It's a mobility meta ever since 3.0

Guess what? Majority of ranged class archetypes combat style is around Control or Tempo... how do you control your opponent as ranged? Most by roots and slows, a style known as 'kiting'.

How does Tempo ramp up? By peeling which increases the gap in strength between you and your opponent.

 

Now, let's revise

It's a mobility meta

 

Noticing the conflict in interest?

 

The biggest problem is the skill gap is so stupidly low and easy, any player can look like they're doing an adequate job if they simply mash enough buttons they'll eventually press the right one at the right time.

Classes in general both ranged and melee have too much utility. It's too easy

 

The achilles heel of melees (from back in the day) is that they had super high value, but in a single cooldown/application. They were usually a "one size fits all cooldown", but the problem was... it was a cooldown, when it's used... it's used.

If you pull it off, you look great and you keep doing it until your luck runs out.

If you failed, you have to face heavy punishment and learn to do things the hard way

Now you have melee classes being taken up to the level of around... 5 nearing 6 defensives.

Yeah melees will outlast you vs ranged. But instead of swtor realising this, they think the solution is to increase ranged defensive options. Which is completely wrong.

 

It's one of the reasons why Powertechs are complaining about poor survivability. Because they don't think a PT/VG cannot survive, they're comparing their own survival functionality to that of a counterpart or another class. And simply put, theirs not only looks inferior, it also looks obsolete.

 

That's just how it is, bad developers with no game sense will create updates that will benefit people with no game sense... who would've thought?

And before you pop a defensive cooldown of your own, no. It's not an insult, it's a fact. Be realistic and open your eyes and realise a bad outcome doesn't change just because it hurts.

Edited February 6, 2018 by Bonzenaattori

The achilles heel of melees (from back in the day) is that they had super high value, but in a single cooldown/application. They were usually a "one size fits all cooldown", but the problem was... it was a cooldown, when it's used... it's used.

If you pull it off, you look great and you keep doing it until your luck runs out.

 

I've been trying not to say anything further to this thread... But seriously it's one awesome melee spec: fury mara.

And technically two sucky ranged specs: dps sorc.

 

As someone who played a vigi guardian for nearly a year, I have practically no sympathy for mercs or snipers.

I've been trying not to say anything further to this thread... But seriously it's one awesome melee spec: fury mara.

And technically two sucky ranged specs: dps sorc.

 

As someone who played a vigi guardian for nearly a year, I have practically no sympathy for mercs or snipers.

 

If we expand the discussion beyond just DPS, some skank tanks are every bit as OP as mercs or snipers are currently. There are some skank tanks that when geared/played right are as hard or harder to kill than snipers or mercs (they should be) but who do as much or nearly as much damage. (they shouldn't).

 

I'd throw some skank tanks in the awesome melee category along with Fury Maras.

 

Carnage Maras can also be beastly but they're more dependent on having a healer than Fury.

Edited February 6, 2018 by Aeneas_Falco

If we expand the discussion beyond just DPS, some skank tanks are every bit as OP as mercs or snipers are currently. There are some skank tanks that when geared/played right are as hard or harder to kill than snipers or mercs (they should be) but who do as much or nearly as much damage. (they shouldn't).

 

I'd throw some skank tanks in the awesome melee category along with Fury Maras.

 

Carnage Maras can also be beastly but they're more dependent on having a healer than Fury.

 

Tanks are a different sort of discussion. When I tank I'm not running around trying to kill stuff generally. For my full opinion see my several hundred posts on the matter.

Tanks are a different sort of discussion. When I tank I'm not running around trying to kill stuff generally. For my full opinion see my several hundred posts on the matter.

 

Jugg skanks when geared & played right have the survivability of tanks but the DPS output of a pure DPS class. They may not technically be DPS, but they very much function as one.. And a pretty strong one at that.

 

So I'd have to disagree that Maras are the only awesome melee spec.

 

Skank tank Juggs are not infrequently in the top 3 on the DPS leaderboard. They may not put up 8k DPS but they don't have to in Regs. 3k-4k is olften enough to place at or very close to the top.

Jugg skanks when geared & played right have the survivability of tanks but the DPS output of a pure DPS class. They may not technically be DPS, but they very much function as one.. And a pretty strong one at that.

 

So I'd have to disagree that Maras are the only awesome melee spec.

 

Skank tank Juggs are not infrequently in the top 3 on the DPS leaderboard. They may not put up 8k DPS but they don't have to in Regs. 3k-4k is olften enough to place at or very close to the top.

 

I really didn't want to repeat myself here, but fine.

A. This thread was talking about dps specs.

B. The issue with dps calculations in war zones is the way thst dps is calculated. It's damage done total / total match time. Since the total match time is the same for everyone this is going to favor classes that live longer and result in more uptime. I do, however, agree that even then it should be possible, even theoretically. Much less happen as frequently as it does.

 

I've posted my karagga numbers elsewhere as an example of numbers thst do involve considerations of combat time.

 

A tank should he more survivable than a dps, otherwise what would be the point of tanking. It's like healing in the sense thst it's a separate role.

I really didn't want to repeat myself here, but fine.

A. This thread was talking about dps specs.

B. The issue with dps calculations in war zones is the way thst dps is calculated. It's damage done total / total match time. Since the total match time is the same for everyone this is going to favor classes that live longer and result in more uptime. I do, however, agree that even then it should be possible, even theoretically. Much less happen as frequently as it does.

 

I've posted my karagga numbers elsewhere as an example of numbers thst do involve considerations of combat time.

 

A tank should he more survivable than a dps, otherwise what would be the point of tanking. It's like healing in the sense thst it's a separate role.

 

I don't doubt that pure DPS classes outperform skank tanks with damage output in Operations. PVP functions so differently however that what happens in Operations has no bearing on what happens in PVP.

 

You know what else currently under performs in Operations, at least in NiM? Arsenal Merc. No one would say that Arsenal Mercs underperform in PVP however....at least not with a straight face.

 

The TTK in this game needs to come way down and fixing tanks and guard and the damage output of skanks (high damage by skanks adds to their survivability) is a part of that. Tanky DPS specs are another. Rather than adjusting squishy specs like Sorcs or DPS Powertechs so that they are as tanky as Mercs or Snipers, in PVP every DPS class should be as squishy as Sorcs & Powertechs. People should die a lot more often than they do in PVP. Personally I would prefer Bioware did that by PVP applying hefty debuffs so that PVE content isn't affected, but that's a discussion for another thread.

Edited February 6, 2018 by Aeneas_Falco

If you are getting out DPSed by a skank there is only one truth - You are trash

If you are getting out DPSed by a skank there is only one truth - You are trash

 

Honestly this. Can we all please move on now?

I don't doubt that pure DPS classes outperform skank tanks with damage output in Operations. PVP functions so differently however that what happens in Operations has no bearing on what happens in PVP.

 

You know what else currently under performs in Operations, at least in NiM? Arsenal Merc. No one would say that Arsenal Mercs underperform in PVP however....at least not with a straight face.

 

The TTK in this game needs to come way down and fixing tanks and guard and the damage output of skanks (high damage by skanks adds to their survivability) is a part of that. Tanky DPS specs are another. Rather than adjusting squishy specs like Sorcs or DPS Powertechs so that they are as tanky as Mercs or Snipers, in PVP every DPS class should be as squishy as Sorcs & Powertechs. People should die a lot more often than they do in PVP. Personally I would prefer Bioware did that by PVP applying hefty debuffs so that PVE content isn't affected, but that's a discussion for another thread.

 

Using mercs as an example proves my point. Give them a taunt and a guard and they'd be the best skanks in the game.

 

The truly annoying PvP skanks are not primarily concerned about damage they do, but damage they prevent.

 

Most of my survivability does not come from killing things.in fact that isn't a major factor assuming both teams have healers. Because actual dps specs have higher dps potential, assuming they live long enough, they will put more dps pressure on an enemy.

 

And therin lies the issue with point 2. Dps sorcs and pts aren't survivable enough compared to the top classes to put on thst pressure. This is a pure someone needs to be brought up or others need to be brought down issue. I think there's a middle ground between a sorc survivability and a merc survivability personally, but that's just me.

 

As far as the ttk issue: making things difficult to kill is literally my job in pvp, so thanks for the compliment.

If you are getting out DPSed by a skank there is only one truth - You are trash

 

Who said I got out DPSed about a tank? In regs I nearly always top the DPS leaderboard unless I'm on my healer.

 

I only said that skanks often fall into the top 3 DPS on leaderboards, and that is an absolute fact that anyone who queued for more than 10 warzones can attest to. Tanks should never finish near the top of DPS leaderboards at all, because they are not DPS.

 

The problem with SWTOR at the moment is that there are too many jacks-of-all-trade specs. You have DPS with the suvivability of tanks and tanks that function as strong DPS. PVP needs to be reworked so that no spec is a jack-of-all-trades.

Edited February 6, 2018 by Aeneas_Falco

Who said I got out DPSed about a tank? In regs I nearly always top the DPS leaderboard unless I'm on my healer.

 

I only said that skanks often fall into the top 3 DPS on leaderboards, and that is an absolute fact that anyone who queued for more than 10 warzones can attest to. Tanks should never finish near the top of DPS leaderboards at all, because they are not DPS.

 

The problem with SWTOR at the moment is that there are too many jacks-of-all-trade specs. You have DPS with the suvivability of tanks and tanks that function as strong DPS. PVP needs to be reworked so that no spec is a jack-of-all-trades.

 

If I do this there are a couple reasons, all of which come down to I survive longer.

Who said I got out DPSed about a tank? In regs I nearly always top the DPS leaderboard unless I'm on my healer.

 

I only said that skanks often fall into the top 3 DPS on leaderboards, and that is an absolute fact that anyone who queued for more than 10 warzones can attest to. Tanks should never finish near the top of DPS leaderboards at all, because they are not DPS.

 

The problem with SWTOR at the moment is that there are too many jacks-of-all-trade specs. You have DPS with the suvivability of tanks and tanks that function as strong DPS. PVP needs to be reworked so that no spec is a jack-of-all-trades.

 

As said, its survival, combined with a decent amount of AOE fluff, that gets tanks near the top of the DPS leaderboards, along with mediocre DPS teammates. Also I don't like where this is going when referencing Jugg tanks... in an ideal situation, yeah they can at times be the best skank tanks. But they're also the most easily kited and avoided, and have to work the hardest to get their damage on target, seeing as most of their abilities are 4 meters. While Sins and PT's have more 10 meter abilities, including both having semi-ranged or smart AOE attacks. This is a factor against actually good opponents. And balance should always be done from the top down if you want a decent meta.

 

I can't speak for all classes, but I think all Vigilance really needs is another movement tool. Perhaps allowing their force leaps to be used in melee range and double as root breakers, this would ensure the class gets optimal uptime on their 20% DR, and since it can also be used to break roots and avoid CC, will improve survivability to probably about where it should be, while still not being as broken as Fury Mara.

And, I remembered, except for the jump and frenzied acceleration there is also teleportation - instantaneous movement to the goal. And this you call the same mobility ?? HA HA HA

 

Yet. Did you try to slowly move back from the player with acceleration and shoot? It's not very true, is it? A shoot for the back comes out? Any melee simply runs through the ranged without stopping the cutting of meat. And turns on the spot for running around melee leaves? not losing attacks? I'm like a turret, right?

 

the enemy to the right and сuts, to the left and cuts, and to me means to guess where he will turn. And lose the attack when he slipped behind his back. Mistaken - the corpse. Ranged - for long-range combat, but they have almost no chance in this game to keep the distance. funny flying back does not help.

 

Trying to read the English but man really hard to grasp what is being said when some words translate into words I don't think your trying to use. But if your a sniper and your getting recked by melee your doing alot wrong. Sniper is right now sitting pretty much tied with merc as Over Powered Flavor of the past 8 months. Followed by Sorc heals because lets face it hard to kill a sorc heals so why not have four in every match. Mara is pretty much the only melee that will actually rend a sniper limb from limb a assassin can as well but pretty much has to eat a huge amount of dmg doing it. My advise is to go to you tube and watch a couple vids on how to play a sniper.

I use Google translator. I think that in the game there are huge problems with the very concept of combat, the player versus the player.

I often see the following picture - melee dps using huge acceleration roll on the field, as if cutting a group of shooters. In doing so, they constantly have both speed and the ability to jump. And constantly turn out behind the back of the arrow. The melee then goes to the right then to the left through the enemy is not difficult and he does not lose the attack at the same time. The shooter does not have this acceleration, jumps back and knocks on everything, and as soon as the target on the huge acceleration rolls behind him, he immediately loses the attack. The shooter does not have such speed, nor such immunities to control. .

 

You forgot to mention your composition? with who the system queues you with.. i.e. 3mercs and a tank or 2merc, 1snipe and tank and so on... theres a lot of important variables missing in your statement.. did the system queue you with a bunch of newbies v. seasonal players, undergear v. tier 3,..etc.. And is all about team effort, in other words..who as the "smarts" meaning which course of action did your teammates took while you got tunnel? did your teammates got kite, did they split the dps, or choose to focus tank instead of one the maras?

 

And more important is what you did while being tunnel? did you switch from FaceTank to Survival mode.. did you time your cd's correctly, kite etc.. Dont take me wrong I hate Maras, but in all faireness it would it had been great to see a video of the Match since there are too many variables missing in your statement, but still you do great point of view..

but still you do great point of view..

 

TY. In most cases, the tank helps poorly. Does not use guard swap, taunt. Two shooters flee somewhere in the hope of saving their lives and doing little damage. Maras also kill the third shooter, either immediately or as soon as the main protective ability (reflection, force barrier) ends. Often the healer does not help either.

 

By the way, everyone keeps silent about one more problem - I really can not understand anything and see on the screen where 4 or more melee are run with great acceleration. Can not you see anything, They run so fast that they are almost invisible, and 7 swords close most of their textures with their glow. Is this really called a game or is it a strange movie that I have to watch? Sometimes it takes 3 seconds, I did not see anything, but I'm already dead. They shaved me. While I also lose half of the attacks, because they will run through my back, but I just do not understand this.

However, with maras it is useless to talk about attacks - the whole round should be tried to escape. So it is necessary - to run, run, run. While you are cut, cut, cut.

I'm sorry, I don't understand your point here.

Mercs have among the best DCDs on the non-tank specs and arguably better than PT tank DCDs. That's on top of exceptional self healing and range. The issue mercs have is thanks to their incredible survivability, their damage got nerfed substantially

 

Oh the heck it did! The nerf was an utter joke! Merc's are prime examples on how giving uber DCD and high DPS break trinity! Its simple your either a Pure DPS spec in which case you SHOULD be a glass cannon such as sins and maras OR your have increased survival BUT if this is the case your DPS should be neutered that is to say it should never be able to put out the DPS of a pure DPS spec. Why because your a hybrid your not Pure DPS your not pure tank your half of both! As it stand now Mercs still do HIGH DPS, Have awesome DCD's, Throw in thier heals and BAM it's an I win class hands down which everyone will flock to and why we now see a minimum of at least 3 mercs in every match.

Edited February 11, 2018 by Kazz_Devlin

I don't doubt that pure DPS classes outperform skank tanks with damage output in Operations. PVP functions so differently however that what happens in Operations has no bearing on what happens in PVP.

 

You know what else currently under performs in Operations, at least in NiM? Arsenal Merc. No one would say that Arsenal Mercs underperform in PVP however....at least not with a straight face.

 

The TTK in this game needs to come way down and fixing tanks and guard and the damage output of skanks (high damage by skanks adds to their survivability) is a part of that. Tanky DPS specs are another. Rather than adjusting squishy specs like Sorcs or DPS Powertechs so that they are as tanky as Mercs or Snipers, in PVP every DPS class should be as squishy as Sorcs & Powertechs. People should die a lot more often than they do in PVP. Personally I would prefer Bioware did that by PVP applying hefty debuffs so that PVE content isn't affected, but that's a discussion for another thread.

 

The problem is tanks doing DPS at all break trinity. If you want to do dmg play a DPS spec Tanks should be a support class. There's even cannon for it Jed/Sith battle meditation. Instead of dmg they give buffs debuffs via channeling. Take sorc bubble away and give to all tanks thoug change so that some dmg gets through. Have a high hitpoint threshold on barrier so would take a while to bring down. So the tank could channel a buff for say 5% dmg boost if dmg gets through it would push back to maybe 1% and have to be built back up. Utilities could be multiple buffs channeled at cost of over-all barrier hitpoint reduction, Reduced push back effect, lock a channel so effect is constant, mobile channeling, obfuscation etc etc. this would at least be a step in right direction negates Tanks doing Dmg at all save for maybe basic attacks that come with classes.

Edited February 11, 2018 by Kazz_Devlin

TY. In most cases, the tank helps poorly. Does not use guard swap, taunt. Two shooters flee somewhere in the hope of saving their lives and doing little damage. Maras also kill the third shooter, either immediately or as soon as the main protective ability (reflection, force barrier) ends. Often the healer does not help either.

 

By the way, everyone keeps silent about one more problem - I really can not understand anything and see on the screen where 4 or more melee are run with great acceleration. Can not you see anything, They run so fast that they are almost invisible, and 7 swords close most of their textures with their glow. Is this really called a game or is it a strange movie that I have to watch? Sometimes it takes 3 seconds, I did not see anything, but I'm already dead. They shaved me. While I also lose half of the attacks, because they will run through my back, but I just do not understand this.

However, with maras it is useless to talk about attacks - the whole round should be tried to escape. So it is necessary - to run, run, run. While you are cut, cut, cut.

 

well sounds to me like your on a really slow system or your connection speed is bad force speed only last for at best 15 seconds if its a assassin and operative rolls so not sure what your seeing. Completely at a loss for why they are shaving your unless your a hairy wookie. Operative have an ability that prevents turning for 3 secs I sooo wish sins had this or at least an ability that slowed the rate at which you could turn.

TY.

By the way, everyone keeps silent about one more problem - I really can not understand anything and see on the screen where 4 or more melee are run with great acceleration. Can not you see anything, They run so fast that they are almost invisible, and 7 swords close most of their textures with their glow. Is this really called a game or is it a strange movie that I have to watch? Sometimes it takes 3 seconds, I did not see anything, but I'm already dead. They shaved me. While I also lose half of the attacks, because they will run through my back, but I just do not understand this.

However, with maras it is useless to talk about attacks - the whole round should be tried to escape. So it is necessary - to run, run, run. While you are cut, cut, cut.

 

The acceleration you refering to is call "Predation" one of the Maras abilities, which increase speed by a ridiculous amount.. this ability is sometimes mistaken for "speed hacking" but is not, and if apply correctly by 3Maras it can last for the entire match.. 3Maras can be defeated, but your team as to be good and on point.

well sounds to me like your on a really slow system.

 

I have a 70 level assassin. Which shears. I know how it rushes under acceleration. For the time of one mercs burst, I can pass right-left 4!!!!!! times. And the glow of the two-bladed sword closes everything (lacerate). And we have 30% passive slow with lacerate. I enable this in perks.

The acceleration you refering to is call "Predation

 

Exactly. I believe that the speed of the Jedi or the Sith must match the speed of our human reaction. It's already pretty fast. + 30 percent more and cleaning of the slowing effects was a mistake. I have a mara and sentinel level 70.

Looks like they found their guy

 

OMG you lost me here hahahhahahhahhahhah

yesterday by the way saw in pvp. 4 ranged hands were not looking at the map. They know that you do not get into you, you have to run fast in different directions and occasionally jump and hack. And they run around, almost without looking where they run. Chaotically change the trajectories. Is it exactly pvp? Something I do not like PVP, I will have to deal with operations.