 14, 2013 by Ceyvel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larity Posted February 14, 2013 Share Posted February 14, 2013 I get it. Reading is hard. So i'll repeat myself. The change is only for moddable gear, the change is not just affecting moddable gear. Most of the community doesnt want it, most of the community seems to hate it. What is the justification for the change? I get it, reading is hard, so I'll write what the patch notes said for you. "Item sell values and item repair costs now reflect the value of the items and any enhancements attached to them. Previously, items were incorrectly being valued without their enhancements." It doesn't specify modable gear but it mentions enhancements add to the price now too. You can augment any gear (except the matrix shard) I know its a broad statement, but its not as simple as saying "MODABLE GEAR ONLY" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScarletBlaze Posted February 14, 2013 Share Posted February 14, 2013 (edited) There can be reasons out of a person's control they are dying. I used to die more than I do now. The major reason was my computer lagged a lot. Some people don't have the luxury of being able to purchase a new computer like I did so this is something beyond their control. We can't blame the person who is dying more than someone else without looking at the reasons. If you lag your actions are slowed down. I have heard pros and cons about the repair costs and maybe it is something they need to look into. If too many people are saying the costs are out of hand it will not hurt them to check into. Yes some of us have a great guild but some of us don't and some of us can't play as much as the next person. All this should be taken into consideration with regard to the repair costs. Edited February 14, 2013 by ScarletBlaze Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthVenizen Posted February 14, 2013 Share Posted February 14, 2013 Absolutely the same situation here. Moreover, we came to consensus, that higher cost of a failure across-the-board makes us want to perform better. We can all agree that death had a fairly insignificant penalty in this game, prior to the patch. Most of guildies find themselves trying to avoid death more often now and the majority are happy about it. this, it encourages tighter play, it encourages better play. No penalties means "if i die so what" penalties means "I can't die unless i want to be punished" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthVenizen Posted February 14, 2013 Share Posted February 14, 2013 If you die a lot, then look at why you are dying, think of other things to do to increase your chance at success and then execute it. There can be reasons out of a person's control they are dying. I used to die more than I do now. The major reason was my computer lagged a lot. Some people don't have the luxury of being able to purchase a new computer like I did so this is something beyond their control. We can't blame the person who is dying more than someone else without looking at the reasons. If you lag your actions are slowed down. having a poor computer is 100% in someones control *** are you talking about Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TUXs Posted February 14, 2013 Share Posted February 14, 2013 Then quit, because if you can't handle 10-30k credits, I'm sorry, you shouldn't be wearing that gear. It's not like running the dailies one time a week will settle the bill for a week. Or that you make 400-600k from a run. No, not at all. You're telling me to quit because I don't find grinding daily missions "fun"? And no...you do not make 400-600k from a run. Not even close. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthVenizen Posted February 14, 2013 Share Posted February 14, 2013 (edited) You're telling me to quit because I don't find grinding daily missions "fun"? And no...you do not make 400-600k from a run. Not even close. from a full run of dalies, every planet yes you do, he even provided the numbers Edited February 14, 2013 by DarthVenizen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZavienUK Posted February 14, 2013 Share Posted February 14, 2013 1. People are more hostile towards new players in flashpoints. Due to increased repair costs people are less forgiving of new players in flashpoints whose mistakes cause wipes. Instead of explaining the issues and working with the player people will just be kicked because nobody wants to pay 10k a wipe because of a single player. 3. Casual players can't afford it. If a person wants to only play a few hours a week and do some ops/HM's they have to spend most of their other time running dailies. Dailies are boring and grindy and nobody wants to spend half their time running them just to fund their other activities. I'm sorry I have not read the whole thread (it's long - which is reassuring sign!), but wanted to jump in to say these are the ones that effect me personally as a casual player. So a new player messes up - but instead of being given the chance to learn they get kicked because the cost to teaching them is too high. But because they got kicked they couldn't learn and even if they don't get scared off they will never be able to learn. Vicious circle .... I'm in the category of 3 above - credit poor - and now have to run dalies just to afford to play the parts of the game I enjoy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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