Please be straight with me, dealing with problems like this is hard enough as it is without the unnecessary games.

"#41 While naval forces do still exist, shipyards (if you have any) can only repair, they cannot resupply. Fleet numbers are therefore static, note that this only applies to capital ships."

plus "Boarding craft and transports are pre-fielded, considering they are not supplier bound."

"Though if it had guns (which it does) the argument couldn't be made that it can fly around in space shooting down ships, all transports/boarding craft can do is perform the basic task of transportation and/or boarding vessels."

(edited out the does NOT because it does)

Yet "Actually I tell a lie it can considering that the Empire of Plagues has access to Vong shapers, so has full access to all Vong tech, including Tremas."

This final quote constitutes a violation Rule 41.....

#69 You cannot have all the vessels and must select a bomber, a fighter and an elite class. Bombers and fighters should be self-explanatory; elite can either be an “elite” starfighter or bomber, the classing of which will be up to the discretion of the Arbiter. It can also constitute a gunship of some kind, but cannot be a transport, which are provided.

Specifically the first part stats that you Cannot have ALL of the vessels your ships fielded.... by allowing this it comes dangerously close to a violation of rule 69.

#117 Permissible transports cannot be those considered advanced or otherwise heavily armed, and cannot be used in direct combat, only for self-defense. Noting that this does include basic boarding craft, as long as your chosen vessels are capable of fielding them.

This vehicle is in DIRECT conflict with Rule 117, specifically "Advanced" as well as the "cannont be used in direct combat" clauses.

Refer to the relevant rules in the rulebook, heck just give the thing a big read.

 

Relevant sections are:

 

Leadership

> Influence & Assets

 

Suppliers & Organisations

> Overview

> Battlegrounds Mode > Supplier > Organisation

 

Planets and Territories

>Additional Territory Resources

>Battlegrounds Mode

 

Miscellaneous

> #57, #108, #69, #117

 

Best course of action is just to apply logic. What you expect them to have in addition to what is specified. As I said before the general rule is all basic/necessary equipment will be available whether supplied or not. But I simply don't have the time or ability to go over every single faction and work out what they have in addition.

 

A little bit of player effort is going to be required here. Though you can always ask or look at the rulebook.

 

P.S. There is a difference between changing rules, and specifying them. The time will come where new rules will need to be created or other rules will be expanded on. It is not within my power to account for everything.

 

However this in particular was a rule I defined from the start, though it was not clear in the rulebook.

I did use my discretion, which is why I am asking, because clearly Common sense as to what would be against the rules and what isnt.... hasnt worked.

When I said "full access to Vong tech" I did not mean capital ships. The point I was trying to make here is that usually provided transports and boarding craft could not be used for attack. But obviously if you can affliate with transports and boarding craft with a supplier they would have full offensive capability.

To rationalise this in RL terms I'd say that without an affiliated supplier, transports and boarding craft would be weaponless. However if one did have a supplier, that supplier could outfit them with all the bells and whistles before they are deployed by the fleet.

And rule #69 specifically states that transports are provided, which I had every intention to including boarding craft which has now been explicitly specified in rule #117 to make this more clear - Yorik-trema I do not class as advanced. And as I have already said I do not class boarding craft transporting troops to enemy ships as direct combat.

When I said "full access to Vong tech" I did not mean capital ships. The point I was trying to make here is that usually provided transports and boarding craft could not be used for attack. But obviously if you can affliate with transports and boarding craft with a supplier they would have full offensive capability. To rationalise this in RL terms I'd say that without an affiliated supplier, transports and boarding craft would be weaponless. However if one did have a supplier, that supplier could outfit them with all the bells and whistles before they are deployed by the fleet.

 

And rule #69 specifically states that transports are provided, which I had every intention to including boarding craft which has now been explicitly specified in rule #117 to make this more clear - Yorik-trema I do not class as advanced.

I am also assuming you dont classify an IN COMBAT landing... to be "Direct conflict" in any way though conflict and combat are one and the same. You are going to need to specify what you call advanced then, cus to me anyting that bores a whole into a capital ship (essentially acting as another weapon in and of itself) constitutes the thing as advanced.... basic boarding ships land in hangars.....

Silenceo (as well as everyone else I am sure) is affiliated with suppliers that build guns and weapons and ships as well, why are they incapable of doing so? If you allow one you have to allow all, special treatment can not be given.... If both are capable of shooting again even if you dont constitute their use in combat as being used in "Direct conflict" there is little doubt that SHOOTing DOES constitute direct conflict. again Violation rule 117.

I am also assuming you dont classify an IN COMBAT landing... to be "Direct conflict" in any way though conflict and combat are one and the same. You are going to need to specify what you call advanced then, cus to me anyting that bores a whole into a capital ship (essentially acting as another weapon in and of itself) constitutes the thing as advanced.... basic boarding ships land in hangars.....

 

Silenceo (as well as everyone else I am sure) is affiliated with suppliers that build guns and weapons and ships as well, why are they incapable of doing so? If you allow one you have to allow all, special treatment can not be given.... If both are capable of shooting again even if you dont constitute their use in combat as being used in "Direct conflict" there is little doubt that SHOOTing DOES constitute direct conflict. again Violation rule 117.

However the real reason I am allowing boarding craft, is because I wan't people to be able to using boarding parties. The rules will and have therefore be altered to reflect that. If you actually manage to find any loopholes all I will do is edit the Rulebook to reflect this, because I have decided that I am allowing boarding craft.

Do not assume this is a case of "oh look boarding craft can be allowed by the rules". This is a case of me deciding boarding craft is allowed and altering the rules to reflect that. Very different.

What is advanced is going to be down to my discretion, unfortunately this is not something we can put a label on. I could just use the label "transport" but I'm sure even then that they're would be plenty exceptions to the rules.

Many boarding craft burrow through hulls:

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Droch-class_boarding_ship

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Imperial_Drill_Pod_Boarding_Craft

This is the basic boarding craft of the Vong fleet, assume for a moment that Warren did not opt for Vong shapers. Then she'd have no boarding craft and be at an unfair advantage as many of her opponents, including Silenceo, would.

Any transport/boarding craft with guns would not be allowed to use them, they wouldn't have them. I said that in the post you just quoted. Unless they have a supplier affiliated with them, then obviously they would get the full package.

EDIT: Understand that pretty much every transport has armament of some kind, so obviously this would be a thing.

Silenceo, as does everyone else, get everything that his suppliers can provide bar capital ships. I don't know why you assume I am making exceptions here, especially considering Silenceo has boarding craft of his own.

Beni, you yourself said we don't get garrisons from suppliers.

That means Warren would have to grow the ships first (Yea, Vong ships are grown) and Trench would have already obliterated her fleet.

Beni, you yourself said we don't get garrisons from suppliers.

 

That means Warren would have to grow the ships first (Yea, Vong ships are grown) and Trench would have already obliterated her fleet.

On top of that they are not supplier bound, with or without the supplier she'd still have them. All the supplier affliation means is that they come fully armed, again it makes no sense to force someone to build something they need now.

I love how confident you are that Trench would win though, it hasn't been decided yet!

P.S. This applies to your faction to, without revealing anything. It will all be prefielded. Again this is important I feel because the space conflict is resolved in the first few hours whereas ground is on-going.

I know it applies to me, probably a bigger bonus for me than it is for Warren, I Still just think it's a tad OP.

Still, it's your call.

I know it applies to me, probably a bigger bonus for me than it is for Warren, I Still just think it's a tad OP.

 

Still, it's your call.

Even if you allowed it, Intelligence agencies would still be incredibly important... It is like the difference between a map trying to find where Atlantas might be, and having a GPS lock on the darn city. Day and night...

 

Also, the whole surprise factor of the vong ships, still wouldn't be completely negated because they still haven't fought them before due to no NJO characters, and don't kid yourself beni, even with everything but the Flagship advantage, the IDD still faces possible defeat due to the sheer MONSTER that thing is... Sure, there are plans to bring it down, but this runs into the same issue we faced earlier with the vong.

 

Do too much and they are completely UP, do too little and they are massively OP...

The favouritism comes in the aspect that the Vong supposedly know everything about the enemies ships, because they do. They were galactic Standard.

 

But again, picking Vong gives an unfair advantage in the fact that no one except the latest era actually knows of their existence. They bend the already ridiculously impossible laws of Physics in the Star Wars universe in a way that decimated much smaller fleets when the Vong actually invaded.

 

You say that Killiks not being able to pilot their own Vessels would be an insta win for the IDD, well every Faction bar those that have late NJO characters will be annihilated because Vong Tech aren't anywhere near normal starships. They generate Black Holes, they house massive beasts, they EAT SHIPS.

 

How is this remotely fair?

 

And no, before anyone accuses me of trying to Nerf Warren because I'm afraid of a good fleet, my fleet would Obliterate hers as Beni well knows (For one specific reason that I'm not getting into here.)

 

You bring in the universal tech rule because otherwise having one Era is going to **** you, well that's the case here. Having no NJO characters that could very well command a space battle has destroyed Silenceo, and that, in my opinion, isn't fair.

Sure. But that's a specific quality of the EoP.

As I always say, the Kaggath is not fair. There will be disadvantages and advantages and if we take the "fairness" principle too far we end up stifling conflict and creating illogical artificial results.

I certainly cannot agree to hampering rules changes on the EoP purely because it is of some peoples opinion that they are overpowered, that is not a valid reason for introducing rules totally unrelated to size and firepower. That is biased.

Though at this point I'm really not sure what your asking, just seems like a general rant.

P.S. Silenceo seems to be intact.

I don't understand, the Empire of Plagues has no more knowledge of the enemy that the IDD has them, aside from what they can initially gauge through sight alone. Will the EoP have an easier time identiying the enemy vessels?

 

Sure. But that's a specific quality of the EoP.

 

As I always say, the Kaggath is not fair. There will be disadvantages and advantages and if we take the "fairness" principle too far we end up stifling conflict and creating illogical artificial results.

 

I certainly cannot agree to hampering rules changes on the EoP purely because it is of some peoples opinion that they are overpowered, that is not a valid reason for introducing rules totally unrelated to size and firepower. That is biased.

 

Though at this point I'm really not sure what your asking, just seems like a general rant.

 

P.S. Silenceo seems to be intact.

But that's the thing, Lomi Plo is the commander of the EoP fleet supposedly, and she knows of how those shield generators work, the metal that would be used to take out the Hull, the reliance that every Imperial Ship in history has had on Bridges.

She's know exactly how their point defense laser systems work, know that they could be used against the Vong's plasma canons, and she knows every tactic the Imperials and Alliance in general ever used to combat the Vong.

You have the Universal Tech rule in place to make sure there's no major discrepancies in terms of firepower, well, in terms of the Vong, they weren't that different. Their power came from the fact that no one knew anything about their ships at all.

THE ENTIRE KILLIK FLEET KNOWS ABOUT THE IDD. They have a Hive mind with information that spans Millenia, I'm not sure how you don't understand this.

Everything about the IDD ships and trench is known to the EoP, and you won't even allow Trench to know the basics of Vong technology? Well, to quote you...

That is biased.

I don't understand, the Empire of Plagues has no more knowledge of the enemy that the IDD has them, aside from what they can initially gauge through sight alone. Will the EoP have an easier time identiying the enemy vessels?

 

The difference is that the Vong have faced Imperial ships before and already have pre-made plans to use against them. And while the IDD's ships have faced the Vong before, none of their members have, and like Sel said, this seems to run into a similar issue as the Universal Tech rule. Something tells me there should be a Universal Public Knowledge rule so that people from say, The Sith Wars, are completely not unable to fight Vong or the Empire because they themselves were never present in those times. When I say Public Knowledge, I mean the very basics, not the ships weaknesses unless they too were widely known, but things like the vong are organic, the empire is tyranical, the republic was democrat, ect ect.

 

Sure. But that's a specific quality of the EoP.

 

As I always say, the Kaggath is not fair. There will be disadvantages and advantages and if we take the "fairness" principle too far we end up stifling conflict and creating illogical artificial results.

 

The Vong already have plenty of advantages that have been warned against before, and while I seem to be doing alright against them, does not mean they are not extremely powerful. Any faction with a NJO character will be severely more effective, even if they ordinarily much less skilled of tacticians, simply due to the fact they know the basic capabilities. Again, reminds me of the Universal Tech Rule.

 

I certainly cannot agree to hampering rules changes on the EoP purely because it is of some peoples opinion that they are overpowered, that is not a valid reason for introducing rules totally unrelated to size and firepower. That is biased.

 

"Some people" ? Nearly every single one of us expressed some unease about allowing Vong, and while I think they are not as OP as people think, they are still a bit OP. *Just in case anyone has asked, yes, I have read the entire Vong war...Chewie...Anakin...Jacen...Nom Anor...all of it. Even Lord Nyax.*

 

Though at this point I'm really not sure what your asking, just seems like a general rant.

 

We are asking that we are not penalized simply because of what era our units are from, which makes them automatically inferior not due to tech, but due to lack of information.

 

P.S. Silenceo seems to be intact.

 

I seem to have lost an arm, and I can not find my other photoreceptor...Other wise, yes.

Responses above in Gray. As usual.

I'm not sure I understand the reason for this conflict. I mean, last I checked we had found an exploitable weakness in the Vong and Silenceo had created a viable strategy to defeat them. Is this no longer the case?

He is trying to turn Trench into a bumbling idiot who doesn't even know the Vong have organic ships...let alone anything beyond that...

I propose the creation of a new rule called, Universal Public Knowledge.

Meaning: Anything at anytime in galactic history related to the opposing faction that was public knowledge, the other faction will know. Ex.

Vong used organic ships

Empire used Star Destroyers

Vong had Black Holes for shields

Empire used the TIE series star fighters almost exclusively

If something like this was fleshed out and put into place, it would server similar to the Universal Tech Rule, but only with knowledge. Meaning that Revan would not be totally out classed by Imperial Commander 02456 simply due to the fact Revan knows exactly nothing about the enemy ships.

He is trying to turn Trench into a bumbling idiot who doesn't even know the Vong have organic ships...let alone anything beyond that...

That's because Trench wouldn't know that. He isn't making him a bumbling idiot, he's taking Trench's canonical knowledge and not giving him things he wouldn't know. He is keeping him in character, or autonomous- the biggest feature in the kaggath.

Meaning that Revan would not be totally out classed by Imperial Commander 02456 simply due to the fact Revan knows exactly nothing about the enemy ships.

Pfft, that's why I have W.... Never mind.

That's because Trench wouldn't know that. He isn't making him a bumbling idiot, he's taking Trench's canonical knowledge and not giving him things he wouldn't know. He is keeping him in character, or autonomous- the biggest feature in the kaggath.

It technically should be covered in rule #104 I believe it was that allows the opposing faction to know general things concerning their forces. Having ships be organic instead of mechanical is practically at the very tip top of that list. Seeing how it is the very basis of all Vong tech...

#104 Combatants have limited knowledge of their opponents. They are only aware of the nature of the enemies Head of State and Second-in-Command, not their allies of whom they do not know exist, finally they are aware of the size and firepower of military forces.

#105 Anything deemed secret/confidential within the Star Wars universe will remain so in the Kaggath, unless there are explicitly exceptional circumstances that demonstrate otherwise. Such secrets can be internal as well, such as the secrets of one’s allies or forces.

The word Nature here is assuredly falling under rule 104 that they know of the Vong ships and the NATURE of those ships.

Looking through the rules, I am not seeing it saying we CANT have chosen Executor's any more other then its number of guns.... nor do I see a ban on super weapons out side of Naval Super weapons (which considering the Legacy could (and should) very well fall under that catagory). I could have sworn there was a ban on super weapons acrossed the board because......

http://www.swtor.com/community/showpost.php?p=7467379&postcount=77

and

http://www.swtor.com/community/showpost.php?p=7467580&postcount=80

which I believe SOME of these virus's such as the 3. Gobindi Virus and the 4. Project I71A seem similar to the discussed Blue Shadow virus, ESPECIALLY Project I71A since both were airborne. In Fact Project I71A is might be WORSE super weapon because it not only "kills" but converts. If any one remembers the debate in question.

I must admit, I was terrible with that.

I saw the virus coming, and I chose not to do anything about it because I knew it was Warren and I'd challenged her faction enough as it is. But agreed.

However we can't change it now, so I guess we just have to deal with it.

Though I know how I'M dealing with it...

I must admit, I was terrible with that.

 

I saw the virus coming, and I chose not to do anything about it because I knew it was Warren and I'd challenged her faction enough as it is. But agreed.

 

However we can't change it now, so I guess we just have to deal with it.

 

Though I know how I'M dealing with it...

I know how I am dealing with it...

EoP wins

/kaggath.

I know how I am dealing with it...

 

 

EoP wins

 

/kaggath.

XD

Nah, I've managed to turn it into a weapon against the EoP if my faction ever faces her.... Looking forward to it.

XD

 

Nah, I've managed to turn it into a weapon against the EoP if my faction ever faces her.... Looking forward to it.

you hope.... hopefully who ever is arbitery your match, doesnt just say you cant.

you hope.... hopefully who ever is arbitery your match, doesnt just say you cant.

Nah, it's Genius, trust me.

And I plan to tell Rayla it if she ever faces Warren, cause she can do it too...

You'd be so proud of me Tune