In the movie era all forms except Niman has someone who is regarded as THE master of the form and the list is something like this if I have my facts right.

Shii-Cho: Kit Fisto easy.

Makashi: Dooku obviosly but according to Obi-Wan Shaak Ti is a close second.

Soresu: Obi-Wan has the best feats of pure mastery of the form in the entire media even if some people could move faster and as such defend better in some cases I don't think Obi could replicate Banes feat of standing in a rain storm for 10 minutes and remain dry.

Ataru: Yoda no question.

Djem So/ Shien: Anakin is the best in that department.

Juyo/Vapaad: Mace Windu was the master of Vapaad but I seem to recall that Sidious prefered Juyo above the others.

But nowhere is a true Niman master to be found or at least mentioned, I always wondered why but then a saw a VS video on youtube Exar Kun VS Dooku and then it hit me. Niman is called the diplomats form easily learned so that you can focus on other skills but in order to master it Cin Dralig claims it requires 10 years of dedicated training.

What does that tell us? That there is a lot more to Niman than meets the eyes. The forms bladework is described as lazy but both Exar Kun and Darth Krayt was Niman specialists and thy were regarded as among the best duelist of their era. I can only draw the conclution that none of the jedi had chosen to embrace Niman as a true fighting style instead theu used it as a crutch to help them while they talked themsevles out of whatever violent situation they had ended up in.

We never see Niman onscreen but it is described as a mixed martial arts-like form supported by force based attacks, whuch seems like a very handy form to know. Sure the bladework of the form was not that advanced with simple moves bit it incouraged creativity and versitility making it handy no matter the situation if you took it seriously.

I would really like to see it onscreen as it is described. Maybee the user is wielding two sabers constantly guiding one of them in a continous saber throw while deflecting blaster bolt with his primary saber. Then he faces of against a couple of other force-users. He starts of with a simple exhange of blows then he gets creative. He breaks the Djem So stylists footing bu stomping a force blast right between his feat knocking of balance then throws one saber toward the Ataru-guys legs as the man finishes his fancy flipp and then takes his head of while his guard is lowered. He continues to keep the Djem SO man off-balance with stoomps to the ground that prevents him to use the bodyweight-behind-the-blade that Djem So requires and then goes in for the kill.

That is just my opinion of how Niman could work but from what i have read it seems like an accurate interpritation of the styles aproach to fighting.

So the sum of it all is that it seems like the Jedi had started to regard Niman as a form that you didn't study to hard because it required a warriors mind to use effectevly, with constant adaptation and force based attacksand the Jedi of that era hardly ever used to force to attack. It was just a lazy mans form despite what Exar Kun and later Darth Krayt proved so clearly.

That is just my thought that I wanted to get out there. Anyone else have any thoughts on the subject?

Ive seen these various combat forms named from time to time. In all honesty, ive never been inspired by the concept to look into the types, masters of said types or what exactly differeniates type from type. Who even conceptualized them in the first place? Lucas? Or more eu / fan created stuff?

Ashur

Ive seen these various combat forms named from time to time. In all honesty, ive never been inspired by the concept to look into the types, masters of said types or what exactly differeniates type from type. Who even conceptualized them in the first place? Lucas? Or more eu / fan created stuff?

 

Ashur

Lucas himself wanted the characters to have specific fighting styles in the Prequels to make them more unique I think. And then the EU pretty much gave it all backstory and canon.

The KOTOR games also brought to light the lightsaber forms I think there was some Lore there.

Count Dooku is probably the best example of a character with an iconic and unique fighting style with Makashi in the movies. Apparently Christopher Lee (RIP) was a duelist himself and good one at that. But that's pretty much how the magic of the EU works, it gives meaning to every little detail in the movies.

Revan would generally have used "Form VI - Niman". This form works well for anyone who is intelligent and adaptable, as Revan obviously was. It has no real weaknesses, and even though it is not as aggressive as other forms it enables the user to unleash powerful Force abilities more easily during combat. Revan was skilled in lightsaber combat, but knew true strength came from using all the other Force abilities in conjunction with lightsaber combat...

 

Source: Drew Karpyshyn

 

So, the first quote we have here is from the author of the Revan novelization and head writer of Knights of the Old Republic. What he says isn't much of a surprise, since we see Revan utilize a Niman maneuver against an Imperial Guardsman on Dromund Kaas and favored Jar'Kai in Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords and The Old Republic: Shadow of Revan. Revan's fighting style revolves around a Niman base and from that he draws on the other lightsaber styles as he sees fit for the situation. This is similar to the fighting style of Kyle Katarn, Battlemaster of the New Jedi Order.

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/profile/darthant66/blog/revans-lightsaber-abilities-overview-2018/97613/

Ive seen these various combat forms named from time to time. In all honesty, ive never been inspired by the concept to look into the types, masters of said types or what exactly differeniates type from type. Who even conceptualized them in the first place? Lucas? Or more eu / fan created stuff?

 

Ashur

I'm with you. It's a bit of overkill and I can't imagine the point of pondering such things. Maybe it came up because of the drought in real content before and after the sequels?

It is true, that there are essentially only two kinds of Niman practioners. The ones who do not want to dedicate to lightsaber combat, and the prodigies.

What made Niman so powerful, is that it in a way allows the force user to approach the battle from a perspective that none of the other forms truly allow. Yes, some shift from strength to speed, or acrobatics... But other than Vaapad, which very few learned due to its dangers, only Niman remained as the form that brought force power to a saber duel in more than a passing sense.

All force users could of course throw out a push, throw, pull, or etc in the heat of battle every now and then, but that is not what Niman helped with. Niman provided a form without a true weakness, while also not really excelling in any single thing. The good of that, is that unlike forms like Makashi, it doesn't have a natural counter other than superior skill. The catch 22 being that most Niman practioners did not practice much and thus lacked skill, due to it being thought of as the diplomat form.

Those who took it to its Nth degree though... Each and every one of them is remembered as being one of the greatest saber duelists of their respective era's. Exar Kun for example is infamous for his Niman, as well as his tendancy to incorporate force strikes into his saber sequences. Yes, most jedi/sith could use the force during combat, but Niman essentially allowed them to do it flawlessly, without wavering in their saber movements. Kun for example, used this proficiency to unleash powerful blasts of force energy which could K.O. an opponent with one shot, if they were not prepared.

Other examples being when Niman is mixed with Sokan, where the environment and force combat proficiency combine to make something truly terrifying.

That is not to say that Niman is inherently superior to the other saber forms, far from it, but for one of an acute mind and with the talent, it allows the user to not just fight with the blade but their mind as well. The other forms each have their own pros/cons, whereas Niman balances out, ultimately making it the most adaptable form. If there is one thing to NEVER be underestimated in combat... it is sheer adaptability.

That does not mean that it will out-do the other forms though, since adaptability is no good if they are not given the chance to adapt, such as when Djem So users batter through an opponents defense with sheer strength before they can muster a proper defense. Mmm... I suppose another way to say it, is that all of the saber forms are somewhere along the edges of a circle, judging where their natural speed, strength, and mobility and such are. Whereas unlike the others, Niman is in the center of the circle instead of along the edges. It does not have innate speed advantage, nor disadvantage. Nor strength advantage, or disadvantage. It merely is completely balanced.

One of the difficult things about taking something so balanced, to such a high level like some of the Jedi and Sith did during the time of the movies, is that each if something is completely balanced... how does one make it better, without creating a weakness? Therein lies the issue, since Niman practicioners who did indeed seek to improve, ended up relegating Niman to a secondary form and taking another form as their new primary, to improve.

It is only in the very rare cases of true masters of saber combat, that they are able to boost all of the elements of Niman and stay true to the form, without having to lean on another form to boost them up.

I suppose what my sleep depraved mind is trying to say... Is that there are so few masters of Niman, precisely BECAUSE it is so balanced, that to improve it would cause imbalance which would then lead them to another form that they would likely then prefer, which leads them to no longer seeking to perfect Niman, but rather to focus on their own strengths. Individuals who are truly balanced and thus capable of fully utilizing Niman to its Nth degree, are much harder to come by, in my opinion at least, than most of the other traits that the other forms thrive off of.

*looks over text wall* Gosh dang it, meant to just do a sentence or two... Ah well... Last paragraph has the summery if you want to skip the bloat...

It is true, that there are essentially only two kinds of Niman practioners. The ones who do not want to dedicate to lightsaber combat, and the prodigies.

 

What made Niman so powerful, is that it in a way allows the force user to approach the battle from a perspective that none of the other forms truly allow. Yes, some shift from strength to speed, or acrobatics... But other than Vaapad, which very few learned due to its dangers, only Niman remained as the form that brought force power to a saber duel in more than a passing sense.

 

All force users could of course throw out a push, throw, pull, or etc in the heat of battle every now and then, but that is not what Niman helped with. Niman provided a form without a true weakness, while also not really excelling in any single thing. The good of that, is that unlike forms like Makashi, it doesn't have a natural counter other than superior skill. The catch 22 being that most Niman practioners did not practice much and thus lacked skill, due to it being thought of as the diplomat form.

 

Those who took it to its Nth degree though... Each and every one of them is remembered as being one of the greatest saber duelists of their respective era's. Exar Kun for example is infamous for his Niman, as well as his tendancy to incorporate force strikes into his saber sequences. Yes, most jedi/sith could use the force during combat, but Niman essentially allowed them to do it flawlessly, without wavering in their saber movements. Kun for example, used this proficiency to unleash powerful blasts of force energy which could K.O. an opponent with one shot, if they were not prepared.

 

Other examples being when Niman is mixed with Sokan, where the environment and force combat proficiency combine to make something truly terrifying.

 

That is not to say that Niman is inherently superior to the other saber forms, far from it, but for one of an acute mind and with the talent, it allows the user to not just fight with the blade but their mind as well. The other forms each have their own pros/cons, whereas Niman balances out, ultimately making it the most adaptable form. If there is one thing to NEVER be underestimated in combat... it is sheer adaptability.

 

That does not mean that it will out-do the other forms though, since adaptability is no good if they are not given the chance to adapt, such as when Djem So users batter through an opponents defense with sheer strength before they can muster a proper defense. Mmm... I suppose another way to say it, is that all of the saber forms are somewhere along the edges of a circle, judging where their natural speed, strength, and mobility and such are. Whereas unlike the others, Niman is in the center of the circle instead of along the edges. It does not have innate speed advantage, nor disadvantage. Nor strength advantage, or disadvantage. It merely is completely balanced.

 

One of the difficult things about taking something so balanced, to such a high level like some of the Jedi and Sith did during the time of the movies, is that each if something is completely balanced... how does one make it better, without creating a weakness? Therein lies the issue, since Niman practicioners who did indeed seek to improve, ended up relegating Niman to a secondary form and taking another form as their new primary, to improve.

 

It is only in the very rare cases of true masters of saber combat, that they are able to boost all of the elements of Niman and stay true to the form, without having to lean on another form to boost them up.

 

I suppose what my sleep depraved mind is trying to say... Is that there are so few masters of Niman, precisely BECAUSE it is so balanced, that to improve it would cause imbalance which would then lead them to another form that they would likely then prefer, which leads them to no longer seeking to perfect Niman, but rather to focus on their own strengths. Individuals who are truly balanced and thus capable of fully utilizing Niman to its Nth degree, are much harder to come by, in my opinion at least, than most of the other traits that the other forms thrive off of.

 

 

*looks over text wall* Gosh dang it, meant to just do a sentence or two... Ah well... Last paragraph has the summery if you want to skip the bloat...

I think you have summed up the subjects quite nicely.

Something to keep in mind. Martial artists who use specific styles will tell you this. There is no such thing as an ultimate style, or this is better than the other. There are only dangerous people. Know why Exar Kun made Nimian so dangerous. Because HE pushed himself to make the form dangerous.

It's the wielder using the form, not the form itself.

I know he isn't cannon (thank the maker) but Starkiller's clone is what you can expect from a Niman Combat Specialist. To be fair I like to think of Niman as more of the trickster's form than the Diplomats, as most who used it and specialized in combat tended to fight what would be considered dirty, turning a weapon on and off mid fight to throw off the opponent, using the hilt of the blade to surprise an enemy, or adding force based elements to their strikes to make them harder to defend against.

In that way, noone in the movies really fights that way. We never see someone use a lighting infused saber, or push hit someone with the hilt while simultaneously pushing them back with the force. Most fighters are fairly straight forward, which is weird considering many of the lightsaber duels you see are with Sith.

There is a theory that Darth Maul used Niman for the majority of his first appearance, only using Juyo when him and Qui-gon were alone. While there is much evidence for it, there are still holes so that's more up to the viewer than anything else.