Hello all!

Huge Star Wars fan here, finally quit that "other MMO" and I am loving STWOR after a few days.

Want to get into tanking in this game, primarly was melee dps in WoW. I love the look and style of Sith Assassin Tank, but I see lots of stuff in the forums about them not being very viable endgame?

So I'm thinking of rolling a Juggernaut instead. Just was wondering if anyone can provide a breakdown of the two classes, as well as the most effective crew skills for each. Thank you and I look forward to seeing you all roaming the galaxy!

Hello,

The Juggernaught is the clear choice here in the current rendition of the game.

Jugg in a Nutshell

• The most defensive cooldowns of any tank class

• Has leap to enemy and ally

• Has a shorter cd on interupt

• Wears heavy armor

• Provides raid wide barrier when aoe taunts

Assassin in a Nutshell

• Has the most upkeep of any class in the game. You need to be maintaining stacks of Kinetic Ward / Sith version or you will just die - this is in addition to maintaining threat and any other mechanics of the boss fight (this single thing is something other tanks just "have" by having heavy armor)

• Has to force speed to location at a slower cooldown than leap and isn't a teleport

• Has a longer cd on interupt

• You have 2 defensive cooldowns - and in NiM content your main one doesn't work... wah wah

• You can stealth rez... if you're not tanking something... which is almost never

• A lot of your "survivability" comes from self healing from your various abilities, however if you're already dead because the damage wasn't mitigated you can't exactly heal

This hopefully will change in the comming months but who knows!

Be a Biochem so that you get the reusable adrenals and medpacs. Then you can craft your own top grade stims. Buy grenades if you want to pvp.

Bio Analysis

Biochem

Diplomacy

Thanks for your input!

Are the assassins that bad? On paper, stealth, dual saber, and some lightning looks amazing to me, but that's a pretty glaring differential you've highlighted there.

He's right. Juggs/Guardians are the best in tanking atm. This is not because they are OP however, it is because the class is actually balanced and operating as it should. It's a fun class to play, especially in pvp as you have a ton of utility and versatility and you can fill all tanking roles incredibly well. You're a healers best friend, a capper's nightmare and Barry Sanders with the huttball. It's not easy mode, but it's not overly-complex to play either. It ultimately depends on your play style preference though. I've played one since early access (i opted not to ruin the story in beta) and I love it.

And don't forget about Vanguard tanks, as it seems everyone else has. I don't know anything about them honestly, but it's worth looking into.

@Reihon:

• Maintaining stacks of Kinetic Ward consists in clicking on one button about every 15 seconds. That's not a real disadvantage.

• Force Speed is in 95% of the cases better then the leap (they exception is twh which is the by far easiest Operation Boss atm)

• I can't think of a single thing in any Operation were 2 sec additonal cd on the Interrupt matters at all (feel free to tell me)

• In Nim content i have 4 cooldowns (if you count in vanish for multiple medpacks we have 5 cooldowns) which are all working perfectly. Force shroud got a huge buff, while switiching from hm to nim (deflection is now a bit worse but thats crippling juggernauts way more then sins)

Also the main defensive cooldown of a sin tank is overcharge saber (i don't know which one you meant)

• Assassins have a way higher migation then juggs. They will get far less damage on average then a jugg.

• Assassins also provide a 5% healing buff (which is better then the aoe shield from juggernauts)

Thanks for your input!

 

Are the assassins that bad? On paper, stealth, dual saber, and some lightning looks amazing to me, but that's a pretty glaring differential you've highlighted there.

I don't play an Assassin or Juggernaut (I just haven't finished leveling them yet, but I do play the Jedi equivalents). Assassins/Shadows have a very distinct coolness factor to their gear, weapons and abilities whereas Juggernauts/Guardians tend to be a lot of variations on hitting things with lightsabers (and a couple "yelling" abilities) and have Darth Vader-esque themes. As of right now Assassins have some issues in Endgame PvE stuff (they are susceptible to damage spikes which seem to be the predominant way of making Hard and Nightmare modes challenging), they are not un-usable so don't interpret it that way, but they definitely require more attention from the player controlling the tank and the tank's healers. Assassins are also very gear dependent when compared to Juggernauts, meaning that a Juggernaut can usually tank harder content with lower level gear but an Assassin can't. From my experience Juggernauts have a much easier and forgiving learning curve than Assassins do, Assassins are more difficult to master and will require either lots of attempts on Flashpoints/Operations or an experienced mentor to teach you the ropes.

As for stealth, in PvP I'm sure it's useful, but I rarely pvp so I can't comment on the full benefit of it. In Endgame PvE it depends on where you are as there are a decent number of stealth detecting mobs spread through the current Operations and it's pretty useless for a Tank on bosses. Where stealth truly shines is in leveling, as it lets you skip annoying mobs when you don't feel like fighting them.

Overall what I'm trying to say is this: Do you want hit things with your lightsaber or with the Force (either lightning, rocks, the Force itself, etc...)? Do you want to look Darth Maul or like Darth Vader? Do you want leap into the fray or sneak and/or run in? The choice is ultimately yours and I would probably recommend leveling both (when you have the time) and find which you like more (you can get a good feel for the class by about level 30ish if you want to save some time).

One personal note, if you use the Cartel Market the Cathar Warstaff is insanely cool for Assassins.

Regarding Force Speed: I tend to prefer Force Speed because 1) I can use it at any distance 2) it doesn't initiate combat. If I have to leap into a pack of enemies and get aggro, it's much easier to quickly establish control with Force Speed + Wither than Force Leap + Smash, because Force Leap + Smash takes an extra GCD and so much can happen in that extra GCD.

@Reihon:

• Assassins have a way higher migation then juggs. They will get far less damage on average then a jugg.

Do they really have higher mean mitigation? But besides that, even if their average mean mitigation is higher, they're virtually guaranteed to spike so hard sometimes that they push healers into lower resource regen tiers, which makes them less efficient for healing overall.

He's right. Juggs/Guardians are the best in tanking atm. This is not because they are OP however, it is because the class is actually balanced and operating as it should. It's a fun class to play, especially in pvp as you have a ton of utility and versatility and you can fill all tanking roles incredibly well. You're a healers best friend, a capper's nightmare and Barry Sanders with the huttball. It's not easy mode, but it's not overly-complex to play either. It ultimately depends on your play style preference though. I've played one since early access (i opted not to ruin the story in beta) and I love it.

 

And don't forget about Vanguard tanks, as it seems everyone else has. I don't know anything about them honestly, but it's worth looking into.

No...they are OP. Powertechs / Vanguards have no reason to exist atm except for those who can't handle more than one button.

Don't believe the people who claim Sins give a 5% boost to heals. They do...in theory, in practice? They don't. It's an ability called "Phase Walk" basically you cast it, and in the radius of its circle, there is a heal boost. Here is the deal breaker...many of them. Healers have to move on quite a few fights...most of them. It only lasts for so long, and when it's down, you can't go and drop it where your healers stand. So, in reality, it's a 5% increase to our self heals. While nice...I'd rather have something else.

Sins have three cool downs naturally. Sabre Ward, Force Shroud, and Over Charge sabre. Force Cloak is very hard to consider a cool down. It has its uses, but is far from something you could call a cool down...as it drops your agro. It -can- be used to interupt some channeled attacks. But not many. As for medpack...yeah no. Everyone can get that.

Bottom line, Assassin's are great tanks, Jugs are the best atm...but I still prefer my assassin. If your healers are poorly skilled, they will have more trouble with the assassin.

If you have to only pick one, pick jug. But the playstyle of the Sin is the most active, most fun. But numbers don't lie.

Edit: I also believe it's false that we have the highest mean mitigation atm...don't quote me though, it has been awhile. Also, we're no longer the most healing efficient either iirc.

No...they are OP. Powertechs / Vanguards have no reason to exist atm except for those who can't handle more than one button.

 

Don't believe the people who claim Sins give a 5% boost to heals. They do...in theory, in practice? They don't. It's an ability called "Phase Walk" basically you cast it, and in the radius of its circle, there is a heal boost. Here is the deal breaker...many of them. Healers have to move on quite a few fights...most of them. It only lasts for so long, and when it's down, you can't go and drop it where your healers stand. So, in reality, it's a 5% increase to our self heals. While nice...I'd rather have something else.

 

Sins have three cool downs naturally. Sabre Ward, Force Shroud, and Over Charge sabre. Force Cloak is very hard to consider a cool down. It has its uses, but is far from something you could call a cool down...as it drops your agro. It -can- be used to interupt some channeled attacks. But not many. As for medpack...yeah no. Everyone can get that.

 

Bottom line, Assassin's are great tanks, Jugs are the best atm...but I still prefer my assassin. If your healers are poorly skilled, they will have more trouble with the assassin.

 

If you have to only pick one, pick jug. But the playstyle of the Sin is the most active, most fun. But numbers don't lie.

 

Edit: I also believe it's false that we have the highest mean mitigation atm...don't quote me though, it has been awhile. Also, we're no longer the most healing efficient either iirc.

Every tank class can use 3-4 medpacks a fight? Just sins can do that. Don't forget that the armor adrenal gives by far the most benefit to assassin tanks (due to 110% armor increase talent).

I've wrote pages about the uses from phase walk. On Thrasher, Operation Chief, Olok, Cartel Warlords and Styrak u willl have a 70% uptime of phase walk (after 2.4 100%). On Titan for burn Phase and first 2 launches, so here aswell about 50%.

On TWH, DG, Op9 and TFB nearly full uptime aswell. This discussion was already made long time ago:

For example here: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=660876&page=2

3 big walls of text about the usage of Phase Walk on 11 from 13 current operation bosses.

Phase walk is a matter of skill, if you and your healers are good you will have a full benefit of it.

We have the highest mean migation (look at dipstiks/kbns numbers we have even more migation then juggs without our self heal). In our nim progression group it's the juggs who are struggeling on some bosses, cause they get way more average damage then the sins.

Especially on dg nim, which i doubt any group could have been able to kill it with 2 jugg tanks pre pre nerf. As far as i know every group needed atleast 1 pt or 1 assassin to do it.

No...they are OP.

I have no idea why you think they are OP. They preform like a tank should. It may seem OP if your class doesn't quite hit the standard, but I assure you that Juggs/Guardians are not OP.

No...they are OP. Powertechs / Vanguards have no reason to exist atm except for those who can't handle more than one button..

You do realize it takes more skill to play a PT/VG now then it takes to play a SW/JG? For the juggy you can effectively tank without worrying about anything but face rolling and hitting DcD's when needed. You can tank absolutely fine with out a set rotation on a juggy just hit any ability that's not on CD. The PT you actually need to watch buff's/build stacks for heat blast and keep track of your Flame Engine proc. No, it's not a lot to keep track of but its more then what a juggy needs to do.

You do realize it takes more skill to play a PT/VG now then it takes to play a SW/JG? For the juggy you can effectively tank without worrying about anything but face rolling and hitting DcD's when needed. You can tank absolutely fine with out a set rotation on a juggy just hit any ability that's not on CD. The PT you actually need to watch buff's/build stacks for heat blast and keep track of your Flame Engine proc. No, it's not a lot to keep track of but its more then what a juggy needs to do.

Not...really. But this is a different debate (flame burst spam!) Jugs have two abilities they need to keep on CD. Pts have resource management. Jugs can face roll CDs...PTs have two.

snip.

Some of your ideas are a bit...wacky. Not sure why you'd want a tank to pull thrasher into your healers...since you don't tank switch that. At least in HM, haven't done NM mode yet. Same with Titan 6 (HM). Some of your ideas are Nice, but still...that 5% does not and will not magically save us from having most of our hp knocked out from RNG.

Some of your ideas are a bit...wacky. Not sure why you'd want a tank to pull thrasher into your healers...since you don't tank switch that.

Most people tank swap on Trasher as the other tank goes up.

That being said I happened to tank 16-man HM Thrasher on Monday in crazy inter-guild group with at least one healer being really a sage DPS and I survived quite surprisingly even though we did it in tactics where guardian jumped up and I just stayed on boss at the gate. There were a few scary moments but I believe with healers knowing each other etc. it wouldn't be that hard. The only thing I did was respec for endurance talent for something like 38,5k health. So 16-man HM is not that much of a problem (although it still is much easier for a guardian or vanguard and much less dependent on carefully optimising gear).Based on my limited experience with 8-man NiM I can't see shadow tank in 16-man NiM for now. Maybe in full Kell Dragon gear from 8-man it would be possible though?

Most people tank swap on Trasher as the other tank goes up.

 

That being said I happened to tank 16-man HM Thrasher on Monday in crazy inter-guild group with at least one healer being really a sage DPS and I survived quite surprisingly even though we did it in tactics where guardian jumped up and I just stayed on boss at the gate. There were a few scary moments but I believe with healers knowing each other etc. it wouldn't be that hard. The only thing I did was respec for endurance talent for something like 38,5k health. So 16-man HM is not that much of a problem (although it still is much easier for a guardian or vanguard and much less dependent on carefully optimising gear).Based on my limited experience with 8-man NiM I can't see shadow tank in 16-man NiM for now. Maybe in full Kell Dragon gear from 8-man it would be possible though?

I did maintank thrasher 16 man hm for months (as an assassin) without any problems.

When you have a lot of random new people in your Group, it's way easier for them to just maintain tanking thrasher at a certain point while a juggernaut/vanguard jumps up with 2 dps or another assassin tanks aoe taunts the adds from downstairs.

First awall, these are not ideas... I do use phase walk excactly the way i described it. Kiting thrasher and tankswitch around is the main method for a good coordinated group in NiM Content (i think dilih and suckafish did it that way, just watch their vids).

Obviously its also easy to let the other tank tank thrasher at first for 5 seconds while you place your healing circle in the middle and take then thrasher for the whole time (and probably do a short switch when phase walk is back of cooldown).

What do you mean about HM Titan? Just place a healing circle in a position where the healers can heal the whole raid at 2 different launch positions. Thats quite easy and you get a lot of uptime (on the first two positions of Titan, partially on the third position and full uptime on forth position and burn Phase if you do it the optimal way).