If this keeps up, this Kaggath 'ill be longer then the Revan vs Traya. lol

Alright Beni: END IT

I think we've all made our points here.

The TOR Republic is weak compared to the Galactic Empire. The GE has the largest fleet in history. Death Squadron was the strongest fleet to ever exist. They have nearly limitless troops, far superior ships (the only good ship the SE has here is the Spear), better vehicles, and better industry. On industry, I'm talking the Kuat Drive Yards. That shipyard is a monster, capable of producing SD's quickly. Not to mention Tarkin's Maw Installation which would act as a secret facility. I believe that's where the Death Star was built.

 

The SE's biggest threat to the GE is their Sith. And I've already shown how the GE takes care of the Sith. The Shadow Guard and Sovereign Protectors can handle your average Sith Warrior, which is what the "Sith Army" is mostly comprised of. The Dark Troopers can also handle Sith, being comprised of Phrik Alloy and all that. They also have the 501st legion, which as we have seen has experience with Force users.

 

On the topic of the Rebellion defeating the Galactic Empire. Yeah, they won. But they were losing most of the time. They won through guerilla tactics. The MO of the Sith Empire is the same as the Galactic Empire: overwhelming firepower. Except the GE does it better.

 

The Galactic Empire wins this through sheer firepower and Sidious' Battle Meditation.

 

PS. Experimenting with the new color

I thought the Rebellion where winning the Galactic Civil War. Many posts back Wolfninjajedi posted the amount of battles won by either side during the war and the Rebellion came out on top. And concerning the TOR Republic vs Galactic Empire - the lack of Force users kinda balances it out. Yes the Empire had its elite special forces, but they did not outnumber the Sith - and many Sith lords were stronger than all tiers of the Special Forces. Who would be hard pressed to tackle all the Sith at every front. There lack of Force sensitivity also made them all the more susceptible to Force powers.

But lets look at SF flaws a little deeper, seeing as as I combed through the posts I noticed nobody had made any real effort to counter it. And I do hate insta wins...

Phase Zero Dark Trooper: Suffered from mental instability which drove many to suicide, not all survived the conversion process and are wearing nothing a good lightsaber couldn't cut through.

Phase II Dark Trooper: Its a droid for one, and they never did too well against Jedi... adaptability is unlikely and most likely susceptible to ion-based attacks. Their production relied on the production facility 'Arc Hammer' - a dreadnought factory ship which cruised the galaxy creating dark troopers. There are countless ways it could be taken down, Imperial Intelligence would discover its existence soon enough and Cipher 9 could infiltrate it and destroy it (much like Theron Shan did to the Ascendant Spear) or the Spear itself could hunt it down and destroy it. Its 0.5 hyperdrive would certainly aid it in such a mission. They were also expensive and not as mass producible as say a B2 battle droid - which they would need to be to counter thousands of Sith.

Phase III Dark Trooper: never got past experimental stage. Of course being at the height of their power the Galactic Empire could still produce them, but they'd have to be fully developed first and then manufactured - and they look rather expensive so I doubt we'd be seen them in the hundreds... Not to mention the fact that a Moff wearing an exoskelton of it was defeated by Kyle Katarn, before he became a Jedi. Force users can destroy them. And once again they rely on the Arc Hammer so production wouldn't last very long.

Concerning the Arc Hammer though, and Dark Trooper construction facilities as a whole. They could be rebuit, however it would cost billions of imperial credits, and time to do so. And then the SE could blow it up again - if anything it will be a drain on their resources, and probably do more harm than good.

Shadow Stormtroopers: Were not Force sensitive and did not use Force stealth so they could be detected by the Force by practically all Sith as it was one of the first things taught by any Force initiate. And many would have been more skilled in it than others, and be able to sense Shadow troopers long before they struck. Their armour was apparently reinforced with Durasteel fiber, but lightsabers can cut through durasteel and force lightning just doesn't care - and if that fails there's always an old fashioned force push. So they would not last much longer than a stormtrooper in battle, nor would they be much more effective.

Storm Commandos: were not designed to kill Sith or other powerful foes but to infiltrate and disrupt and mainly to counter Rebel tactics, which the SE would not be using. They may be effective at countering SE instigated rebellions, but that's about it. There no different to Imperial Agents and SE special forces - and the Empire has plenty of them

Stormtrooper commanders: "Despite their training and advanced technology, the commanders were ultimately ineffective against powerful Force wielders" They were no different from Imperial Commandos apart from those mini-shield generators, however seeing as they tended to maitain distance from the enemy they are unlikely to encounter any Sith unless they are losing - in which case they would be overwhelmed. And unlike Imperial Commandos they have little experience with Force users (which applies for to the Storm Commandos also)

Emperor's Shadow Guard: were an elite organisation and therefore by definition did not fight on the frontlines and were relatively small in size. So they would be ineffective in full scale warfare where Sith are going to be found. Inflitration and assassination are their specialty, but were do you start when their are thousands of this running about the place? Its like trying to assassinate the entire Jedi Order, one by one. We also have to consider their abilities. Their control of the Force was minimal as Sidious feared powerful force users so your average Sith Lord is going to be stronger. As is your average marauder. So their effectiveness will be minimal. Not to mention the fact that they are countered by the Imperial Guard, who unlike the Shadow Guard, fought on the front lines and were also trained to kill Force sensitives (they also had greater numbers)

Imperial Sovereign Protector: Same as above. Small group, inferior to Sith Lords and Marauders and mainly employed as Guardsmen. Can also be countered by the Imperial Guard.

P.S. Insert friendly-lighthearted-comment-entirely-out-of-tune-with-the-aggressive-arguments-above here

If this keeps up, this Kaggath 'ill be longer then the Revan vs Traya. lol

 

Alright Beni: END IT

 

I think we've all made our points here.

Of course, time to wrap this thead up people. For I by no means am attempting to keep this thread going so it will be longer than the Revan vs Traya thread as so boost my ego.

(IGNORE THE ABOVE! KEEP DEBATING!)

The winner will be announced tommorow once I've had a chance to tally up all the points - along with announcing of the Kaggath Tournament brackets!

Can't wait!

Would love to see who Traya gets pitted against.

Beni, before you announce the winner I think you should take into account a few very important points.

1. The Galactic Empire has the most ships (20,000 Star Destroyers, a couple thousand ISD II's and a few dozen SSD's). The Ascendant Spear can't be everywhere at once, and wherever it isn't is pretty much a guaranteed space victory for the Galactic Empire. And how many SSD's can the Spear take out before it is overwhelmed? Pit it and an SE fleet against Death Squadron and you will find Death Squadron come out on top. Death Squadron was the most powerful assembly of ships in galactic history for a reason.

2. If the Galactic Empire wins in space (which is highly likely), they don't even need to engage on the ground because they can just bombard the SE ground forces. Shielded objectives will prove more difficult, but not every SE world is going to be shielded.

3. The Kuat Drive Yards can pump out ships at an alarming rate, allowing the Galactic Empire to replace any lost ships very quickly. The other shipyards and manufacturing centers can build the Empire's weapons much faster than the SE's facilities.

4. You pointed out previously that the Ascendant Spear can go looking for Ron Moch. And while it does that, the rest of the SE fleet is a bunch of sitting ducks.

Just a few points, but they make a big difference.

The winner will be announced tommorow once I've had a chance to tally up all the points - along with announcing of the Kaggath Tournament brackets!

Sweet! I have one suggestion for the Kaggath tournement: make it big.

I'm excited to see how it turns out. I'm curious: how do these tallys work? It doesn't sound like the best way to decide who won.

Whether it is a 'superweapon' or not is debatable. It certainly doesn't compare the the Death Star or the Galaxy Gun. And according to many people here the Executor and other SSDs could take out the Ascendant Spear. So if the Spear is banned, I would have to ban the Executor and SSDs as well. But I decided to deem both able to fight.

 

And then Forces storms - I'm afraid this falls into the category of 'superweapon', not only is the ability to rip holes in the space-time continuum to create massive wormholes, capable of transporting ships across thousands of light years or tear them apart, and devastate entire planets, and transport the user forward in time,completely ridiculous and flying in the face of all established canon, but its more powerful than 10 Death Stars combined and is basically an insta-win button in every and any duel. Banned, banned, banned. What next EU writers? Time tra- oh wait you've done that one...

Fair enough on the force storms, however, if we're ruling out abilities on the combatants sides we must then rule out the SE Emperor's sith ritual. My impression from your comments on the Spear was that it was basically invincible, if it can be taken out by SSDs I'll concede the point. However, single handeldly soloing fleets or planetary defense systems (if it can do this) certainly seems a bit super weaponish to me:)

Not so, this only really applies to the GE who have only had SDs and SSDs for 10 or so years. The Harrower class dreadnought (the vanguard of the imperial navy) was designed by Odile Vaiken only decades after the SE settled on Dromund Kaas. So it has been in the Imperial Navy for over a 1000 years and likely improved upon and perfected over that period. The same can be said of their fighters. Unlike the TIE-series fighter which only ever had one design (other designs never got past experimental stage to my knowledge) the Supermacy-class starfighter had reached Mark VI. So we can assume the design has been perfected over 1000 years to be the paragon of starfighter technology possible at the time and on a mass produceable scale. While the Harrower was the paragon of dreadnought technology at the time.

I entirely agree with you here, however in this series technology doesn't count (SDs and Harrowers both seem to be quite advanced for their time) . My point was based entirely on the size of the respective forces, in which years of preparation don't have much of an impact. From what I recall, one Harrower costs the entire output of a mining colony in a year, so they won't have many of them and probably would strip older models for parts.

Well, the fleet protecting Endor was massive - excessive even. I don't think you could have been more overprepared. If he had any more they be bumping into each other, literally (you can't fit 20,000 SDs and 30 SSDs over one planet)

 

We're talking the Vader and Sidious (with full on battle meditation), the Death Star II, the Executor, a communications ship, 2 battlecruisers, 34 SDs and hundreds of starfighters.

Well that's my point, it's a massive fleet and barely makes a dent in the size of the GE's forces. They've got 20 000 of the things

EDIT: Sorry, I didn't read the finishing up post when I posted. Thanks for organising these, have been fun to read and occasionally comment on

Sweet! I have one suggestion for the Kaggath tournement: make it big.

 

I'm excited to see how it turns out. I'm curious: how do these tallys work? It doesn't sound like the best way to decide who won.

I basically go over each post one-by-one, awarding 1 or 2 points based on the credibility of argument and whether it was effectively countered or not. After that I have to take into account endgame moves, playing scenarios over in my head etc to see if the one with the most points is actually capable of winning in a logical scenario. Then I add 20 points to my favourite (just kidding, honest)

And yes, I intend to make it big. Tri-battles are involved

Anyone wanna give a final post in favour of the SE?

Sure why not:

1. They'v got Sith. Lots of 'em. They're excellent fighters AND leaders.

2. They've got 60%-50% of the galaxy. May not be as big as the GE's, but they've been making ships for a thousand years.

3. They've got VItiate who can brainwash people with ease.

4. They've got veteran soldiers due to the Great Galactic War which lasted 28 years I believe.

5. They've got plenty of war droids and super soldiers such as the Power Guard.

6. Vitaite is excellent at corrupting governments. He prooved this at the begining of the Great Galactic War. (watch the Onslaught of the Empire timeline for proof)

7. There intelligence is beast due to people like Cipher Nine.

8. Dread Masters.

9. Dark Council.

EDIT:

10. >Appearently< the SE had a ship full of HK-51s. Those guys are game changers. I needn't say more.

There you have it.

I basically go over each post one-by-one, awarding 1 or 2 points based on the credibility of argument and whether it was effectively countered or not. After that I have to take into account endgame moves, playing scenarios over in my head etc to see if the one with the most points is actually capable of winning in a logical scenario. Then I add 20 points to my favourite (just kidding, honest)

 

And yes, I intend to make it big. Tri-battles are involved

Awarding points for posts? Can't say I think that's a fair way to judge. I feel like that could lead to which ever side posted more. That's not the point.

But you are the K-God after all.

Awarding points for posts? Can't say I think that's a fair way to judge. I feel like that could lead to which ever side posted more. That's not the point.

 

But you are the K-God after all.

Its not a voting system, its based on credibility of posts. Some posts just made the same arguments are were ignored. I'll read a post and if the argument is decent, it gets a point, if its very good, it gets two points. And people elaborating on the argument gives it more points. So a point like the SE has Sith which are tough - is a decent point. But that can be elaborated on in many ways which gets more points. Just like a point saying the GE has loads of ships can be elaborated on in many ways and get more points. And in some cases points are taken away if arguments are destroyed/countered.

Its not a voting system, its based on credibility of posts. Some posts just made the same arguments are were ignored. I'll read a post and if the argument is decent, it gets a point, if its very good, it gets two points. And people elaborating on the argument gives it more points. So a point like the SE has Sith which are tough - is a decent point. But that can be elaborated on in many ways which gets more points. Just like a point saying the GE has loads of ships can be elaborated on in many ways and get more points. And in some cases points are taken away if arguments are destroyed/countered.

OK that sounds better I guess.

Its not a voting system, its based on credibility of posts. Some posts just made the same arguments are were ignored. I'll read a post and if the argument is decent, it gets a point, if its very good, it gets two points. And people elaborating on the argument gives it more points. So a point like the SE has Sith which are tough - is a decent point. But that can be elaborated on in many ways which gets more points. Just like a point saying the GE has loads of ships can be elaborated on in many ways and get more points. And in some cases points are taken away if arguments are destroyed/countered.

That's pretty fair. Alot of fact-checking will be involved, am I right?

I demand the winner to be announced ASAP!

That's pretty fair. Alot of fact-checking will be involved, am I right?

 

I demand the winner to be announced ASAP!

Of course, I can assure you that all Sidious' powers and various post-ROTJ shenanigans were checked extensively

Anyone wanna give a final post in favour of the SE?

Again, noone here seems to remember that SE had a ship full of HK-51s that could make a serious difference when dispatched to assassinate military commanders. Our HK says that if they were all activated, the war would be over in a matter of few years.

Again, noone here seems to remember that SE had a ship full of HK-51s that could make a serious difference when dispatched to assassinate military commanders. Our HK says that if they were all activated, the war would be over in a matter of few years.

He does... gotta do that mission (I expect he was exaggerating beeing HK-series and all) Fear not however, I notice all!

Of course, I can assure you that all Sidious' powers and various post-ROTJ shenanigans were checked extensively

Of course. Sidious is the real driving force for the Galactic Empire. While Tarkin would do just fine, the Imperial forces would lose heart without him. Just like the SE forces would dissolve into backstabbing without their Emperor.

Seems the bad guys are a whole lot better at killing each other than they are at killing the good guys. How many Sith Empires have arisen without backstabbing? I think only Exar Kun and the Banite Line. Could be wrong though.

Again, noone here seems to remember that SE had a ship full of HK-51s that could make a serious difference when dispatched to assassinate military commanders. Our HK says that if they were all activated, the war would be over in a matter of few years.

Did those HK's actually participate in the war? This is the SE at the height of their power, and IIRC that ship crashed before the HK's actually participated.

@ Beni: Would the HK's factor in if they didn't participate in the GGW?

Again, noone here seems to remember that SE had a ship full of HK-51s that could make a serious difference when dispatched to assassinate military commanders. Our HK says that if they were all activated, the war would be over in a matter of few years.

Since we didn't hear about it till Section X, it probably didn't make much of an impact in the SE/Republic war (if they even had it then). Combined with the fact everyone knows what they look like now, and the HKs only slight ego problem, I think their overall impact will be less. They can do damage yes, but they'll have to infiltrate ships on war time alert that know what/who they are.

Did those HK's actually participate in the war? This is the SE at the height of their power, and IIRC that ship crashed before the HK's actually participated.

I'm not sure when they got the HKs, but they crashed after the Dread masters were imprisoned as the crash was part of their attempt to escape. They were severly damaged in the crash, and I doubt that the SE or GE will have time to hunt down the parts to repair them.

Again, noone here seems to remember that SE had a ship full of HK-51s that could make a serious difference when dispatched to assassinate military commanders. Our HK says that if they were all activated, the war would be over in a matter of few years.

Seriously? That's yet another thing going for the SE (assuming this is legit).

Sure why not:

 

1. They'v got Sith. Lots of 'em. They're excellent fighters AND leaders.

 

2. They've got 60%-50% of the galaxy. May not be as big as the GE's, but they've been making ships for a thousand years.

 

3. They've got VItiate who can brainwash people with ease.

 

4. They've got veteran soldiers due to the Great Galactic War which lasted 28 years I believe.

 

5. They've got plenty of war droids and super soldiers such as the Power Guard.

 

6. Vitaite is excellent at corrupting governments. He prooved this at the begining of the Great Galactic War. (watch the Onslaught of the Empire timeline for proof)

 

7. There intelligence is beast due to people like Cipher Nine.

 

8. Dread Masters.

 

9. Dark Council.

 

There you have it.

Certainly not pushovers, that's a VERY credible list.

Since we didn't hear about it till Section X, it probably didn't make much of an impact in the SE/Republic war (if they even had it then). Combined with the fact everyone knows what they look like now, and the HKs only slight ego problem, I think their overall impact will be less. They can do damage yes, but they'll have to infiltrate ships on war time alert that know what/who they are.

Irrelevant seeing as the GE have no knowledge of them as far as I know.

Did those HK's actually participate in the war? This is the SE at the height of their power, and IIRC that ship crashed before the HK's actually participated.

 

@ Beni: Would the HK's factor in if they didn't participate in the GGW?

Doesn't matter when they got them. Its at the height of their power which basically means all the resources they ever possessed. Buuuut... seeing as the SE technically only acquired one (possibly four...) we can't add all the HKs to their power base. However there is nothing stopping the SE replicating the droid and creating more of their own - but like the Dark Trooper Project, this will take time.

Irrelevant seeing as the GE have no knowledge of them as far as I know.

Entirely relevant, as HKs were the inspiration for future assassin droids and thus well known in those circles (Sidious, Moffs, miltary screenlists, etc). Also, HK-47 is in Star Wars Galaxies (1 ABY I think) so that reinforces the notion that those interested know about the HKs. The first one might get through since they're not expecting it though.