The concept of talent trees isn't a failure; what the problem in WoW was that talent trees got bloated by the increase in levels to the point where talent trees were ridiculously long and become hard to balance, especially with "Hybrid" specs. (Same issue here in SWTOR regarding the hybrid specs)

 

Right now the problem I see with talent trees in SWTOR is they have no significant choices. Nearly every talent tree lets you spend every point you have in that tree with only 3-7 points not spent for talents in that single tree. There are nearly no significant choices; which is exactly why Blizzard changes their talent design in trees to be more significant at the beginning of Cataclysm.

 

 

Correct, there are few meaningful choices a player can make. There are math choices (i.e. correct ones) and very narrow choices at odd points. Most of the math choices involve padding 3 points into the same obviously best talent. That's why it's a failure. There's either a right answer, or nonsense choices. It's not particularly fun for anyone, least of all people who don't really understand the math, and just look up a spec somewhere. That's not good gameplay in wow, swtor, or anything else.

Actually no. It's not their job to teach players how to play their advanced class. That's the fun of MMO's; those who don't understand how to play get "thinned" out of the herd. They'll never play Hard-Mode FPs or OPs. BioWare teaches you the basics; beyond that it's "your game".

 

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It is their job. If you need to go to elitistjerks or sithwarrior.com to figure out how to play your character they're doing it wrong. You even (if you're a sith or jedi especially) have an in game 'master' who trains you. They should, you know... train you. You should never need to leave the game world to know how to play properly. And right now, you do. I point this out specifically because it's something they could do better than the competition.

 

Suggesting that players should be 'thinned' out of the herd is a path to making vanguard: a saga of [lonely] heros. Everyone should at a minimum be able to successfully complete normal mode raid and all hard modes, and should be able to meaningfully participate in general pvp. If not they dont' play, they don't pay, and Bioware starts having to cut staff. There aren't 2 million excellent hard mode raiders just waiting around for a star wars game. There's a difference between telling someone what they should do (they already get that information, just structured poorly by the community) and them being able to execute. The difference between excellent players and not is that excellent players can execute. It's not that the information doesn't exist, but it should be coming from BioWare in a cohesive fashion, not a bunch of forum nerds who are math geeks arguing with each other over the relative value of a critical thrash or a maul proc when you're madness speced.

 

 

The UI does have some signals; the Agent laughs when he gets probe crits that give him a Tactical Advantage proc.

 

The Bounty Hunter laughs and has a red shield briefly circle him when they get a PPA proc. It only took me about 30 minutes of playing to realize that the laugh/red shield meant my PPA had proc'd. Do you really need BIG FLOATING TEXT from addons to tell you how to play your class like in WoW? I think those who learn how to read the game mechanics without Addons are more skilled then those who require such addons to do the same thing.

 

I think you are too used to the spoonfeeding WoW addons gave you and need to go back to the basics of understanding how to play a game with your own two hands and brain; rather then having macros and addons do all the clicking and thinking for you.

 

You assumed everyone playing the game can hear. Think about that for about 10 seconds. (also the laughing happens so often it's more annoying to you and your group members than it is a useful cue for anything, I find it mainly distracts my group in 4 mans, and is mostly useless when you have two operatives, I have bad hearing, and I can't tell the difference between when I get a TA and when the other agent gets a TA).

 

All of the information is in the UI, but when it's added to your buffs they're constantly re-ordered/positioned. Like I said, this is an HCI problem, and there are more correct ways to visualize the data you need than there are developers. You immediately started with the fundamentally flawed premise that audio cues are useful to everyone. If you actually think that, we can't have a useful discussion. Being able to read through a reordering buff window watching procs and being able to guess which crushing darkness on the target is mine and which is someone elses is sort of a skill sure. But it's not a good or meaningful skill. And it excludes people from the game who are mostly overwhelmed by the UI, and don't have the time or interest in dealing with this nonsense. The goal with any piece of software is to make it accessible. It should be easy to know what you are supposed to do. Right now it isn't.

 

WoW addons solve the problem I said, that people don't know how to play, and the addons tell them. That's why their whole system needs a rethink. Mods are popular because they make the game more accessible, that's good, but if you need mods to convey critical information (which you do in WoW, because they basically gave up on the UI) then you're failing completely at actually making the game for a player. Blizzard solution was to make a platform for other programmers to solve them, and that's been the established norm since EQ brought in a moddable LUA UI in what 2002, 2003?

I just want to note that not all agree on this subject, actually I /hate/ the idea. Yes people will always percieve a right way and a wrong way to build thier characters, min/maxers will always dream about the perfect build, but playing builds one doesn't c/p from the forums has always worked. I hated it when games first moved away from assigning your attribute points on leveling (the age of every class having one attribute really sucks imo). I have been unfond of every other removal of choice since then. I just hope that if any one read the above and was looking to implement it they accept that not everyone agrees with you.

 

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I'm not sure how A follows B. If you could assign 'attribute' points and put them all in presence rather than something useful in raids, that's not a good choice to give a player. If you could put them all in one place that was definitely the best place (primary dps stat on an a dps char for example) then that's not a useful choice either. If you give them choices of lockpicking vs pickpocketing well now you're making interesting gameplay.

 

With talents you can seriously gimp yourself if you spec completely wrong, and most people don't have the time to invest in figuring out the wierd cases of talent points like the one I specifically mentioned. Blizzard, mechanically is going in a better direction than specs, but it's not the only approach. Right now the vast majority of specs are going to be either bad, or copied. Neither of which is good. If you're going to give the player choice that choice should actually be sensible, not self healing from dots versus higher stealth level. Those are bizarre oddly construed choices that don't really add much to the game, and even if you think they're good, they can be pulled out on their own.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Also this^^

 

I understand that WoW was fun, people loved and still do love it. I am not trying to needlessly badmouth the game, but I really wish folks would stop pushing for every other mainstream MMO that has come out since to develop the same way WoW did. People have always figured out how to work their way through new content. Long before the days of WoW-style flashing giant text telling people what to do, people figured it out by paying attention. What is awesome is seeing the same folks demanding that the gameplay match WoW then complain when everything is "easy".

 

 

Um.... right. But Blizzard got to 12 million subscribers. No one else has exceeded 5. And most of the other big ones were in asia. Lineage 1 and 2 I think were the biggest though theoretically SWTOR could be up there fairly soon. But 2 million subs is a long way from 12. The UI think was really long before WoW and with enough players you can't build an accessible UI for everyone.

 

 

Also, Please point to anywhere I've ever said the game is too easy. The game is largely inaccessible, it's too easy for hardcore wow players because it's mechanically the same as WOTLK. But if you couldn't, or didn't play wow SWTOR is bewilderingly hard.

This is an unfair statement. I've played almost a dozen different MMOs and every single one has had to rebalance classes, especially if they had any sort of skill tree system. The reason being is the more options they give us, the more creative players are going to get. When you have (in this game) millions of people, or even for one advance class, tens if not hundreds of thousands of people playing it, they are going to find combination you wouldn't have expected.

 

The latest example prior to SWTOR was Rift, a very expansive skill tree systems with countless combinations from the obvious to the absurd, things that Devs looked at and asked why would you have ever considered that combo, and yet you play it in a way that works.

 

Players are smarter than Devs, especially when it comes to milking a system, they are far more motivated and focused at getting their outcome.

It's a shame that some people settle for mediocrity and flawed mechanics.

Please don't quote Rift anymore in any discussion on class balance and talent spec design.

Judging by Bioware's previous titles, I fully expected them to deliver a more solid product in SWTOR. That is a fair conclusion based on historical performance.

I wouldn't call it either. I'd call it 100% par for the course with the MMORPG player crowd and proof of Lincoln's famous "you can please some of the people all the time and yuo can please all the people some of the time, but you can't lpeaase all the people all the time." The corollary to all of that, of course, is that some people can never be pleased. EVER. And THEY will be the most vocal of all because they view the world as against them and live in a constant victimhood echo chamber bubble where every single little slight theyfeel to their wants and desires is another confirmation that everyone and everything is out to screw them.

Win. Some of the posts in this thread are ridiculous. I especially like the people predicting the sub numbers....uninformed opinions abound, everyones a damn expert. Is everyone here young? Videogames in general are all about delays....show me a game that isn't delayed, I'll show you a pile of crap 9/10 times. Besides, only marquee titles ever get enough attention that you even know they're delayed. BW is being fairly candid and straightforward. They're making a lot of good changes. I'm cool with speculation about the patch, but class balance is something that has been off the radar, so there is hardly anything to go on. Being that that is the case, how the **** are people already qqing? LOL...

Still, the rampant, ADD, MTV entitlement group has a loud voice. Christ....they need a ****** flame bw forum so I can actually get info on here.

Judging by Bioware's previous titles, I fully expected them to deliver a more solid product in SWTOR. That is a fair conclusion based on historical performance.

No it isn't because this is BioWare's first MMO. Your posts suggest you're new to the genre (hint: no such thing as perfect balance, ever).

It's a shame that some people settle for mediocrity and flawed mechanics.

 

Please don't quote Rift anymore in any discussion on class balance and talent spec design.

 

Judging by Bioware's previous titles, I fully expected them to deliver a more solid product in SWTOR. That is a fair conclusion based on historical performance.

Well Rift is an example of how a LOT of options makes balance EXTREMELY difficult, that was why they went through a LOT of rebalance, tweaking etc. The other end of the spectrum would be a game like FFXI, where there was no speccing beyond class combos Job, Sub Job. They still had to rebalance, why, because people were VERY good at creating combinations that were more effective than others. Some classes couldn't compete on equal footing. It was less severe because the combinations were less, but they were there.

DAoC, DDO, Vanguard, WoW, Aion, EQ, all of these had to do some sort of class re-balance, whether it was minor or expansive, depending on how much the Devs failed to predict the outcomes of what can rapidly add up to countless combinations. It's just the nature of an MMO. Add gear, use items, stats and you keep increasing the difficulty of being prepared for every contingency.

On the personal attack, I'm not settling for anything, I do however understand that you aren't going to ship a perfect product, there is no such thing. All I can ask is that Devs continue to work and improve their product at a speed that is not slower than my patience. As long as *I* am still having fun, I will keep playing.

I love so many of your comments Shroudveil. *Tight hug !*

 

 

 

I sure don't remember getting a free respec but Im a Medic. Also, I have read many of your posts and you are one of the few players that actually -get it- about Op Medics. *Tight hug !*

 

[Off topic]

Your post the other day that Medics and Sawbones only having 50-100 energy was spot on. I would go further and say, that Op Medics and Sawbones only have 51-100 energy.

 

I have already listed, twice, what I would change to help Medics/Sawbones. I'm just waiting for the patch notes to see if I cancel my account or continue to play. The healing balancing needs to be substantial.

I got a hug! Woot!

No it isn't because this is BioWare's first MMO. Your posts suggest you're new to the genre (hint: no such thing as perfect balance, ever).

Wrong on both accounts.

1. I've been playing computer games since before Microsoft existed.

2. Bioware's SWTOR staff consists of many MMO vets.

I expected BW to control those MMO vets and not make the same mistakes they made in past games, and to go further and produce a higher quality game than what previously existed.

SWTOR does not do one thing that some other game doesn't do better other than voice acting and an overarcing single player plot.

It is quite clear to me that my level of expectation for a quality software product is not met with SWTOR. This game might be just fine in about a year or so, but it won't really matter by then. I -hope- they get it right in 1.2 but judging by past performance since December, 2011, I highly doubt it.

No it isn't because this is BioWare's first MMO. Your posts suggest you're new to the genre (hint: no such thing as perfect balance, ever).

It may be Bioware's first MMO, but it's not their first game, nor first RPG. It's also not some of the developers first MMO, as Bioware has taken devs that worked on other MMOs (Warhammer).

In my case, I'm mostly concerned because Bioware had several months of beta-testing before launch. I would expect that many balance issues would have been ironed out during those months. I said before I'll give Bioware a chance at another balance pass. I think it's clear that they weren't quite ready to launch in December, but had to anyway.

Well Rift is an example of how a LOT of options makes balance EXTREMELY difficult, that was why they went through a LOT of rebalance, tweaking etc. The other end of the spectrum would be a game like FFXI, where there was no speccing beyond class combos Job, Sub Job. They still had to rebalance, why, because people were VERY good at creating combinations that were more effective than others. Some classes couldn't compete on equal footing. It was less severe because the combinations were less, but they were there.

 

DAoC, DDO, Vanguard, WoW, Aion, EQ, all of these had to do some sort of class re-balance, whether it was minor or expansive, depending on how much the Devs failed to predict the outcomes of what can rapidly add up to countless combinations. It's just the nature of an MMO. Add gear, use items, stats and you keep increasing the difficulty of being prepared for every contingency.

 

On the personal attack, I'm not settling for anything, I do however understand that you aren't going to ship a perfect product, there is no such thing. All I can ask is that Devs continue to work and improve their product at a speed that is not slower than my patience. As long as *I* am still having fun, I will keep playing.

Yes, I get your point about Rift. My counterpoint is that SWTOR -should- have evolved the concept rather than rehashed it.

No, it wasn't a personal attack. Rather a statement that some people settle for less than other people.

Believe me when I say that I have wanted SWTOR to succeed since the very beginning. However, I cannot simply ignore so many glaring oversights, bad designs, and poorly implemented systems. And back on topic, I have a big question whether BW has the ability to deliver a truly balanced gameplay experience.

For example, I am in a huge guild (500+) where most characters are 50. None of the Sentinels will play Huttball. Balanced? I think not.

It may be Bioware's first MMO, but it's not their first game, nor first RPG. It's also not some of the developers first MMO, as Bioware has taken devs that worked on other MMOs (Warhammer).

 

In my case, I'm mostly concerned because Bioware had several months of beta-testing before launch. I would expect that many balance issues would have been ironed out during those months. I said before I'll give Bioware a chance at another balance pass. I think it's clear that they weren't quite ready to launch in December, but had to anyway.

The problems they have in this game are unique to MMOs, that is my point. They're also not problems that even experienced MMO makers fix (game balance - what MMO is perfectly balanced? none).

They actually have a pretty good balance in this game, honestly. I don't expect 1.2 to bring major nerfs or buffs, because neither is needed.

WOW had a few skill reset as well. This isn't something to worry about. It's a new game, and it will have growing pains.

Heck, I had my mage's skill tree radically changed each expansion from TBC -> Wrath -> Cataclysm. I expect skill resets, especially considering what was IMO the premature birth of SWTOR. In fact, I find them to be good CS.

The problems they have in this game are unique to MMOs, that is my point. They're also not problems that even experienced MMO makers fix (game balance - what MMO is perfectly balanced? none).

 

They actually have a pretty good balance in this game, honestly. I don't expect 1.2 to bring major nerfs or buffs, because neither is needed.

I actually agree that class vs. class balance is not terrible in SWTOR. I am surprised that they are doing a full reset of talents.

The biggest game imbalancing problem that I see is gear. And now I'm talking purely pvp. They've made improvements to make Champion gear a lot easier to obtain so that players are more closely and quickly matched.

BW does need to figure out how they want resolve to work, and if it is working as they expect then they need to document it. Additionally, the state of CC in this game is way out of control.

BW does need to figure out how they want resolve to work, and if it is working as they expect then they need to document it. Additionally, the state of CC in this game is way out of control.

I tend to agree with this. Resolve "works" but people don't really understand it and it doesn't work well. And the snare/root issue is an issue IMO.

I actually agree that class vs. class balance is not terrible in SWTOR. I am surprised that they are doing a full reset of talents.

I think the refund of all talent points is an overly cautious move (all conjecture since we have no idea what the changes in 1.2 are yet nor how extensive they are.) My guess is they want no one to remotely say "Hey you change this, why didn't I get a reset?", even if the change was just a minor value bump.

The problems they have in this game are unique to MMOs, that is my point. They're also not problems that even experienced MMO makers fix (game balance - what MMO is perfectly balanced? none).

 

They actually have a pretty good balance in this game, honestly. I don't expect 1.2 to bring major nerfs or buffs, because neither is needed.

That's your opinion. It's also debatable what defines a "major nerf or buff". I personally considered the nerf to Flechette Round/K.O./Shoot First all rolled into one update to be a major nerf.

I really don't like large nerfs or buffs either. They just make it harder for things to actually get into a good balance.

One thing that I was really hoping would come out of the Guild Summit was more information on what class balances would be taking place in 1.2. There's been some hints here and there that changes are coming. IGN even reported that Jedi Knights will be receiving some new skills, while Bounty Hunters will be receiving a nerf. In fact, entire skill trees are changing so greatly they're actually refunding our skill points for free.

 

However we have yet to see any details about this. With 1.2 being pushed out to early April, it's becoming more difficult for me to remain patient. In particular with the reduction to damage to Scoundrel Scrapper damage, and the relative silence of Bioware to concerns about the classes effectiveness in Operations and PVP. I'm not eager to have to wait another month to find out how classes will be changing to become more balanced, and I'm sure many others are becoming impatient as well.

 

All of the other 1.2 changes and additions sound great so far, but they won't mean much to me if certain classes are still inherently better than others. Let's hear some information about what 1.2 will be doing to classes in particular, and don't skimp on the details.

The reason this game failed at launch was what you wish to propogate, a quick realease. Let them work it out, get your gear while you wait. It isnt that bad, WoW was the same when it first came out, so are most games. Be patient, you investment will pay off.

The reason this game failed at launch was what you wish to propogate, a quick realease. Let them work it out, get your gear while you wait. It isnt that bad, WoW was the same when it first came out, so are most games. Be patient, you investment will pay off.

I'm self admitted an impatient person. I'm actually not asking for a quick release. I can wait till April for 1.2. I just want some more info, some details on their plans for class balance. GeorgZeoller makes it sound like the balance pass is already pretty much done, they just want to let us see it all at once instead of piece-meal. If that's the case, then get us some preliminary patch notes. Let the community see that the devs are indeed listening.

Will this affect my Sorc. at all?

Guaranteed. I'm expecting some kind of nerf to hybridization (Like a specification of what spells can be made instant by Wrath), the Conveyance fix and possibly some other healing-related nerfs, and for a change to either Shock's or Project's animation timing to make them the same.

Guaranteed. I'm expecting some kind of nerf to hybridization (Like a specification of what spells can be made instant by Wrath), the Conveyance fix and possibly some other healing-related nerfs, and for a change to either Shock's or Project's animation timing to make them the same.

Will it cost anything extra?

Word has been leaked from the Guild Summit that the expected balance changes are much, much more extensive that what they've related to IGN.

Essentially, every class is going to have their talents trees re-designed and hence why everybody will have all of their talent points refunded for free upon the introduction of 1.2

Expect broad sweeping changes regarding all classes.

Will it cost anything extra?

Fact is, we don't know yet. All we have is speculation.

Word has been leaked from the Guild Summit that the expected balance changes are much, much more extensive that what they've related to IGN.

 

Essentially, every class is going to have their talents trees re-designed and hence why everybody will have all of their talent points refunded for free upon the introduction of 1.2

 

Expect broad sweeping changes regarding all classes.

I did expect to hear/see more leaks from the guild summit. Didn't all the players there get to play 1.2? Of course they probably all had to sign an NDA, and I think they were closely watched to not take pictures.

Everyone should at a minimum be able to successfully complete normal mode raid and all hard modes, and should be able to meaningfully participate in general pvp.

This one statement irked me. No, not everyone needs to know how to raid or pvp. There is a significant section of gamers that do neither of these and never want to. I have 7 years exp in graphical mmos, and a few years of text-based. Never once has the company held my hand to teach me to play, I learned by doing. I help my guildies understand what they need to do when we team, and oh my god, we might make mistakes, but the learning is fun. My guildmates will rarely group out of our guild, but one of em, and me, do sometimes join others. I have raided in LOTRO and COH (if ya can call those raids) and i just did what was asked of me. Most raid leaders ive worked with would explain the strats, and the why. Seems silly to think out of the box everyone will know exactly what to do, whats the point in new games then. If they are all the same so everyone knows every strat and tactic, then why not stay in one, and never play anything else.