You make a good point on the damage of Electric Execution. Eh, I guess it depends on whether you are having trouble keeping on your target in combat.

 

Edit: Movement speed is does not stack with sprint.

Sprint doesn't work in combat. So when you start fighting sprint drops and obfuscation keeps you at +15% move speed which is absolutely necessary to keep you from being kited by good players since our slow can't be kept up all the time with that spec.

Oh, by more force regen you meant the negligible amount of force you get from lightning reflexes. That's almost like the build i linked except you too passed up the +movespeed from obfuscation.

 

About Darkswell, it's gotten so that your force cloak doesn't make you immune to healing. Since shields are pretty useless in pvp, it's a better place to put your last point than dark ward. It's really a talent for group pvp, so that you can force cloak when you get low and your healer can you heal you back up to full. Otherwise healers will try to heal you and just see zeros pop up, and they'll move on and start healing other people leaving you stuck at 1% hp.

ya, you are right i forgot to move those points over.

did not notice he put them there.

and lighting reflexes bumps you form 8->10 force per second. for 15 seconds. its more then negligible.

Oh, by more force regen you meant the negligible amount of force you get from lightning reflexes. That's almost like the build i linked except you too passed up the +movespeed from obfuscation.

 

About Darkswell, it's gotten so that your force cloak doesn't make you immune to healing. Since shields are pretty useless in pvp, it's a better place to put your last point than dark ward. It's really a talent for group pvp, so that you can force cloak when you get low and your healer can you heal you back up to full. Otherwise healers will try to heal you and just see zeros pop up, and they'll move on and start healing other people leaving you stuck at 1% hp.

Don't get me wrong, I really like Darkswell as Deception spec...

It would probably be better to put those 2 points from Lighting Reflexes into something else then due to the lack of usefulness of shield in PvP

Don't get me wrong, I really like Darkswell as Deception spec...

 

It would probably be better to put those 2 points from Lighting Reflexes into something else then due to the lack of usefulness of shield in PvP

Defense and shields are different, but neither is all that useful in pvp. Though defense is definitely better since it's not negated by crits like shields are. Also it gives some minor force back when you're attacked. Besides, the other talents to choose from are all useless. You either take 4% defense (plus some extra force when attacked) or 2% endurance imo.

Defense and shields are different, but neither is all that useful in pvp. Though defense is definitely better since it's not negated by crits like shields are. Also it gives some minor force back when you're attacked. Besides, the other talents to choose from are all useless. You either take 4% defense (plus some extra force when attacked) or 2% endurance imo.

ya and at 20k hp thats only 400 hp.

ya, you are right i forgot to move those points over.

did not notice he put them there.

and lighting reflexes bumps you form 8->10 force per second. for 15 seconds. its more then negligible.

That's if you're parrying attacks EVERY second, which isn't going to happen realistically unless you're getting attacked by a lot of people and you pop deflection. It's not a bad talent at all, and it's certainly far better than your other options, but the force regen it gives really isn't noticeable.

ya and at 20k hp thats only 400 hp.

Yeah, so lightning reflexes is an easy choice over your other options.

Khaz, I'll test out your build as soon as I get out of the office ^_^

2/31/8 Deception Chain Shock is a lot of fun, but now that people are gearing up equally my survivability and damage has dropped. Looking forward to testing it out.

That's if you're parrying attacks EVERY second, which isn't going to happen realistically unless you're getting attacked by a lot of people and you pop deflection. It's not a bad talent at all, and it's certainly far better than your other options, but the force regen it gives really isn't noticeable.

and like i said in my post,

lightning reflexes gives deflection a nice force boost as well, when you are being attacked.

my minor quibbles would be to to go for the higher stealth levels over the reduced discharge cooldown. Also points into lightning reflexes over electric execution.

A build like this was proposed in the shadow forums a couple weeks ago and I think one of the nice things about it is that you can single-mindedly stack surge.

You can estimate 5% crit as 5% DPS (kind of overvalue crit, but not incredibly so). You lose a lot more than 5% crit for switching 4 pieces of Stalker to Survivor. 565 Power is 20% tooltip DPS, so 141 Power = 5% of your DPS, and you can certainly lose that much power from 4 pieces of Stalker. You also lose willpower too (Stalker has more willlpower than Survivor). Your damage would be strictly worse, which would be okay if you make that up with survivality, but you won't because shield/defense pretty much doesn't work in PvP. Yes you get more HPs too, but that's actually bad because if someone sees you have 20K HP, they know you're not wearing DPS gear so you can't even function as a decoy, because they'll just ignore you. I guess that's technically more survivality but it's not in a good way. You don't want increased survivality because you're no threat to anyone.

Everyone here is wrong about Stalker vs Survivor. Please check the gear. If you put stalker mods in your Survivor gear they will have the EXACT SAME STATS.

You lose NO DAMAGE from using survivor gear with stalker mods. Overall you GAIN 5% damage. And if you were cool enough to grab at least 23 points in Darkness then you can have a 2 sec CC every 20 sec.

Also the 15% move speed does not work while out of stealth.

Everyone here is wrong about Stalker vs Survivor. Please check the gear. If you put stalker mods in your Survivor gear they will have the EXACT SAME STATS.

 

You lose NO DAMAGE from using survivor gear with stalker mods. Overall you GAIN 5% damage. And if you were cool enough to grab at least 23 points in Darkness then you can have a 2 sec CC every 20 sec.

 

Also the 15% move speed does not work while out of stealth.

Obfuscation does work out of stealth, it just doesn't stack with sprint. Test it out, it's very noticeable.

Good call on the gear though. I thought the expertise was on the mods like the lvl 40ish gear but it's actually built into the item. I can see replacing the mods getting pretty expensive though.

Since there are always two type of armoring (one for DPS one for tank) I don't see why this scheme would change just because you can't see the armoring on the gear. Presumably Survivor has the armoring that's higher endurance lower willpower and vice versa for Stalker. Now since you can't see the armoring we have no idea what the difference is, but there is probably a difference. Given the hilt/armoring/barrel always accounts for the majority of the piece's stats I won't be surprised if it's say 20 willpower per piece, and if that's the case you're still giving up a lot of damage stats for the bonus.

You also need to get the Stalker armor first to pull out the mods, so it's not like getting Survivor armor first makes any sense.

Since there are always two type of armoring (one for DPS one for tank) I don't see why this scheme would change just because you can't see the armoring on the gear. Presumably Survivor has the armoring that's higher endurance lower willpower and vice versa for Stalker. Now since you can't see the armoring we have no idea what the difference is, but there is probably a difference. Given the hilt/armoring/barrel always accounts for the majority of the piece's stats I won't be surprised if it's say 20 willpower per piece, and if that's the case you're still giving up a lot of damage stats for the bonus.

 

You also need to get the Stalker armor first to pull out the mods, so it's not like getting Survivor armor first makes any sense.

The armor sets all have the exact same armoring mod. You are correct that you have to get extra gear for it to work. Use whatever works for you just make sure that when you get extra you are doing the smart thing and picking the gear that gives Crit + Surge. If stalker gear doesn't get crit + Surge make sure you get the tank piece.

Obfuscation does work out of stealth, it just doesn't stack with sprint. Test it out, it's very noticeable.

 

Good call on the gear though. I thought the expertise was on the mods like the lvl 40ish gear but it's actually built into the item. I can see replacing the mods getting pretty expensive though.

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=233619

This is where I was getting my info. If they are wrong you should correct them. Do more testing and let me know ASAP. However it will not change my build from 31/0/10 or 23/0/18. These 2 are the most perfect pvp builds.

23/0/18 is beastly

Pretty much any build that isn't mostly darkness is useless.

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=233619

 

This is where I was getting my info. If they are wrong you should correct them. Do more testing and let me know ASAP. However it will not change my build from 31/0/10 or 23/0/18. These 2 are the most perfect pvp builds.

A lot of people have already tested it, and from using it i can tell you it definitely works out of stealth.

In that thread they didn't even test it they just said, "says to increase movement speed by 15% which indicate all in stealth/out of stealth movement, which may not be the case."

The bug they were actually reporting was that obfuscation/misdirection actually makes you SLOWER while in stealth and out of combat because it overrides sprint. Which i noticed too, though i wasn't sure what was causing it. Hopefully it gets fixed.

A lot of people have already tested it, and from using it i can tell you it definitely works out of stealth.

 

In that thread they didn't even test it they just said, "says to increase movement speed by 15% which indicate all in stealth/out of stealth movement, which may not be the case."

 

The bug they were actually reporting was that obfuscation/misdirection actually makes you SLOWER while in stealth and out of combat because it overrides sprint. Which i noticed too, though i wasn't sure what was causing it. Hopefully it gets fixed.

Good to know. TBH I love having all of the information so thank you for that. But to stay on topic, 23/0/18 > a full shock build. They have more defense and more control with the same damage.

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=233619

 

This is where I was getting my info. If they are wrong you should correct them. Do more testing and let me know ASAP. However it will not change my build from 31/0/10 or 23/0/18. These 2 are the most perfect pvp builds.

Yeah I've already tried those builds. Not my playstyle. I'm looking for more of a high burst damage spec that has the survivability to last a little longer than 2/31/8

Good to know. TBH I love having all of the information so thank you for that. But to stay on topic, 23/0/18 > a full shock build. They have more defense and more control with the same damage.

23/0/18 doesn't seem like a very efficient build. Spamming shock without induction is gonna run you out of force quick.

I like most of your build, just not sure I would go 12 points into Deception.

Instead I'd use those points more on Madness and Darkness.

From Haunted Dreams give you another instant stun and lowering the CD of Electrocute is not a bad thing either. This opens up for Unearthed Knowledge, where your Shock gives a 10% melee damage bonus.

This is 6 of the 12 Points in Deception.

2 points in Lightning Reflexes in Darkness opens up for the next Darkness tier (and gives you a little force regeneration and more defense), where we have Blood of the Sith, a 3 point spec for 30% more force regeneration.

The last point can be spent where it fits, perhaps Dark Embrace, for more force regeneration after leaving stealth.

23/0/18 doesn't seem like a very efficient build. Spamming shock without induction is gonna run you out of force quick.

No it won't. 18+ Madness gives exactly as good energy regen as 12+ Deception for the Thrash -> Thrash -> Shock rotation. Math below, if you're interested.

Sure, when I tank in PvE with 23/0/18 I need to use the "white attack" every now and then. In PvP, with downtime being CC'ed, switching targets, ... I almost never feel I go out of force with a 23/0/18 build as long as I watch my procs and cast Shock on every autocrit, no more or less.

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Here's the simple math: Assuming rotation of Thrash->Thrash->Shock as thats most optimal for the Induction. Also assuming Torment.

Cost would be: 23 + 23+ 19.5 = 65.5 energy.

Without Induction cost is 23 + 23 + 39 = 85 energy.

This seems worse ... but: Then comes "Blood of Sith", increasing energy regen by 30%! (18+ points in Madness.) In the time you get 65.5 energy regenerated in the suggested build, you would have regenerated 85.15 energy with the other build. Making Force for this rotation work exactly as good with both builds!

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As a sidenote, i you want truly horrific energy regen, go 18/13/10. I doubt you manage to run out of energy even on-target in PvE as long as you limit Shocks to every time it autocrits (which is often!). :-D

PS: Not saying this build is good for PvP/good dps (haven't tried it yet), just that you will have "limitless" energy for Thrash -> Shock spaming!

No it won't. 18+ Madness gives exactly as good energy regen as 12+ Deception for the Thrash -> Thrash -> Shock rotation. Math below, if you're interested.

 

Sure, when I tank in PvE with 23/0/18 I need to use the "white attack" every now and then. In PvP, with downtime being CC'ed, switching targets, ... I almost never feel I go out of force with a 23/0/18 build as long as I watch my procs and cast Shock on every autocrit, no more or less.

 

-----

 

Here's the simple math: Assuming rotation of Thrash->Thrash->Shock as thats most optimal for the Induction. Also assuming Torment.

Cost would be: 23 + 23+ 19.5 = 65.5 energy.

 

Without Induction cost is 23 + 23 + 39 = 85 energy.

This seems worse ... but: Then comes "Blood of Sith", increasing energy regen by 30%! (18+ points in Madness.) In the time you get 65.5 energy regenerated in the suggested build, you would have regenerated 85.15 energy with the other build. Making Force for this rotation work exactly as good with both builds!

 

-----

 

As a sidenote, i you want truly horrific energy regen, go 18/13/10. I doubt you manage to run out of energy even on-target in PvE as long as you limit Shocks to every time it autocrits (which is often!). :-D

PS: Not saying this build is good for PvP/good dps (haven't tried it yet), just that you will have "limitless" energy for Thrash -> Shock spaming!

+30% force regen doesn't give "exactly as good force regen" as induction. It's only 50% as good as Induction. That may not sound like much but it makes a difference if you want stay in a fight for any extended period of time.

The Math: Our force regens at 8 force a second, a +30% increase gives you 2.4 more force per second. So since every thrash, thrash, shock rotation takes 4.5 seconds (3 GCDs), you're only saving 10.8 force regen, versus 19.5 force regen from induction. So +30% force regen gives you 2.4 more force a second versus 4.33 more force per second from Induction.

------

But that's obviously not the only benefit of going into deception.

Dark Embrace gives you an extra 24 force every fight when popping from stealth, and Darkswell gives you another 24 force regen on demand whenever you may need it, plus Darkswell allows you to be healed immediately after force cloaking which can be a lifesaver in group pvp.

Duplicity is a really excellent source of cheap damage. It's ALWAYS up after one thrash thrash shock combo, and maul crits extremely hard with 50% armor penetration and Induction.

Also i don't know if i can live without Obfuscation. A lot of classes have similar +15% movespeed talents and i feel like I would be far too easy to kite without it considering how weak our slow is.

------

I gotta say though, in the past I forgot to factor in the force savings from Torment when thinking about how important Induction is; Torment actually lowers it's value a bit but it's still about double the regen.

Then again with rumors about Induction being changed to only work with Surging/Lightning charge, i may have to give 23/0/18 a try and see how it performs. I just hate how weak shields are in this game and i don't want to be forced to waste points in shield talents now that i'm using a focus offhand instead, and i will have to do that if i'm putting 23 points into Darkness.

+30% force regen doesn't give "exactly as good force regen" as induction. It's only 50% as good as Induction. That may not sound like much but it makes a difference if you want stay in a fight for any extended period of time.

 

The Math: Our force regens at 8 force a second, a +30% increase gives you 2.4 more force per second. So since every thrash, thrash, shock rotation takes 4.5 seconds (3 GCDs), you're only saving 10.8 force regen, versus 19.5 force regen from induction. So +30% force regen gives you 2.4 more force a second versus 4.33 more force per second from Induction.

Nope, they're equal. Your math is wrong. (Your error lies in using "GCDs" instead of "force required" as the basis.)

Let me put it this way: (both versions still have Torment)

* Induction build regens 8 force a second, and requires 65.5 force for the combo. Thats approx. 8.2 (65.5/8) seconds of regeneration to aquire needed amount og force.

* Blood of Sith regens 10.4 force a second, and requires 85 force for the combo. Thats approx 8.2 (85/10.4) seconds of regeneration to aquire needed amount of force.

Maybe putting it this way made it clearer? :-)

Nope, they're equal. Your math is wrong. (Your error lies in using "GCDs" instead of "force required" as the basis.)

 

Let me put it this way: (both versions still have Torment)

* Induction build regens 8 force a second, and requires 65.5 force for the combo. Thats approx. 8.2 (65.5/8) seconds of regeneration to aquire needed amount og force.

* Blood of Sith regens 10.4 force a second, and requires 85 force for the combo. Thats approx 8.2 (85/10.4) seconds of regeneration to aquire needed amount of force.

 

Maybe putting it this way made it clearer? :-)

What are you talking about? You have to account for the time span of your thrash thrash shock combo in order to estimate how much your regening.

Induction grants you 19.5 force regen every thrash thrash shock combo.

Every Thrash Thrash Shock combo takes 4.5 seconds to execute.

Therefore the force regen per second granted by Induction = 19.5 divided 4.5 which equals 4.33333333333333.

Meanwhile Blood of the Sith gives 2.4 more regen per second since 2.4 is 30% of 8 (our base regen).