Well, what I've noticed so far is that the tactical item that reduces cd of Slam in Vengeance when your DoT crits is a bit bugged - sometimes your cooldown disappears though it's still there. Edited July 23, 2019 by schinkar

3 mad dash charges but the cooldown is increased to 10-15 seconds seconds would be a good tactical

Juggernaut (Vengeance) feedback after playing it in ops:

• Cooldowns are buggy, sometimes the cooldown goes away at the right time but the ability is still unusable for a few more seconds, if I try to use it, it says it isn't ready yet.
  
• Guardians seem to be taking far more damage, either mitigation was reduced by a lot or the bosses are unbalanced. Either way, I feel like it is currently takes far too much damage in PvE.
  
• The new Warrior ability isn't very useful for DOT specs. Yes, for burst specs a 25% boost is nice, but on the DOT specs it doesn't buff some of the hard-hitting abilities and if used at full stacks, at least one is wasted on Sundering Assault.
  
• The extra utility point should be used anywhere rather than just the first tier. As is, it really doesn't help at all and might as well not be there, at least for Juggernaut.
  

I'll probably do more testing later but that's my opinions so far.

2 force charge charges is good where its at**** Edited July 24, 2019 by Delani

First of all, set bonuses seem lackluster atm, at least dps-wise, didn't check tanking. Compared to the inquisitor options for mix/matching different 2/4/6 pieces, there aren't a lot of options for jugg, and probably the best choice atm would be a 4p from the general sets, pve-wise.

The new ability seems decent, good buff (in vengeance) for hew (when it procs...) or impale.

Regarding some pve set bonuses, a more reliable hew proc would be welcomed.

From the utilities standpoint, I assume these are still in flux, and more will be added or at least redistributed.

The bug with the UI and cool downs makes everything seem off. It is hard to say how the game play is when everything seems off. For example, Embrace the Pain appears to do nothing, but if you keep spamming pressing the button it eventually triggers a second time. However the timing doesn't make sense for tank specs.

 

I understand that the balancing isn't finished, but as it stands now, my jugg tank feels much squishier than my sin co-tank.

 

The jugg set bonuses also seem unfinished compared to the sin.

 

=== General Observations / Bugs / Potential Issues ===

 

The Preserver's set bonus, regen 1% of your max health every 10s, is broken or has a type-o. It currently only regens 0.1%.

 

The new medpac, I assume the "tier 11" craftable one, has the almost the same HP gain as the current medpac. Given that our health has more than doubled it seems a bit low. When 5.0 launched the medpac healed almost 50% of the current max. In 258s it is closer to 33%. The new medpac heals less than 20% the current max help. When you power creep the gear between this expansion and the next one, that medpac will be a joke. PvPer's won't notice because the PvP medpac is % max health based.

 

When earning renown, you don't seem to earn legacy XP. I don't know if players earned legacy XP when earning command xp in the current system. It seems like a mistake if new players are punished for playing there max level toon.

 

=== PvE Jugg Immortal evaluation ===

 

This is very limited since we are missing a lot. The new style of set bonus and tactical is a more convoluted version of the old set bonus style. Instead of one source of gear augmenting 3 skills you have two sources of gear augmenting 2 skills and 2 static bonuses.

 

Enraged Defense doesn't seem to have scaled to the new max health. At some point after 5.0 launched it was scaled up to where it is on live. It probably needs to be adjusted again.

 

Most of your set bonuses and tacticals are bad for PvE Immortal Juggs. They either have no meaningful use, an underwhelming effect, or are just bad. Is the reason the set bonuses aren't finished because you can't think of 2 and 4 piece bonuses that a tank and a dps would both want? Who thought it would be a good idea to have so many generic warrior set bonuses followed up by generic jugg bonuses? Tanks and DPS have different priorities and limitations.

 

Interestingly the tactical shielding shadow, called Interceding Defense on the discussion page, was suppose to give a 5s CD reduction. In game it does not but it does give 0.5% more DR. This tactical only has use in PvP. The DR makes it possibly good for DPS, the 5s CD reduction made it useful for tanks. I am guessing the DR will NOT apply to guard damage.

 

Force Bound will be okay in PvP. It turns Intimidating Roar into something similar to carbonize. Both have advantages and disadvantages over the other. I feel like it will make IR useful. The set bonus is worthless in PvE since it doesn't affect enemies with boss immunity.

 

The undying is mediocre by itself and garbage in comparison to Sin spike DR. By itself, mad dash is a skill that offer 100% defense to an attack if you can correctly time it. The 20% DR after the dash only helps if you can't successfully time the dash. If the 2s of 100% defense wouldn't cover the entire attack, you would just use a better defensive. Compared to Sin spike DR:

-same 20% DR

-same duration 6s.

-CD of Spike is 20s. CD of Dash is 45s, 35 with utility.

-Spike has the added functions of damage (generally not used rotationally for damage though) and is a 2s stun.

--Dash has the added functions of damage (also not used rotationally for damage), is a movement skill and damage immunity.

-Spike will have little difficulty being weaving into a fight so long as the boss is in range and the Sin has force.

--Dash is tricky to use in some fights

 

Lord of Pain is part bad part dumb part underwhelming. For most boss fights this is just 5% DR on a 45s CD. It will shine on some fight, A&E for example will be more like 20%. The DR being tied to AoE taunt is going to be problematic. Some fights a misused AoE taunt might do a lot of harm, think Dread guards prior to burn. Finally, for the longest time Jugg tanks could do something no other tank could. We could pull a ludicrous amount of enemies, AoE taunt and Saber Reflect. How much damage will SR do if we have 100% DR? My money is on zero.

 

Jaw Breaker is bad. Our old 6p already extended the duration of invincible. This just does that in a significantly more convoluted way. Backhand is already functionally overloaded and mediocre (possibly the 2nd worst tank advanced class skill). Changing this to grants invincible for 5s would at least allow players to space out activations. Changing the backhand to Endure Pain would keep it tied to a skill that is in a similar function.

 

Leviathan's Hide is generally going to be a 2.5% DR. Right now this is probably the general tactical of choice. It's a little underwhelming but simple and has potential.

 

Hoard's Makashi Strike is unnecessarily complicated for 5% DR. You are forcing a rotation to maintain max DR which is going to stop Retaliation on CD. This will cause Blade barricade to not have the possible 100% up time. We lost the old 2p so all of this is for a 3% DR gain.

 

Embrace the Pain creates a no option problem. Jugg tanks in PvE have self healing issues. I don't know if this is the best way to solve them but this tactical feels less optional more mandatory. I am happy to elaborate if you want. Please don't fix a fundamental flaw with gear, especially if that gear is suppose to create choices.

Are set bonuses supposed to stay that way? Only one bonus requiring 4 or 6 items? Edited July 25, 2019 by Mubrak

You can look at the inquisitor as an example. IIRC the spike DR set bonus is a 6p but it has a +2% shield and +2% absorb for 2p and 4p.

 

The major difference, most of the jugg set bonuses were universal warrior set bonuses. There were only 2 jugg specific set bonuses and even they were discipline neutral. My guess is trying to balance those 2p and 4p bonuses and keep them relevant is difficult.

I would just like to state as a general impression all the veng jug and jugg ability seem very meh. Not impressed. The fact that it's pretty much the same as the mara adds to this.

 

Very uninspired.

I would just like to state as a general impression all the veng jug and jugg ability seem very meh. Not impressed. The fact that it's pretty much the same as the mara adds to this.

 

Very uninspired.

 

For a new jugg ability, I wish they would add lightning ability or something. For Example, Shock stuns the enemy for 2 seconds.

Firstly, thank you for opening the PTS for some early testing. I really enjoyed it and I find it only natural that certain bugs were present. Thus I am not going to adress the bugged ability CDs. Literally every class had that on PTS, though it still was obviously pretty annoying.

 

Secondly, I didn't do any testing for the Immortal Juggernaut.

 

I liked Rabid Furor. If you put a bit of thought to it you can use it on your strongest abilities and I very much like the recharging process and how you can choose at how many stacks to use it. That makes it a flexible boost to some hard-hitting abilities providing burst that IMO comes in much needed for Vengeance and nicely for Rage. But please, consider giving it another Icon than the one used for Enrage. It was kind of distracting and it's just a bit unnecessary considering how many other Icons are available.

 

For the tacticals, there seem to be some that are *extremely* situational ones I would never bother to farm for on live (like Keep Away with finishing Force Push CD on activating Saber Ward) and some that are quite a bit stronger in comparison (f.ex. Bloody Vengeance with its shortening of the Vengeful Slam CD on DoT-crits had me spamming nothing but Vengeful Slam on Grob'Thok and Corrupter Zero). All in all however I was fine with the Jugg tacticals.

 

The Set bonuses were something I didn't really like, especially after having seen the ones for the Inquisitor. That's because the Inquisitor has some 2/4/6 and 2/4 set bonuses which enables you to combine them, with the 2/4 set bonus oftentimes giving a X%-Boost to one of your stat points (Mastery, Power, Crit Rating, Alac,...). The Juggernaut and Warrior by enlarge doesn't have that. There seem to be exclusively 4- or 6-p set bonuses giving some rather questionable bonuses (I did enjoy two-charged Force Charge but some others seemed a bit meh). That just leaves me asking why there aren't these kind of percentage-based boosts as 2p-bonuses on the sets for Juggernaut/Warrior?

 

Sorry if I elaborated a bit much here, might not be 100% condenced.

I have a suggestion for new Juggernaut tactical:

 

Echoing Scream: Force Scream reverberates to four enemies in front of the Juggernaut. The first target takes 100% damage, the second target 50% damage, the third 25% damage and the fourth 12.5% damage. Weak opponents are are knocked back and normal opponents are feared for 3 seconds.

 

Generally, I feel the juggernaut tactical abilities lack color - something like this is more interesting.

What will be the fate of the Absorb Shield (AS) from Force Scream?

 

I mention Enraged Defense and medpac not being scaled in an earlier post. I started to wonder if the absorb shield from Force Scream scaled? I remembered that Enraged Defense wasn't scaled correctly at the start of 5.0 so I wondered if the AS from Scream was scaled for 5.0 as well.

 

I asked around for some sample numbers from players in 1.0. Typical NiM Jugg health was about 20k the AS from scream was about 1.2k. This means the scream AS was equal to about 6% of the Jugg's max HP. In 5.10 tank HP ranges from 130k to 140k, lets say 135k. My scream AS is about 4.5k (rounding up). This is about 3% of the max HP. I assume my power affects the scream AS. The meta currently favors all lethal mods which means the scaled difference from 1.0 to 5.10 is even greater. I didn't think to grab values for the scream AS when I was testing things.

 

With all the possibilities for absorb shields, will there be a change to the way absorb shields work? Right now in live, I think all the different sources of AS are incompatible with each other. Meaning the Sorc bubble doesn't stack with scream AS. There are rumors of additional sources of AS coming to tanks and healers, what is the compatibility plan?

 

I would love to see some kind of 3rd bar added that is just AS. It could have an out of combat value of 0 and the the current AS skills just add to it. You could even give it out of combat decay and hard cap like Warrior/Knight class resource.

 

One final consideration for AS. As I understand it, the current system is any time you take damage, it is instantly deducted from your AS then mitigation is applied. So in the case of were you would defend an attack (take 0 damage) you would still lose AS then defend the attack. AS would be significantly more powerful if it took mitigation into account first. Maybe that would be overpowered though.

Edited July 26, 2019 by LeyDrewid

Tactical Item suggestion,

 

Force leap and interecede reset the cooldown of mad dash.

Tactical Item suggestion,

 

Force leap and interecede reset the cooldown of mad dash.

 

A new Rage Jugg tactic to get to a node fast or get out of dodge or to seperate a healer from a group

 

Mad dash - force leap - mad dash - force push - Force leap - mad dash = the other side of the map

(You could throw in intercede there too and and nearly have force leap off CD so you could keep going, lol)

Edited July 29, 2019 by TrixxieTriss

A new Rage Jugg tactic to get to a node fast or get out of dodge or to seperate a healer from a group

 

Mad dash - force leap - mad dash - force push - Force leap - mad dash = the other side of the map

(You could throw in intercede there too and and nearly have force leap off CD so you could keep going, lol)

 

Its a good tactical but so is grit teeth. The key with these tacticals is to diversify gameplay so that everyone isnt selecting the same one. Would you pick this tactical or grit teeth as a dps jugg?

After what I have seen for sniper who will have a type phase walk, I think that a jugg rage who can be easily control and stun (not like the mara fury who has gravity vortex), it's necessary in warzone to have a set bonus or a tactical item who give 30 meters range to obliterate. Otherwise explain me how a melee dps has a little chance against a range dps in warzone.

After what I have seen for sniper who will have a type phase walk, I think that a jugg rage who can be easily control and stun (not like the mara fury who has gravity vortex), it's necessary in warzone to have a set bonus or a tactical item who give 30 meters range to obliterate. Otherwise explain me how a melee dps has a little chance against a range dps in warzone.

 

30 meter obliterate LOL omg

So we get a 25% dmg/burst increase, cool I guess but so does mara and they still have their anti "leave me alone" button. Was hoping jugg would get something that don't make them the nr1 wrecked train in every SR game with the hordes of stealthers in there. Maybe adding more secs to saber reflect (the extra from talents is not enough as Anti) or something like that. Because mara just got another burst/dmg increase AND having their sick DR, force camo and what not. Ohh well.

 

Another buff to ED was welcomed but you will still be tunneled hard and killed before you can get that 2nd ED in SR.

Guess my dps jugg will just stay in regs unless I find myself a pocket healer.

And to those who will simply just answer this with "juggs are fine in SR l2p" just don't. I've played my jugg way long enough to know, seen and experienced what happens to us.

 

Did I win a couple of matches regardless if Veng or Rage spec? Sure but the majority of my games and what many others have said, not just KendraP who is one of the biggest guardian biased on the forums is enough proof =)

And to those who will simply just answer this with "juggs are fine in SR l2p" just don't. I've played my jugg way long enough to know, seen and experienced what happens to us.

 

I don't play juggs in pvp, so I'm not biased. You are correct. Juggs are quite difficult to succeed with consistently in solo ranked, because they have no escapes and are one of the easiest classes to focus and kill.

 

Another buff to ED was welcomed but you will still be tunneled hard and killed before you can get that 2nd ED in SR.

 

I'm pretty sure you will be able to get a second ED off, you'll just have to change the order of use for your dcds. Use the first ED when you get quite low, then use the rest of your cooldowns, and you should have another ED in like 25 seconds. You can definitely survive that long, especially if you play smart. I think dps juggs will become much more viable in solos with grit teeth.

Only if they scale ED, currently it is not a heal to full. We have more than double the health and ED only heals about 50%.

Only if they scale ED, currently it is not a heal to full. We have more than double the health and ED only heals about 50%.

 

You know what? I've become so jaded that as a guardian main since I started playing this game in the 1.x era, I hope they don't scale FD up again. I'd rather go back to being early 5.0 bad than deal with the "omg you're so OP" nonsense again.

You know what? I've become so jaded that as a guardian main since I started playing this game in the 1.x era, I hope they don't scale FD up again. I'd rather go back to being early 5.0 bad than deal with the "omg you're so OP" nonsense again.

 

speak for your self, you can feel jaded all you want. people will always find something to complain about, cant believe you don't know that..shocker:eek:{not:rolleyes:}.. anyway they need to bring it in line with the new health percentage we are going to have. bottom line.

My initial thoughts for Jugg (Vengeance / Rage) based on my test :

 

Tactical Items

 

 

Set Bonuses

 

 

Rabid Furor