It's page 468. At this point, you shouldn't need a dev reply to understand the answer.

Now back to playing the game instead of finding ways around it.

Whoever made this thread, is a complete idiot. Bioware has stated 100000000000000+ times that THERE WILL NEVER BE A WAY TO CHANGE AC.

care to back that up?

SWTOR isn't the only game in town. People play games to have fun. The devs should give some sort of answer here. I know they are busy dealing with Cartel Coins and gambling packs but this is a pretty big thread and it doesn't seem to be going away.

They HAVE said and they have said NO. AC = Class = Fixed.

but nice backhand jab at the CM which has done tremendous changes to this game.

I wonder why you continue to play and support this game if you feel it is nothing more than a greedy cash grab feeding the weak minded gambling addicted players.

They HAVE said and they have said NO. AC = Class = Fixed.

They've also said yes to ac swapping (more than once). And to that dev that said "AC = Class" - that wasn't and isn't a reason to disallow ac swapping, just a guy selling a game to people that like big numbers (16 classes sounds better than 4). it never ceases to amaze me how some people fly around with random dev quotes as if they are some sort of prophetic commandments. In game documentation and the help guides on this site don't equate acs with classes as the word is used in other games.

Whether or not AC is a class is irrelevant. Just the fact that they even CONSIDERED AC swapping proves that. They don't seem to care if it is or is not....if I were them I would be concerned about the negative impact it could have on the game if implemented.

But no....AC being a class or not likely has nothing to do with whether or not this will happen. The current devs just dont seem to hold the same narrow stubborn self destructive views that the original gaggle of developers did.

Views like "Visual progression is an important part of the SWTOR experience by design", among others. Silly silly views that almost rocketed this game into oblivion IMO.

You can believe AC is a class. You can believe it is not. Those that believe it is probably some form of a class, maybe pseudo-class of sorts probably outnumber those that do not, and those folks would likely not like to see what should be a meaningful choice become trivialized.

But that doesn't mean because I see it as a "sort of" class it is a class. Nor does that mean that definition is important to the current devs...it is more likely it is not.

If this does not happen it will likely not be because it was "viewed as a class"....but more likely that "many players view it as a class of sorts" and they would probably react negatively to the change.

They've also said yes to ac swapping (more than once). And to that dev that said "AC = Class" - that wasn't and isn't a reason to disallow ac swapping, just a guy selling a game to people that like big numbers (16 classes sounds better than 4). it never ceases to amaze me how some people fly around with random dev quotes as if they are some sort of prophetic commandments. In game documentation and the help guides on this site don't equate acs with classes as the word is used in other games.

Check your guild roster and give me an HONEST answer. What does your guild roster list your characters' CLASSES as being and what are their respective levels?

They've also said yes to ac swapping (more than once). And to that dev that said "AC = Class" - that wasn't and isn't a reason to disallow ac swapping, just a guy selling a game to people that like big numbers (16 classes sounds better than 4). it never ceases to amaze me how some people fly around with random dev quotes as if they are some sort of prophetic commandments. In game documentation and the help guides on this site don't equate acs with classes as the word is used in other games.

There has only ever been one attributable quote remotely in the affirmative to the possibility of AC respec.

http://dulfy.net/2012/11/16/swtor-f2p-future-content-interview-with-damion-schubert/

All others were on the Beta forum and they quickly decided against it.

Whether or not AC is a class is irrelevant. Just the fact that they even CONSIDERED AC swapping proves that. They don't seem to care if it is or is not....if I were them I would be concerned about the negative impact it could have on the game if implemented.

Semantics are always fun, and many longer running arguments in the world are based on one persons interpretation word over another persons. I think the Devs are well aware of how the abilities are put together and what their decisions were for restricting access to the thought of AC swapping from the start.

While I am not for Class swapping (as SWTOR defines class, as I see the story and associated companions being core to that original choice) I don't have a hang up with an Advanced Class swap as it would have the potential to enrich the end game experience for me (although the only way I'd use it if it was a one time unlock, maybe gated by legacy or unlocking both ACs to max, so it was no more costly than the current cost of swapping Specialisation). I see the potential for the AC swap feature as a positive step to the long term appeal of the game for many players.

But no....AC being a class or not likely has nothing to do with whether or not this will happen. The current devs just dont seem to hold the same narrow stubborn self destructive views that the original gaggle of developers did.

 

Views like "Visual progression is an important part of the SWTOR experience by design", among others. Silly silly views that almost rocketed this game into oblivion IMO.

I can't help but agree with you on this point. While I would give Bioware more credit than some for being original and taking risks with SWTOR, I feel that the decision to focus so much on story as the lynch pin of the game experience backed them into a very linear experience that has a very definite sense of completion (death for an MMO that really should feel open-ended), the class story experience also eclipsed the experience of all the content that's followed and in many ways trivialised it making it a hard task to draw a player back into the game once that last class quest is done.

You can believe AC is a class. You can believe it is not. Those that believe it is probably some form of a class, maybe pseudo-class of sorts probably outnumber those that do not, and those folks would likely not like to see what should be a meaningful choice become trivialized.

The Role you play is a meaningful choice as it determines your function in the game. Class is a meaningful choice as it determines the story you will play through. Advanced Class choice is at best a choice the developers put in to restrict access to a character having access to core heal/tank abilities at the same time. In all meaningful ways it is a secondary stage of specialisation and trivialises that choice far less than when a player choses to switch specialisation from Tank to DPS.

But that doesn't mean because I see it as a "sort of" class it is a class. Nor does that mean that definition is important to the current devs...it is more likely it is not.

 

If this does not happen it will likely not be because it was "viewed as a class"....but more likely that "many players view it as a class of sorts" and they would probably react negatively to the change.

If it doesn't happen I would imagine it would be because of the necessary development time to implement it well, the actual need for it (the metrics would be thje core for this argument), or an additional game component (more AC choices) that would drive its uptake. I doubt anyone has stopped playing as a direct result of not being able to switch AC, just as I don't see it being a big enough draw to tempt anyone back. This places it's priority for inclusion way down the list of things to get done.

There has only ever been one attributable quote remotely in the affirmative to the possibility of AC respec.

http://dulfy.net/2012/11/16/swtor-f2p-future-content-interview-with-damion-schubert/

 

All others were on the Beta forum and they quickly decided against it.

Beta's long over. I'm sure many choices argued for in Beta have changed, as such it can't be seen as the last word of what should and should not be considered for the future path of the game.

As to the merits of the quote in question, it was made by the current Lead Designer, it was the last thing said by a dev on the specific question of AC swap.

Check your guild roster and give me an HONEST answer. What does your guild roster list your characters' CLASSES as being and what are their respective levels?

As I've already told you, I can name 4 players off the top of my head who leveled up to 55 without picking an AC.

Instead, lets look at what Bioware considers "classes":

http://www.swtor.com/holonet/classes

Beta's long over. I'm sure many choices argued for in Beta have changed, as such it can't be seen as the last word of what should and should not be considered for the future path of the game.

 

As to the merits of the quote in question, it was made by the current Lead Designer, it was the last thing said by a dev on the specific question of AC swap.

18 months ago.

18 months ago.

"Cathar" were talked about for almost a year too...your point? Things don't happen over night in an MMO.

There has only ever been one attributable quote remotely in the affirmative to the possibility of AC respec.

http://dulfy.net/2012/11/16/swtor-f2p-future-content-interview-with-damion-schubert/

 

All others were on the Beta forum and they quickly decided against it.

oh, c'mon... There's a youtube video from a swtor hype session in July just before the game was released where producers/devs said "AC respecs will be in the game @release". There wasn't any hesitation or uncertainty or ambiguity in their answer at that time. They obviously changed their minds or decided to unprioritze development of that feature over the next 4 months but the video establishes that there is no philosophical consensus on the subject or mandate about "acs being full classes and therefore unswitchable" - not amongst the devs. They fully intended to allow AC swapping at the same time or right after they were developing ACs. The video is linked in this thread in a couple places, I'll dig it up later if needed.

oh, c'mon... There's a youtube video from a swtor hype session in July just before the game was released where producers/devs said "AC respecs will be in the game @release". There wasn't any hesitation or uncertainty or ambiguity in their answer at that time. They obviously changed their minds or decided to unprioritze development of that feature over the next 4 months but the video establishes that there is no philosophical consensus on the subject or mandate about "acs being full classes and therefore unswitchable" - not amongst the devs. They fully intended to allow AC swapping at the same time or right after they were developing ACs. The video is linked in this thread in a couple places, I'll dig it up later if needed.

Maybe he should have said the others were made during beta, BEFORE RELEASE.

The point is that the devs determined BEFORE release that class changing (AC swapping) would not be possible, and to date that remains the case. Since the release of this game, the devs have never said that class changes WOULD be implemented.

I also notice that you chose not to answer my question. I am not surprised.

As I've already told you, I can name 4 players off the top of my head who leveled up to 55 without picking an AC.

 

Instead, lets look at what Bioware considers "classes":

http://www.swtor.com/holonet/classes

You can think of a whole FOUR players who didn't choose an AC. WoW.

Now, how many members are in your guild?

How many members OVER LEVEL 10 have their class list as:

Bounty hunter

Sith warrior

Sith inquisitor

Imperial agent

Trooper

Jedi knight

Jedi consular

Smuggler

Now how many guild members OVER LEVEL 10 have their class list as:

Poweretech

Mercenary

Sith juggernaut

Sith marauder

Sith assassin

Sith sorcerer

Sniper

Operative

Vanguard

Commando

Jedi guardian

Jedi sentinel

Jedi shadow

Jedi sage

Gunslinger

Scoundrel

I doubt that you will actually answer this challenge, but feel free to surprise me if you have the stones.

I notice that you conveniently ignore the fact that the holopage has been changed from its original form. Each individual STORY class has been changed to make it more apparent that the AC's are not simply specs. They tell you what tactical roles each AC can fill, and even go so far as to give you a hint at the potential skills available to each spec of each AC.

Devs determined before release that.....

Visual progression was a required design aspect and would not change.

There would never be a market.

The appearance you choose at character creation is the appearance you will always have.

AC swapping would never happen.

Major expansions would have extensions to class story.

PVP would always be "come as you are", no assists or adjustments to encourage undergeared players.

Comms would never be shared, as this defeats the purpose of having individual planetary heroics.

Originally modded gear was the norm, but folks found it confusing, so moving forward gear will not be moddable.

Endgame combat would not revolve around a bunch of players beating on one giant mob.

This game would not be overly instanced.

Being a grey player would be just as viable as dark or light.

Worlds were going to be huge and open.

There was no foreseeable need to reduce the amount of servers.

There will never be traditional housing, your starship is your "house".

There were many many others. I would say dozens and dozens of "never will happen", "not designed that way" and "was not our intent" have been thrown out of the door. Very few if any remain.

I expect the current dev team is trying to distance themselves from the debacle that was public announcements and interviews before and shortly after release.

It is pretty silly, IMO, to stand firm on statements made from devs that were at best speculating at the time and probably LOST their jobs for that very design intent and dismiss the most recent comment from current devs in the same sweep.

The current devs have 1000 percent more reputability than the prior dev team IMO. They have actually DONE what they have said they were going to do, and have rarely misinformed or speculated incorrectly on anything (though they have not been perfect).

The original dev team was a hot mess.

Look folks....the argument about whether or not AC is a class is irrelevant IMO. What is more relevant is whether or not folks actually want something like this, and whether or not the folks that don't would be a majority.

That is the only important thing to consider here IMO.

Maybe he should have said the others were made during beta, BEFORE RELEASE.

 

The point is that the devs determined BEFORE release that class changing (AC swapping) would not be possible, and to date that remains the case. Since the release of this game, the devs have never said that class changes WOULD be implemented.

 

I also notice that you chose not to answer my question. I am not surprised.

your entire case against it is that the dev's have never said anything(wich they in fact have).. that's a pretty weak one to be honest. it's ok to be against it i dont really care if they implement it but if players want it i do not see a reason why they should'nt get it.

I notice that you conveniently ignore the fact that the holopage has been changed from its original form. Each individual STORY class has been changed to make it more apparent that the AC's are not simply specs. They tell you what tactical roles each AC can fill, and even go so far as to give you a hint at the potential skills available to each spec of each AC.

That still does not change the absolute and undeniable fact that, under classes, Bioware has 8 listed. It always has 8 listed...in every official statement, every spot on the website I can find, during character creation...8 classes.

For a company that wanted folks to know that the game had more than 8 classes they sure had a funny way of showing it IMO.

Does it really matter to you if AC is or is not a class?

your entire case against it is that the dev's have never said anything(wich they in fact have).. that's a pretty weak one to be honest. it's ok to be against it i dont really care if they implement it but if players want it i do not see a reason why they should'nt get it.

No. It is not my case that devs have NEVER said anything. I do maintain that since release, the devs have not said anything to indicate that class changes definitely will happen, though.

I have acknowledged many times the statement from well over a year ago. That statement does NOT say that class changing WILL happen, only that it will likely happen EVENTUALLY. As has been said many times before, there is NO time frame, and there has been NOTHING further from the devs since, despite many threads including this 460+ page thread. They have NOT been silent about many other things they are working on implementing, however, no matter how much some would like to claim that the devs never speak about things they are working implementing.

I have always maintained, though, that the last word from the devs is that AC's are fundamentally DIFFERENT classes and were treated as FULL CLASSES in and of themselves. While it may be true that the devs who made those statements is no longer with BW, those statements have not been contradicted since they were made.

That still does not change the absolute and undeniable fact that, under classes, Bioware has 8 listed. It always has 8 listed...in every official statement, every spot on the website I can find, during character creation...8 classes.

 

For a company that wanted folks to know that the game had more than 8 classes they sure had a funny way of showing it IMO.

 

Does it really matter to you if AC is or is not a class?

Yes, it does matter to me.

If there are only 8 classes, then why are there so many classes listed when you do a /who, or look at your guild roster? Why does a powertech's class show as POWERTECH and NOT bounty hunter when you target that character? Why is a character's class listed as SNIPER and NOT imperial agent when you are grouped with that character?

We have agreed in the past that the devs could have been much clearer about the AC's being classes and not simply sub-specs. That does not negate the fact that the last word from ANY dev is that they are fundamentally DIFFERENT classes and were treated as FULL CLASSES in and of themselves.

We have also agreed in our desires to see a more definitive statement issued by the devs regarding AC's as classes or sub-specs. Until such time that a dev elects to make that more definitive statement, all we have to go on is the last statements made by the devs.

Isn't it a waste of time to argue over what the developers said they would or would not do? Argue for or against AC changes all you want, and maybe you can influence BW. Ask at a Cantina event, maybe you will get an answer. But trying to mind-read the current plans of the developers based on old statements they made just does not seem likely to produce a useful conclusion.

I have to wonder what the devs themselves think of all this "they said X," "they said not X" back and forth.

Yes, it does matter to me.

Ok, fair enough.

If there are only 8 classes, then why are there so many classes listed when you do a /who, or look at your guild roster? Why does a powertech's class show as POWERTECH and NOT bounty hunter when you target that character? Why is a character's class listed as SNIPER and NOT imperial agent when you are grouped with that character?

I didn't say there were only 8 classes. I said that almost everywhere they list game information they only list 8 class, and usually ACs are buried, either after class selection or in a special area nested within another. Which as you can imagine irritates me because it makes a clouded issue even worse, when they could simply fix it by displaying ALL of the classes on the page, not just the core ones.

We have agreed in the past that the devs could have been much clearer about the AC's being classes and not simply sub-specs. That does not negate the fact that the last word from ANY dev is that they are fundamentally DIFFERENT classes and were treated as FULL CLASSES in and of themselves.

And I dont intend to dispute that...only to dispute whether or not it matters with respect to AC change. I don't think it does. In fact I think little if anything that the original dev staff stated matters at all.

We have also agreed in our desires to see a more definitive statement issued by the devs regarding AC's as classes or sub-specs. Until such time that a dev elects to make that more definitive statement, all we have to go on is the last statements made by the devs.

Yea, I really wish they would simply come out and say it. I wonder why they are not willing to say one way or another. I REALLY want to know how the current dev team views ACs.

And as you probably already know I REALLY do not want to see AC change implemented....I want the choice to mean something. That's just me, I realize it might be selfish but it is my opinion.

470 pages of the same arguments over and over. By now you would think people would get tired.

That's what coffee and short attention spans are for

As much as I disagree with the views many if not all of the 'Say NO to AC swap' camp have, I stand 100% behind their right to have a voice on the forums and discuss their point of view. And I would hope that they extend the courtesy to allow me to expound that actually allowing AC swap would be no more detrimental than the current respecialisation that's allowed.

However, what I can't understand, and to some degree find disheartening, is the sheer number of forumites that will not weigh in on the discussion but just want everyone to shut up.

A forum should be a place for open discussion, if you have an opinion say it, if you just don't like the topic that's being discussed pass it by and let it slide down the thread pages to obscurity. But, please don't come on and try to shut down those people that do have an interest in discussing the various merits both pro and con of a feature.