but you wouldn't give up dps for these things?

And you completely missed what I said.

All melee dps should be roughly around each other... meaning PT's, Ops, Juggs, and Sin's should all do within 5% of the dps of each other.

Marauder dps should not be lowered because they bring more utility. As I said, Utlity and DPS are two independent things.

And you completely missed what I said.

 

All melee dps should be roughly around each other... meaning PT's, Ops, Juggs, and Sin's should all do within 5% of the dps of each other.

 

Marauder dps should not be lowered because they bring more utility. As I said, Utlity and DPS are two independent things.

But these things are all part of class balance. It's easy to say that utility should only be balanced with utility if you're a marauder -- you have ALL of the utility. It's an unfair advantage to classes that only do the same damage as you and have no utility. Yes, I understand that from a pvp perspective stealth and vanish trump just about everything for utility, but that doesn't mean anything in PVE. I also cannot stress that enough. Stealth classes could lose stealth in PVE and it means...an extra trash pull? I would gladly give up stealth in PVE on my stealth classes if they got marauder utilities.

But these things are all part of class balance. It's easy to say that utility should only be balanced with utility if you're a marauder -- you have ALL of the utility. It's an unfair advantage to classes that only do the same damage as you and have no utility. Yes, I understand that from a pvp perspective stealth and vanish trump just about everything for utility, but that doesn't mean anything in PVE. I also cannot stress that enough. Stealth classes could lose stealth in PVE and it means...an extra trash pull? I would gladly give up stealth in PVE on my stealth classes if they got marauder utilities.

No... utility is utility. That's the bottom line. I cannot stress it enough that you do not balance dps around utility. Point blank. Even if a class brings a ton of utlity you would simply take the higher dps numbers over someone with more utility.

If you want to complain about utitlity then I'll call in the Hybrid Tax and say that Hybrid classes like sins, juggs, opps, and pts have to have reduced dps because their Hybrid classes.

The Hybrid Tax and the Utility Tax are equally valid. They're either both not valid or they both are. I have yet to be in a raid in ToR where they would sit someone based on utility over dps numbers.

And you're also wrong. There have been uses for a dps to be able to CC, to taunt, to respec to a different role. Granted, it's not as many as Bloodthirst. But Bloodthirst isn't necessary to a raid in this game. It's 15% more damage for 15 seconds.

Also, people tend to forget that Bloodthirst only affects four people (for now), that is, your own raid frame.

Due to this, the maximum number of Marauders there should be in a raid that seeks to get the most out of their dps, is two. One for each raid frame. This way you don't get the annoying Fury-stack problem.

As it is currently, there is absolutely no reason to use any composition of classes besides 4 marauders for HM operations. Not only is their dps excellent, but with 4 mara's the group can roll "constant" bloodlust to maintain max group dps. The best solution is to put bloodlust on a global cool down for the group analogous to battle rez.

One of the dumbest posts I've seen on these forums in a while.... and believe me there are a LOT.

I'm curious.... how long do you think Bloodthirst lasts when it's activated?

A class is part of a role in an operation. Purposefully diminishing a class because of another role it has the potential to fill at a separate point in time is dumb. Then all dps classes would become sniper and marauder. Also, are there that many raid groups out there switching roles throughout the run?

During a boss fight, things like cc and taunt for dps don't matter. I still don't think vanish/rez should exist in a boss fight. Or an assassin stealthing and changing gear. So stealth shouldn't matter. What you do with and how you handle trash really makes no difference. That's why it's called trash. It's the crap you're forced to wade through for the parts of the operation that matter.

I'm not arguing that bloodthirst is necessary. I'm arguing against classes that have far more group utility (and personal as well) than other classes.

This is a necessary step. Once enough people complain about imbalance, the change occurs. I have to post this. In my raid group, everyone does the same damage. Or about the same damage. Ranged classes (which include warriors because of leap) usually have an edge because the majority of movement for them is fire over chasing a boss. I had to struggle with which class to use as my main for 2.0 because I knew the damage/utility argument was going to be a factor. Bioware let me down and doesn't seem to care about damage/utility balance at all.

Ranged classes (which include warriors because of leap).

uhhh what?

Warriors are not a ranged class.

It's not the point that you can't clear content without maras. The point is groups are rewarded for bringing 4 of the same exact class and there is nothing to discourage them.

Rewarded how? Please tell me how groups are being rewarded for bringing 4 Marauders?

Now tell me how those that do these ops WITHOUT Marauders are cheated?

It's not the point that you can't clear content without maras. The point is groups are rewarded for bringing 4 of the same exact class and there is nothing to discourage them.

 

And some of the above posts are very wrong, bloodthirst is a 15% increase to dps and healing for 15 seconds with a 5 min cooldown. I also specified operations which has 8 people, presumably 2 tanks, 2 healers, 4 dps.

Thread still makes no sense to me.. how can they use it "constant" if it's a 5 min cooldown and only lasts 15 seconds. Excuse me if I'm wrong, but if each Marauder uses their bloodthirst after the previous runs out, doesn't that still give a 4 minute window when no one is buffed by it?

A class is part of a role in an operation. Purposefully diminishing a class because of another role it has the potential to fill at a separate point in time is dumb. Then all dps classes would become sniper and marauder. Also, are there that many raid groups out there switching roles throughout the run?

 

During a boss fight, things like cc and taunt for dps don't matter. I still don't think vanish/rez should exist in a boss fight. Or an assassin stealthing and changing gear. So stealth shouldn't matter. What you do with and how you handle trash really makes no difference. That's why it's called trash. It's the crap you're forced to wade through for the parts of the operation that matter.

 

I'm not arguing that bloodthirst is necessary. I'm arguing against classes that have far more group utility (and personal as well) than other classes.

 

This is a necessary step. Once enough people complain about imbalance, the change occurs. I have to post this. In my raid group, everyone does the same damage. Or about the same damage. Ranged classes (which include warriors because of leap) usually have an edge because the majority of movement for them is fire over chasing a boss. I had to struggle with which class to use as my main for 2.0 because I knew the damage/utility argument was going to be a factor. Bioware let me down and doesn't seem to care about damage/utility balance at all.

As soon as they take away your ability to respec to tank role, then I'll be okay giving up utility. Simple as that. And utility is not a factor. There's a common statement: "Take the player, not the class". Our guild would not make someone reroll to Marauder if we had none in our group, nor would we take one who was subpar over a non-marauder who did good dps. So your utility argument is sort of moot.

Thread still makes no sense to me.. how can they use it "constant" if it's a 5 min cooldown and only lasts 15 seconds. Excuse me if I'm wrong, but if each Marauder uses their bloodthirst after the previous runs out, doesn't that still give a 4 minute window when no one is buffed by it?

The OP is making a hyperbole. Basically, if you 4 marauders as your dps, they would all share their BT with each other, giving them 20% dps increase that couldn't happen if you used 4 snipers, or 4 PT's, etc.

It's really a trivial argument in trying to make their own dps more viable, but most guilds in ToR go by the player. I have yet to see any need to stack dps classes in this game like you do in WoW... except for range having an advantage over melee.

It's really a trivial argument in trying to make their own dps more viable, but most guilds in ToR go by the player. I have yet to see any need to stack dps classes in this game like you do in WoW... except for range having an advantage over melee.

Current content is easy so composition balance doesn't matter?

If a player has both a powertech and a marauder, both filling the same role. How do you justify taking the powertech dps over the marauder?

Also the inability to build fury while BT is going does not counter BT's benefit for addition marauders. Almost a non issue for Carnage.

Current content is easy so composition balance doesn't matter?

 

If a player has both a powertech and a marauder, both filling the same role. How do you justify taking the powertech dps over the marauder?

Wrong. What are you saying: That PT's should get as much utility as Marauders or that PT's should do more DPS than a Marauder? That's called the Utility Tax. Which is a bad premise because it's easily countered by using the Hybrid Tax that a PT is. No point in taking a Marauder if the PT has just as much utility (or does more DPS) and I and I have the PT respec to tank in case of raid composition problems. You can't have a Marauder respec to another role.

Your argument is just as bad as when people are that Marauders and Snipers are the only "True" DPS classes in the game, hence that's why they should do more DPS. I have never argued in favor of that because I do not believe in the Hybrid Tax. But I'm definitely not going to be okay with a Utility Tax either.

And as most guilds go, if two people do the same DPS, you take the player, not the class.

The OP did not specify in his post, however several posters that know Ifrit have been using the word "melee" in their responses. Marauders and snipers are definitely the top two targets of my conversations about overpowered classes, however I know that Ifrit's raising the same question I have many times: Why would you bring any melee class to a fight other than marauders? In other words, if you had one player with all melee classes that were equally geared, why would you want him to bring his operative, assassin, powertech, or juggernaut?

 

Also, nothing in this game really requires any actual class composition, so bringing the classes that are not in damage and utility balance (overpowered) instead of the other classes makes the content even more trivial. I think Ifrit's underlying argument is that the classes are not balanced so that every class has damage equivalent to their personal raid utility.

He did specify, his argument is that they do great dps and they have a group wide damage increase. The two together are his justification. The other melee classes can do about the same damage (depending on player skill and gearing). The only difference is that they bring different utilities to the raid that are not flat damage increases.

Let me be more clear, if you think rolling 4 Marauders is the way to go for the max dps, you have no idea how classes do damage. The constant Bloodlusts will nerf the damage the Marauders do. The Bloodlusts can and will be clipped due to mechanics. If you want to make a point for having one per raid, sure....that is valid and understandable. However, putting a raid wide CD on the use of Bloodlust will not effect that raid.....

This thread is akin to something I've been posting about for months. Marauder is easily the dominant melee class. I cannot think of a single fight where you cannot take 4 marauders who have an ungodly amount of cooldowns, most noticeably being able to roll Bloodthirst with 20% uptime.

 

What advantage can you think of to bringing any of the other melee dps classes?

 

Powertechs have... Pull, Taunt, and Stealth Scan -- lose

Operatives have Vanish, Cleanse (Tech/Physical), Infiltrate, Exfiltrate -- lose

Assassins can Vanish, Taunt, Phasewalk, Overcharge Saber, Force Speed -- lose

Juggernauts have Taunt, Push, Intercede -- lose

Where's Sniper on your list? Of course Marauder and Snipers would be waaaay better DPS-wise... It's the ONLY thing they can do. They can't tank and they can't heal. All of your examples have 2 specs. BW made Mara/Sent and Sniper/Slinger better DPS-wise BECAUSE they cannot do any other role EXCEPT for DPS. Sorry, but this will not change. QQ elsewhere.

Okay, Marauder 1 I want you to CC Flame, Marauder 2 CC Gun, Marauder 3 CC Shield, Marauder 4 CC Lightning...

 

Oh wait...

Maybe they are all droids?

As it is currently, there is absolutely no reason to use any composition of classes besides 4 marauders for HM operations. Not only is their dps excellent, but with 4 mara's the group can roll "constant" bloodlust to maintain max group dps. The best solution is to put bloodlust on a global cool down for the group analogous to battle rez.

15% increase for 20% of the time = 3% total damage increase, now tell me, how is 3% so good that there is no reason to take anything else?

But these things are all part of class balance. It's easy to say that utility should only be balanced with utility if you're a marauder -- you have ALL of the utility. It's an unfair advantage to classes that only do the same damage as you and have no utility. Yes, I understand that from a pvp perspective stealth and vanish trump just about everything for utility, but that doesn't mean anything in PVE. I also cannot stress that enough. Stealth classes could lose stealth in PVE and it means...an extra trash pull? I would gladly give up stealth in PVE on my stealth classes if they got marauder utilities.

Op/Scoundrel stealth CC = utility... You're gonna give up a utility that's useful in an ENTIRELY different situation for a utility another class has for an ENTIRELY different situation in PVE? That's just dumb. Every class has their role to perform PVE-wise. This is only a discussion in PVP and even then it's moot. A DPS Assassin/Shadow or DPS Jugg/Guardian can AoE taunt as well in PVP racking up the Protection points which is WAAAAY better than closing a mere 5% dps gap in PVP. So this argument is dumb in both environments.

Op/Scoundrel stealth CC = utility... You're gonna give up a utility that's useful in an ENTIRELY different situation for a utility another class has for an ENTIRELY different situation in PVE? That's just dumb. Every class has their role to perform PVE-wise. This is only a discussion in PVP and even then it's moot. A DPS Assassin/Shadow or DPS Jugg/Guardian can AoE taunt as well in PVP racking up the Protection points which is WAAAAY better than closing a mere 5% dps gap in PVP. So this argument is dumb in both environments.

If a class's pvp utility is vastly superior than its pve utility, that's imbalanced.

If one class's utility is vastly superior to another's utility, that's imbalanced.

BioWare doesn't seem to care about balancing utility. Instead, whining about imbalanced dps has slowly gotten the dps closer. I don't care about the damage of classes because I trust every member of my raid team. What I do care about is providing proper utility balance across classes. Personally, I'd rather an environment where every class did similar dps with caveats (burst vs sustained, area vs single target), but the general population would just complain because pvp warzone numbers would be so much higher for the area classes opposed to bursty single target. I'd also love for each class to have a raid wide utility ability similar to how marauders have Bloodthirst and Predation and Snipers have their Shield. It feels like everyone is so against proper damage and utility balancing because they don't want to get nerfed.

15% increase for 20% of the time = 3% total damage increase, now tell me, how is 3% so good that there is no reason to take anything else?

You cannot seriously argue that a controlled, timed 15% damage increase can simply be averaged-out to a general increase when considering its relative value.

Nope, but the op's argument is that it is continuous and therefore not timed and i'm just adding to how ridiculous his argument is. Yes, an organized could add more than 3% if all of the marauders could continue a normal rotation, but they can't, as many people have already pointed out, because marauders can't build fury if affected by bloodthirst. They could use frenzy, but they couldn't do that all the time because frenzy has a 3 min cooldown (2.5 min if specced)

Nope, but the op's argument is that it is continuous and therefore not timed and i'm just adding to how ridiculous his argument is. Yes, an organized could add more than 3% if all of the marauders could continue a normal rotation, but they can't, as many people have already pointed out, because marauders can't build fury if affected by bloodthirst. They could use frenzy, but they couldn't do that all the time because frenzy has a 3 min cooldown (2.5 min if specced)

As for the rotation, that's comme-ci/comme-ca. You'd have to work out how much the Fury-blockage reduces damage output and weigh that against how much BT increases it, then further split the analysis by spec choice, to see what you're really getting.

As far as Frenzy: with BT on 5m CD and Frenzy on 2.5m CD, it should be plausible to have a Frenzy-chain ready for each BT, right?

But I'm still curious about the people who keep saying "BT only affects your actual group", which drops the plausible Op-wide uptime to 30s in an 8-man. Unless, I guess, you structured it as "Tank / Tank / Heal / Heal" in one group and "DPS / DPS / DPS / DPS" in the other group... I guess that's plausible enough.

I know I'm meandering a bit, I'm not very experienced with organized Ops, but I just find this topic interesting and want to explore it more.