We all know BioWare will nerf the Static Barrier/Force Armor by allowing it to burst on the caster only. When that is removed, both the Sorcerer & Sage will lose more utility, especially in the PvP warzones. However, after some thought, I found a few things that could help these two ACs survivability, utility, and improve overall performance. Now this will focus more on the DPS trees than healing; however, these suggestions will have an indirect effect on healers too.

First, I believe we all can agree that the number one problem for all Sorcerers/Sages is their survivability or lack thereof. There are a number of ways to adjust this to increase these AC’s survivability without wrecking the balance in my opinion. Both ACs need improvement in mobility, defenses, and damage mitigation while improving damage ability. I think the following will do that without causing the glow stick warriors to wet themselves and run to the forums QQing. However, given their very nature, they’ll do that regardless because anything that mitigates their ability to kill their favorite targets in 3 or 4 GCDs harms their delicate mental stability.

Mobility:

It is time to make changes to the time required to cast/channel abilities for both ACs. Mobility is the single most important key to survival in PvE & PvP. For a class that is based on range kiting, they both lack the ability to shoot on the run with very few exceptions. While we have procs that allow us to fire of Chain Lightning, Lightning Strike, or Crushing Darkness for an example, when those aren’t up, we only have Shock & Affliction to use when no proc is available. So I propose the following:

1. Reduce the case time for Lightning Strike, Chain Lightning, Force Lightning, and Crushing Darkness by half. This will mean a Sorcerer will require only 1.4 seconds to fire off Force Lightning without the Lightning Barrage proc. When that proc is up, it will reduce that even further per the proc's affect. What this means is we do not have to become a turret to use Force Lightning. Conversely, the existing procs for Chain Lightning, Lightning Strike, or Crushing Darkness require no changes either. The same would apply to the Sage’s abilities too. What this means is a Sorcerer/Sage will spend less time standing still to use their abilities because of the improved mobility.
    
    
   
2. The ability of Fadeout should be moved from the healing tree and made into a baseline passive ability. Furthermore, Force Speed, for Sorcerers/Sages only, duration should be increased from 2 seconds to 3 seconds for the speed burst and 2 seconds after it is finished. Moreover, the cool down should be lowered by half since it is a vital component in these classes’ survivability. This gives both ACs increased mobility and make them immune from any and all movement affects when needed. So the force jumpers cannot stop us from getting away anymore even if they jump to us, we still retain our ability to move away from them. 5 Seconds of immunity from movement affects will increase the survivability of these ACs.
    
    
   
3. Change Subversion and Sith Efficacy’s effects (and the Sage’s mirror abilities) to include casting immunity. Subversion is a proc and should still continue the same manner. Importantly, Sith Efficacy and Subversion would have an additional proc that indicates casting immunity similar to the Assassin and Shadow. Lightning Strike or Crushing Darkness will continue to be the main catalyst for activation and doing so at [50/100%] depending on how many points are applied to this ability. What this will do is allow the Sorcerer (& Sage’s mirror) to get off their abilities while moving should a force jumper nail attack them.
    
    
   
4. Likewise, Thunder Blast cast time should be reduce to 1.5 seconds; however, when Lightning Storm procs, Thunder Blast should be an option to use along with Chain Lightning, making it an instant cast ability. Again, this would improve casting ability and mobility by giving the Sorcerer (& Sage’s mirror ability) to fire off their biggest ability on the run.
   

These four suggestions will have a profound effect on increasing survivability and utility of the Sorcerer/Sage classes in my opinion without breaking either class.

Defenses:

The Sorcerer/Sage’s current defenses are very limited or very weak. The following suggestions are meant to improve the existing defenses to help increase survivability and aid in their ability to better mobility.

1. Increase Sorcerer’s Sith Defiance & Sage’s Jedi Resistance from [1/2%] to [2/4%] and Corrupted Flesh and Mind Ward from [7.5/15%] to [10/20%].
    
    
   
2. Increase Static Barrier and Force Armor from [10/20%] to [15/30%] in absorbing damage.
    
    
   
3. When Static Barrier & Force Armor, on caster only, explodes, include a 360 degree 10 meter knockback that blinds and roots (only if specced through Backlash/Kinetic Collapse) for 8 seconds filling the resolve bar equal to Whirlwind or Force Lift. The blindness effect is caused by the flash of either power. Lastly, if someone clicks it off, IT WILL NOT WORK. It will only work if knocked down by damage or wears off.
   

Damage Mitigation:

Currently, neither AC has any damage mitigation; therefore, I propose the following suggestion to help mitigation damage improving survivability for both ACs.

1. Both the Sorcerer/Sage by their very nature is fragile wearing light armor and having no damage mitigation. What I propose is this, give the Sorcerer Force Shroud & the Sage Resilience as a baseline defensive ability very much like the Assassin/Shadows ability with the same cool down available at level 36 too.
   

Having the ability make the Sorcerer/Sage immune to damage for 3 seconds so they can escape will add to their survivability when focused on by multiple or a single opponent.

Damage Ability:

I believe we all can agree that a buff is needed for the DPS of the Sorcerer and Sages. However, where the disagreement comes into play is how much. So I propose the following:

1. Increase baseline damage by 5% across the board for all abilities. With the exception of the following abilities. Specced abilities would increase damage normally.
    
    
   
2. AOE attacks damage increased by 7.5% without respect to what any specced ability gives these two powers. This increase is a baseline increase, specced powers would increase the damage normally.
    
    
   
3. In the case of single burst damage, specifically Thunder Blast & Turbulence, increase these by 15% or an amount that would equal to any ranged DPS ability. Like the previous listed abilities, this increase is before any increase by specced abilities within their respective skill trees. Furthermore, this would be a true representation of a glass cannon that the Sorcerer/Sage are wearing light armor and limited defensive capabilities and damage mitigation, including the improvements listed.
   

These increases are moderate buffs except when it comes to an AOE or as specified for Thundering Blast and Turbulence. DPS will increase, meaning these two ACs will cause more damage and allowing both the Sorcerer and Sage to add more utility to the team’s overall ability within a warzone.

Conclusion:

Essentially these overall changes would allow the Sorcerer/Sage to increase their threat and/or survivability when faced against a glow stick warrior 1 v 1 or when they need to extricate themselves when focused on by multiple opponents. Improving Mobility and survivability are essential to increasing the Sorcerer and Sage’s viability in and out of a Warzone; I believe this will do just that. What it does not do is turn these classes into an OP class or make them invincible. With the combination of improved mobility, increased defensive capabilities, and damage mitigation, the Socerer/Sage has an overall improved suvivability making them harder to kill than what they are faced with in today's warzones.

Most sorcs want to be viable... you seem to want to be the best pvp class without question. Could you imagine the qq madness would get for having a spammable 3k move without crits.... that takes one global cooldown to cast?! 1.5 second force lightning is ridiculous. In conjunction with the knockback bubble blind and all the other insane changes you are bringing up the sorc would be the most ridiculously unbalanced class so far. Lets use reason with the changes we propose.

1.5 second Force Lightning is ridiculous? Is it now? Did you know that when Lightning Barrage procs I can cast Force Lightning at 1.4 seconds because my base cast time is 2.8 seconds? There's a proc to make casting Force Lightning to do what I suggested; however, instead of the normal gawd awful time of 3 seconds to cast it turning the Sorcerer into a turret, cast at half that time. Why? So the Sorcerer does not stand in place longer than necessary.

Guess what, I can spam Force Lightning already. I don’t have a cool down with it. I can cast it over and over and over again for as long as I am alive and have force. Lord help you if I have recklessness up! Guess what, I’m doing 1150 to 1250 points of critical damage, in some instances, higher. That’s what you get when you use a hybrid spec. You’d know this if you ran a Sorcerer/Sage DPS. This skill is in the Madness tree it’s called: Madness, giving Force Lightning no cool down.

Mobility is the key for this AC and the Sage to survivability. Likewise, if I can spec into having instant cast on Whirlwind, I should be able to have a Forcer Lightning cast at a faster rate. Casting time on both the Sorcerer/Sage is their downfall. Because of this, they have the least favorable survivability of all the ACs in the game. In other words, they were left behind and there is a huge gap between them and the others.

What I have offered is minor improvements of existing powers. Only someone who fears having a Sorcerer having the necessary mobility required to survive will fear this. I don't see you complaining about the Mercs, Troopers, Agents, or Smugglers having instant casts on some hard hitting abilities. However, to give a Sorcerer or Sage this, God forbid. It's ridiculous to be forced to stand in place to cast abilities that should be instant or have quick times to get off as quickly as possible. However, you'd want to keep Sorcerer's or Sages rooted to the ground in order to get off a cast like Lightning. Essentially, it means "Nothing is wrong here; all is well with this AC's abilities."

I say you're wrong. These changes are minor improvements on existing abilities that improve the Sorcerer's mobility, survivability, and viability. These changes would bring the Sorcerer/Sage DPS classes in line with the other DPS classes. However, I think that is what you fear the most. Stuns? Wasted on those who have specced themselves to have 4 seconds of immunity or have their magical barrier of invulnerability up (Assassins/Shadows) or those special tech shields that render the use the same. Bubble? Last only long enough to absorb a 4k+ hit, poof then gone. By the time it can be reapplied, guess what…Sorcerer/Sage is dead.

Listen, I have toons of every AC class of this game. I understand what they can do and cannot do. Of them all, the Sorcerer/Sage ACs are the worst of them all in those areas compounded by the fact they have Light Armor, no true defensive capabilities, or damage mitigation. I'm sorry, but Force Speed is not a true defense as it is immediately rendered mute when a Warrior or Jedi leap to the Sorcerer/Sage rooting it in place.

Bubble Stun is a nuisance at best. People are QQing that they get stunned by it when everyone coming out of the gate is sporting their own stun bubble. Guess what, I agree that the stun bubble on everyone other than the caster is ridiculous. In my hybrid build, I do not use it anymore. However, the bubble alone is a minor inconvenience. By changing it to knock someone back and blind them, means it has more utility. Giving it the same resolve results of Whirlwind answers those who QQ about being blinded for 3 seconds with very little resolve bar results. There is no difference from how this bubble stuns would work than Flash Bang Grenade thrown by Agents/Smugglers. They blind you leaving you rooted in place unable to do anything for 8 seconds. Giving the bubble knockback with a root and blind an opponent much like Flash Bang, allows the Sorcerer/Sage to increase the ability to survive. However, you fail to realize that should an attacker’s resolve bar be filled, this will have no effect on them other than rooting them in place. It is an escape mechanism for defensive purposes.

The fact is some of these improvements exist in some shape or form in the healing tree or part of the Inquisitor/Consular class. I'm just suggesting they be available to the Sorcerer/Sage DPS. OP, far from it. OP would give them an automatic crit that requires no critical mods/enhancements that hits everyone with 7k+automatic critical damage (depending on the gear) to 5 people in an AOE attack. That's OP. These changes would make the 31+ builds in Lightning and Madness better and improve overall performance.

Please continue to be condescending. Its great. You are the true forum warrior. You assume because my signature says healy sorc that I have never once respecced to damage? It probably never crossed your thick skull that I could say healy sorc because that's what I do when in rated warzones.

You are not asking for a madness mobility increase with these changes. Sure this would increase the lightning tree mobility, but it would also make them incredibly overpowered for PvE. Think about your only form of burst when playing the hybrid. The only decent burst in that spec is death field followed by a lightning barrage force lightning. If madness could cast force lightning in half the time that would essentially double the damage done by force lightning. That is not a mobility buff, that is a damage buff. As a min-maxed sorc you know that your force lightning does about 700 a tick on average without a crit. You should also know that a global cooldown is 1.5 seconds and can be reduced with alacrity. That is why nothing has a cast time of less than 1.5 seconds. What you are asking for is a spammable ability that hits for 2800 without crit that only takes one global cooldown to cast. How does this even remotely help your mobility? If you really play the hybrid you would know that force management is a non-issue in that spec, and that force lightning damage is front loaded, so half of it comes in the first second. If you are getting beat on and you think you half to cast a full force lightning, than your problem is not that you're a turret, its that you are playing this class wrong. Break off the force lightning. Nobody is forcing you to finish that channel.

In conclusion: You are asking for way too much with our class. The constant burst of lightning barrage would put sorcs in a place far too good. Your so called mobility buff would break them damage wise for PvP and PvE. If you would like it to take 1.5 seconds to cast half the normal damage you would be asking for a nerf, because any decent sorc knows it takes 1 second for that right now. Ask for a buff to our burst, or a slight damage increase... and a complete overhaul on lightning. That is what most sorcs want. Not to be broken, just to be viable.

P.S. It would help if you weren't so condescending in replying to the forums. Please do not assume things about players you have never played with or against. I spec damage quite frequently, and I use all the trees. I know what I am doing. I do not need to be told skills.

http://i.imgur.com/eFFLzBP.jpg

Looking at your suggestions I've come to the conclusion that your damage buffs are much better than you cast time reductions. Coming from a Lighting Build, cast times are long but not an issue. Polarity Shift, 4 Item PVE set bonus, and alacrity combined makes even a Force Lightning cast (2.7 seconds without any procs) into an average of 1.4 seconds. When the stars align and I have all of my procs up, its a 1 second cast time. Your proposed cast times would be insane for a Lightning spec and powerful for a madness or hybrid.

I don't object to your proposed damage increases because it would take parsing and proper rotations to test it fully. I am personally fine without a "free cast" type of ability like rapid shots since we have Affliction. It is much better for multi-target fights and with our excellent resource management I see little reason to include one. A free cast akin to rapid shots is only used in other dps rotations to conserve their resources, not increase dps. We are fine without it.

Why is it that every time someone makes one of these suggestion threads, the suggestions are always unrealistically numerous and overpowered? I mean, a 5 percent damage buff across the board (one of your suggestions) combined with a slight survivability buff would be enough to make Sorcs viable in ranked. And you make a dozen other suggestions. Some of these aren't bad, but if you implemented more than one or two of them, Sorcs would become so OP that it would be ridiculous. Just make us viable.

Lets face it, in PVP, DPS sorcs need a LOT of help (not taking into consideration the broken bubble hybrid) and healing sorcs are still super squishy if they have no guard. (and also not bubble hybrid spec). If bioware continues to look at its metrics, then as a class we are screwed due to people multi-dot padding. If they'd start looking just at how much of that damage is affliction, maybe a lightbulb would go off, but alas... This is Bioware and their development team continually proves to not have a clue about how to balance the classes. (Rob's interview proved that with him saying that all classes are "near balanced" in pvp. It's a joke.)

I agree we need to be made viable but I also think our class needs an overhaul for that to happen.

5% damage increase for sorcs across the board doesn't amount to much given how hard (and I mean weak) our abilities actually hit for right now. (nowhere near any other DPS in the game and easily the lowest). The class does need better defensive abilities other than Bubble which only eats one GCD/attack from any DPS in the game (because that's how weak it is). We are still a light armor class no matter how you look at it with escapes that are easily countered by any 2 second snare and nearly every class has one.

If we are supposed to be playing a Support Role and our DPS is supposed to suffer, then we should have the defensive CD's to provide that Support to our team. (Which will then ruin Sorc DPS even more in the PVE environment, but that's another topic) Right now, bubble hybrid is our only support role because it's broken as all hell and the blind doesn't give as much resolve as it should. When they nerf it (and you know it'll be coming soon), Sorcs will find themselves back to being focus fired and dying much faster then they currently are. OR you will find wz/rwz with very few sorcs in them, just like you did from 1.2 to pre bubble hybrid patch.

It's really not that sorcs are a bad class (I still love playing mine), it's just that they need severe adjustments // boosts to bring them on par with everyone else.

Yeah I agree with Veyl, only reason we're wanted right now is because of a hybrid which will be nerfed. Take that away and people will go back to their scoundrel/op healers. And we won't be wanted for the same reason mercs/commandos won't, our heals are too easily shut down.

We've gone over this before, slight damage buff does nothing, given how squishy we are. I am going to keep pointing to marauders - they got it all, good bursty dps, defensives with group utility.

I'd be happy for 2/3, but compared to them we are more like 0.5/3. Once bubble stun goes, make that 0.25/3 for friendly pull.

Sorry this just looks like qq to me. Yes sorcs/sages (no matter what spec or hybrid) would appreciate more defensive help in PvP in that we need a way to reduce of damage taken. IMO our shields are the best in the game and a well geared sorc wont have it drop so quick to a Shadowstrike, hybrid or not. I do think our new healing we got should be boosted to hit as high our Dark infusions regularly. That i think we can agree would help in general and (not that mny do this) but it be better than running away and usingyour cast heals. Also a slight boost to parasitism (for madness specs) would better survivability with a boosted self heal.

Now if you are complaining of your casttime for Lightning and think it should get decreased let me give you a tissue to your issue. Buy full tionese (and this is for lightning), put all your PvP modes in their and add a regular WH armoring that does give the set bonus to the tionese. In this you can get the bonus that lower your force cost of FL and LS and the crits from Affliction give the 4-set to increase your alacrity making your cast-times faster. If you are a hybrid you can do this or just use the 2-set bonus of both pvp and pve.

All anyone had to do is look and you can solve your problems. We dont need a dmg increase cause all dps specs can still do crazy damage in pvp

All anyone had to do is look and you can solve your problems. We dont need a dmg increase cause all dps specs can still do crazy damage in pvp

You have a pyrotech and a sniper and you can honestly say this with a straight face? From both a PvE and a PVP perspective, both of your other classes that you play out damage // have harder hitting abilities then all of the Sorcs abilities.

This may sound obvious, but you realize that if you cut down the cast times of all these abilities by half, then you will do twice as much DPS as before, right? Perhaps this will make the class capable of doing some burst, but you just moved PVE lightning sorcs from 2000 to 3000 DPS easily.

As for Alacrity, it's probably the most worthless stat in the history of stats. It's so easy to hit DR and then you get nothing for adding more. Surge is far better to stack past DR since you will still gain SOMETHING from it, even if it's only 5-10 extra on crits whereas Alacrity won't decrease any further since you can't get a whole other .1 second off your cast times.

Yes I can say that because my Madness sorc is my main and ive outdpsd both of my other classes before in pvp and pve. Am I saying "im a high and mighty sorc!" No but its not impossible to outdps those other two classes. At the same time Pyrotech is all burst melee now in pvp you have the advantage of range and easily being able to run your abilities while moving (minus casting FL to proc wrath). Moreover, drop affliction to a group and hit them with deathfield your get some crowd control dps and then you can single out targets. Snipers, specifically Lethality ones like I run, are admit much better at their dot trees than Sorcs. They have longer dots and an aoe dot so yes they can sit back and pick ppl off.

Anyways what you are complaining about is Lightning spec which outside casting time there is no problem. Further more Lighting tree is full of abilities that raise your crit chance, lower the casting and cool down of abilities (Lightning Strikw and Chain Lightning), and increase the damage of moves by various percentages! Its the Pyrotech for Sorcs but you're complaining of what im saying? If casting is such a problem go back and do what I said. If you dont have a second Rakata set buy Tionese Force Master, put in pvp mods, and see that you will have quicker casting to get your moves off faster. The PvP ForceMaster only helps Madness and Hybrids anyways.

You want better defenses for your Lightning, fine I agree 100%. But more damage? For what you have an insta-crit TB, CL that can crit, hit up to 5 targets, AND can created a second Arc to blast for my dps. You have an ability that lowers the cast of your Lightning Strikes, another that lowers CL cast and cooldown, and you have increased range on your abilities. Really everything is right there...you just want more for no reason.

So please continue to say that Pyros are better and blah blah blah. Realize its not impossible to beat them and find ways to do it instead of complaining about something you can fix.

This may sound obvious, but you realize that if you cut down the cast times of all these abilities by half, then you will do twice as much DPS as before, right? Perhaps this will make the class capable of doing some burst, but you just moved PVE lightning sorcs from 2000 to 3000 DPS easily.

 

As for Alacrity, it's probably the most worthless stat in the history of stats. It's so easy to hit DR and then you get nothing for adding more. Surge is far better to stack past DR since you will still gain SOMETHING from it, even if it's only 5-10 extra on crits whereas Alacrity won't decrease any further since you can't get a whole other .1 second off your cast times.

You are a burst class to begin with. I know what cutting cast time will do but all im seeing is people who want a new version of Wrath->Chain Lightning. And again Lightning tree has abilities that work with cutting casting, and again you have an issue put PvP mods into PvE gear and you'll have even faster dps because the alacrity boost. Yes its a worthless stat in general but its what deals with cast time. So the increase of your alacrity after an Affliction crit makes for easier casting of moves and more of a Glass Turret onslaught

Yes I can say that because my Madness sorc is my main and ive outdpsd both of my other classes before in pvp and pve. Am I saying "im a high and mighty sorc!" No but its not impossible to outdps those other two classes. At the same time Pyrotech is all burst melee now in pvp you have the advantage of range and easily being able to run your abilities while moving (minus casting FL to proc wrath). Moreover, drop affliction to a group and hit them with deathfield your get some crowd control dps and then you can single out targets. Snipers, specifically Lethality ones like I run, are admit much better at their dot trees than Sorcs. They have longer dots and an aoe dot so yes they can sit back and pick ppl off.

 

Anyways what you are complaining about is Lightning spec which outside casting time there is no problem. Further more Lighting tree is full of abilities that raise your crit chance, lower the casting and cool down of abilities (Lightning Strikw and Chain Lightning), and increase the damage of moves by various percentages! Its the Pyrotech for Sorcs but you're complaining of what im saying? If casting is such a problem go back and do what I said. If you dont have a second Rakata set buy Tionese Force Master, put in pvp mods, and see that you will have quicker casting to get your moves off faster. The PvP ForceMaster only helps Madness and Hybrids anyways.

 

You want better defenses for your Lightning, fine I agree 100%. But more damage? For what you have an insta-crit TB, CL that can crit, hit up to 5 targets, AND can created a second Arc to blast for my dps. You have an ability that lowers the cast of your Lightning Strikes, another that lowers CL cast and cooldown, and you have increased range on your abilities. Really everything is right there...you just want more for no reason.

 

So please continue to say that Pyros are better and blah blah blah. Realize its not impossible to beat them and find ways to do it instead of complaining about something you can fix.

You are absolutely delusional to think Sorcs can out DPS a pyro or a sniper in PVP or PVE. (My point, which you ignored, is that sorcs are completely behind them. You are confusing me with the OP when it comes to Lightning cast on the move.) Also, bringing up Lightning in a PVP setting? I'm a fully min/maxed sorc and my Thundering Blast with it's 1.8 second cast hits a WH'd target with an affliction on it for a wopping 3700. My Marauder, with 1080 expertise annihilate // force scream // Smash // Ravage tick all hit for 4500+ and with the exception of ravage are Instant. My sniper's 1.5 aim shot + followthrough hits for a combined 7k at minimum. My assassins Maul crits for 4500+ again.. 1000 expertise. And lets not forget the execute range abilities that the harder hitting classes have. (I'm sure you've Takedown'd people for 4k at minimum.)

Even with following the TB with a CL proc, you are at most going to hit someone for 6k in a 2 second span, where as two GCDs for any other DPS in this game will hit for much, much harder.

I can top charts on my sorc too but that doesn't mean I can objectively sit back and say that "sorcs are fine". They aren't. They need damage increases because they are behind in PVP and are behind in PVE. The NON PADDED numbers prove it.

You are absolutely delusional to think Sorcs can out DPS a pyro or a sniper in PVP or PVE. (My point, which you ignored, is that sorcs are completely behind them. You are confusing me with the OP when it comes to Lightning cast on the move.) Also, bringing up Lightning in a PVP setting? I'm a fully min/maxed sorc and my Thundering Blast with it's 1.8 second cast hits a WH'd target with an affliction on it for a wopping 3700. My Marauder, with 1080 expertise annihilate // force scream // Smash // Ravage tick all hit for 4500+ and with the exception of ravage are Instant. My sniper's 1.5 aim shot + followthrough hits for a combined 7k at minimum. My assassins Maul crits for 4500+ again.. 1000 expertise. And lets not forget the execute range abilities that the harder hitting classes have. (I'm sure you've Takedown'd people for 4k at minimum.)

 

Even with following the TB with a CL proc, you are at most going to hit someone for 6k in a 2 second span, where as two GCDs for any other DPS in this game will hit for much, much harder.

 

I can top charts on my sorc too but that doesn't mean I can objectively sit back and say that "sorcs are fine". They aren't. They need damage increases because they are behind in PVP and are behind in PVE. The NON PADDED numbers prove it.

im not delusional at all its possible to outdps a Pyro because I have done and I have seen others do it. And I'm not outright saying "sorcs are fine" either because yes we need defenses and such but some of the things being posted (I might've confused you with OP yeah) are like "let's bump our overall dps by 30% and lowers our cast to .5sec." You know what I give I'm not a Lightning Spec like ive said before but cutting your casting in half? you might as well not have a cast at all cause thats what it'll seem like.

If im going to level with you then on both specs (Madness and Lightning) then for Lightning boost "Conduction"damage bonus from 1% to 3% (even 5%) which stacks 3-times, raise "Convections" damage boost from 6% to 10%, and on the madness tree increase either "Calcify" or "Disintergrates" damage or crit chance boost (respectively) from 6% to 10%. This was for Lightning Sorcs you now have 10%+10%+9%(15%)=29%(35%) damage boost which doesnt include "Reverberating Force." For a Madness sorc, increase "Calcify" from 6% to 10% damage boost, "Parasitism" and "DeathField" boost health regen to at least 5%, boost "Creeping Dreams" from 30% to 45% crit damage boost, and either boost the duration or damage boost of "Lingering Nightmare" or "Force Horrors."

What I do give you is that Snipers of any spec are semi-Burst because of their abilities no inclusive to their tree. Series of Shots, Ambush, and Takedown can each hit for massive damage without the target being nailed by the Sniper's tree skills. Still I have been able to outdps Pyros and Snipers before. I'm not saying its every match but its happened and is possible

i wish they change the bubble altogether. in addition to the basic absorb feature now, let the sorc/sage feat three phases of the bubble (sorta like a stance, only one can be active at a time).

In healing tree, let the sage/sorc feat it so when the bubble ends, a % of all the dmg absorbed by the bubble while active heals the entire team that %, regardless of their range from the caster. make the 31 lvl feat increase the % to promote the lvl 31 skill.

In the lightning tree, when bubble ends, reflect a small % of the damage absorbed while bubble was active to all enemies within 10m of caster, and lets the caster disappear for 6 secs (similar to marauders combat hide) End feat augments the %aoe dps..

For madness, feat the bubble as a single-target 'bomb that can be exploded for a large % of single target burst dmg (high in madness) based on how much dmg the bubble absorbed while it was active on a single target within 30m. % would be higher than lightning's as its single target, but larger range. default to closest enemy if no target was selected.

Have 3 different colors for the bubble, one for the abosrb feature, one for the reflect, one for the bomb, so the enemy can prepare somewhat. bubble would be caster-only of course.

This would help the madness sorc feat a burst ability they sorely lack. Would help healer-specs do their job easier and heal through these smash-monkey times we are experiencing. Lightning sorcs would get some good aoe dps reflect dps that is instant (which is what they lack). It would definately make dps classes hesitiant to 'charge' the bubble for a bomb/team-wide heal/reflect aoe dmg.

pipe-dream i know. But i despise the stun and would to see some creativity in replacing the bubble-stun with something useful to the sorc rather than another nerf...

The people saying "oh, this would be unfair", they probably play a knight or warrior, and are afraid of being challenged in PvP. I say this because it seems pknight and warriors are Bioware's favs, and we inquisitors and consulars are treated like crap. So I suggest to make us a little better ability-wise

I think you may need to go back and reread posts a little closer. No one is denying that DPS sorcs lack BURST DPS which is crucial for PVP and need a way to kill things faster. The OP has some good ideas to try and and help in this regard. The issue will be the greater impact of some of these changes in other areas of the game. The difference in DPS between equally geared Sorcs and Maras for instance is in the low hundreds, which makes sense given the melee nature of Maras. Sorc DPS takes a far bigger hit in PVP because they aren't allowed to freecast like they can on a dummy or in PVE.

The changes being recommended would put Sorcs well ahead of every other class in a freecasting environment like a PVE encounter. Think Smash, but in reverse where there is a PVP buff affecting PVE too much. The only way to offer more burst damage is to nerf sustained damage so that the overall DPS is the same, it's just easier to push at the right time for PVP. Although you still have to take things like adrenals and Bloodthirst into account. Those used in PVE in conjunction with increased burst will still give a significant boost to Sorc DPS as well.

Tl;DR The effects of the changes to improve one area may affect the other.

I

Tl;DR The effects of the changes to improve one area may affect the other.

Despite my arguing before.......this.

Sorry this just looks like qq to me. Yes sorcs/sages (no matter what spec or hybrid) would appreciate more defensive help in PvP in that we need a way to reduce of damage taken. IMO our shields are the best in the game and a well geared sorc wont have it drop so quick to a Shadowstrike, hybrid or not. I do think our new healing we got should be boosted to hit as high our Dark infusions regularly. That i think we can agree would help in general and (not that mny do this) but it be better than running away and usingyour cast heals. Also a slight boost to parasitism (for madness specs) would better survivability with a boosted self heal.

Yes, Yes…QQing…that’s the stock answer from the elitist players! Bovine excrement! Name one attack that the Sorcerer possesses that hits for over 5k+ on a single attack? Better yet, name one that hits for over 5k+ overtime! Let me answer it for you, Sorcerers do not possess on attack that rival any AC in the game in causing damage. To make matters worse, for Lightning specced Sorcerers (and Sages mirror tree), we must root ourselves to fire off 2 of our major attacks and unless Alacrity is up, guess what, you will not get them off because some schmuck is going to interrupt your cast. The Shadow/Assassins have immunity from interruption, why not Sorcerers/Sages? They are a melee class; we on the other hand are cast dependent. This should be reversed.

Now if you are complaining of your casttime for Lightning and think it should get decreased let me give you a tissue to your issue. Buy full tionese (and this is for lightning), put all your PvP modes in their and add a regular WH armoring that does give the set bonus to the tionese. In this you can get the bonus that lower your force cost of FL and LS and the crits from Affliction give the 4-set to increase your alacrity making your cast-times faster. If you are a hybrid you can do this or just use the 2-set bonus of both pvp and pve.

 

All anyone had to do is look and you can solve your problems. We dont need a dmg increase cause all dps specs can still do crazy damage in pvp

Ah yes, another answer to the problem. Let’s cheat the system but using PvE modable gear to gain something that wasn’t supplied by the provided gear. No thank you, I’m not going add to the problem by using something that aids in breaking the system further. You want to do that, be my guest. I’ll stick with my 12% alacrity increase provided to me by my stock fully augmented EWH/WH gear thank you very much. BTW, stuff your tissue.

You have a pyrotech and a sniper and you can honestly say this with a straight face? From both a PvE and a PVP perspective, both of your other classes that you play out damage // have harder hitting abilities then all of the Sorcs abilities.

Yes they can. This is what I expect from an “professional elitist PvPer.”

This may sound obvious, but you realize that if you cut down the cast times of all these abilities by half, then you will do twice as much DPS as before, right? Perhaps this will make the class capable of doing some burst, but you just moved PVE lightning sorcs from 2000 to 3000 DPS easily.

Really? How does 1150 to 1250 DPS per tick channeled in 2.8(1.4) seconds, totaling 3200+ to 3600+, increase by 1000 DPS? It cannot happen unless you increase the damage itself with a buff. Those are the numbers I see from my Force Lightning in PvE. In PvP, I’m seeing 950 to 1210 when I’m channeling during that time.

The truth of the matter is decreasing the time spent rooted to cast Force Lightning means less time spent rooted increasing survivability. This is the intent of what I proposed. Never did I suggest, as some of the others contend, that a Sorcerer be given the ability to cast Force Lightning on the move or free cast.

I believe that those advocating no change and claiming this thread is nothing more than QQing did not read what I said, or they read into it what they wanted it to say blinded by their inherent belief that there is nothing wrong with the Sorcerer and any changes will threaten their monopoly on damage by their Snipers/PT/LOLsmashers (insert others as required).

Yes I can say that because my Madness sorc is my main and ive outdpsd both of my other classes before in pvp and pve. Am I saying "im a high and mighty sorc!" No but its not impossible to outdps those other two classes. At the same time Pyrotech is all burst melee now in pvp you have the advantage of range and easily being able to run your abilities while moving (minus casting FL to proc wrath). Moreover, drop affliction to a group and hit them with deathfield your get some crowd control dps and then you can single out targets. Snipers, specifically Lethality ones like I run, are admit much better at their dot trees than Sorcs. They have longer dots and an aoe dot so yes they can sit back and pick ppl off.

Yes, Yes, I can lead the DPS board with 400 to 500k damage too! However, the telling story is in the details of Kills. Being in on 37 kills may seem wonderful until you look at it closely. When you have 4 or 5 killing blows and 0 to 2 solo kills then all that damage means absolutely nothing. It is fluff damage. Anyone can pad their numbers; however, at the end of the day unless that damage actually did something to make a difference, then it means nothing other than gaining comms for damage. If that is what trips your trigger, have at it. I would rather trade 400 to 500k damage for 200 to 300k with 15 killing blows and 5 to 10 solo kills. Then the damage means it did something. This is the intent of my suggestions. Right now what the Sorcerer/Sage brings to the table in PvP is garbage. These two ACs should be feared. Every MMO I’ve played in a casting AC was feared because it caused horrific damage. However, in SW, these two classes in their current form are mediocre at best. Having the highest damage in a WZ means crap if it did not produce results, period.

Anyways what you are complaining about is Lightning spec which outside casting time there is no problem. Further more Lighting tree is full of abilities that raise your crit chance, lower the casting and cool down of abilities (Lightning Strikw and Chain Lightning), and increase the damage of moves by various percentages! Its the Pyrotech for Sorcs but you're complaining of what im saying? If casting is such a problem go back and do what I said. If you dont have a second Rakata set buy Tionese Force Master, put in pvp mods, and see that you will have quicker casting to get your moves off faster. The PvP ForceMaster only helps Madness and Hybrids anyways.

 

Now I know you’re full of it. The Lightning tree and its mirror are nothing but garbage in PvP. I have both ACs at 50 and I speak from experience. Because of this, I was forced, forced to spec hybrid because neither tree allowed me to produce. I spent more time respawning than I did causing damage. I hate running a hybrid character. But I have to in order to offer something to my team mates. I should not have to do this, no one should, but this is what BioWare has done. Matter of fact, this past Friday night, I ran into a Sorcerer fully specced Lightning. Guess what, I shut them down with my hybrid. Even when they hit me with their TB I barely felt the damage. Because I’m spec’d with a 6 second lockdown in my interrupt, they were forced to flee or screamed for help because I would not allow them to get off their single big attack. This encounter inspired me to write pen this thread.

 

Again, your answer is to using items not meant for PvP thus creating an artificial increase where it skews the balance created by the developers. There are three answers to this problem, 1.) Stop playing the sorcerer/sage all together or 2.) Get rid of the classes’ DPS trees completely. 3.) Fix the dman problem created by those who rather stare at their matrix and say, “it’s working as intended.” I’ve retired my Marauder from PvP after 1.4 because of the change to resolve, I’ll retire my Sorcerer from PvP too if they do not do the right thing and make this and the Sage ACs what they should truly be; glass cannons.

 

You want better defenses for your Lightning, fine I agree 100%. But more damage? For what you have an insta-crit TB, CL that can crit, hit up to 5 targets, AND can created a second Arc to blast for my dps. You have an ability that lowers the cast of your Lightning Strikes, another that lowers CL cast and cooldown, and you have increased range on your abilities. Really everything is right there...you just want more for no reason.

 

My encounter with against a Lightning Spec’d Sorcerer says otherwise. This player wasn’t a bad either. They were part of a known PvP guild of repute and skill. All those procs or extras mean squat with you cannot get them off or they don’t do enough damage to matter. That’s the problem with the Sorcerer/Sage; their damage does not reach over 4k in a burst or over time unless you cheat the system by ignoring one stat for another or using some artificial means to increase damage. In other words, you cheat the system.

 

So please continue to say that Pyros are better and blah blah blah. Realize its not impossible to beat them and find ways to do it instead of complaining about something you can fix.

 

You must really play against under skilled Pyros to make such an assertion. I’ll just leave it at that.

 

You are absolutely delusional to think Sorcs can out DPS a pyro or a sniper in PVP or PVE. (My point, which you ignored, is that sorcs are completely behind them. You are confusing me with the OP when it comes to Lightning cast on the move.) Also, bringing up Lightning in a PVP setting? I'm a fully min/maxed sorc and my Thundering Blast with it's 1.8 second cast hits a WH'd target with an affliction on it for a wopping 3700. My Marauder, with 1080 expertise annihilate // force scream // Smash // Ravage tick all hit for 4500+ and with the exception of ravage are Instant. My sniper's 1.5 aim shot + followthrough hits for a combined 7k at minimum. My assassins Maul crits for 4500+ again.. 1000 expertise. And lets not forget the execute range abilities that the harder hitting classes have. (I'm sure you've Takedown'd people for 4k at minimum.)

 

Even with following the TB with a CL proc, you are at most going to hit someone for 6k in a 2 second span, where as two GCDs for any other DPS in this game will hit for much, much harder.

 

I can top charts on my sorc too but that doesn't mean I can objectively sit back and say that "sorcs are fine". They aren't. They need damage increases because they are behind in PVP and are behind in PVE. The NON PADDED numbers prove it.

 

Let me correct you on one point. I never said, casting Lightning on the move. And to prove that, here is what I said:

 

“Reduce the case time for Lightning Strike, Chain Lightning, Force Lightning, and Crushing Darkness by half. This will mean a Sorcerer will require only 1.4 seconds to fire off Force Lightning without the Lightning Barrage proc. When that proc is up, it will reduce that even further per the proc's affect. What this means is we do not have to become a turret to use Force Lightning. Conversely, the existing procs for Chain Lightning, Lightning Strike, or Crushing Darkness require no changes either. The same would apply to the Sage’s abilities too. What this means is a Sorcerer/Sage will spend less time standing still to use their abilities because of the improved mobility.”

 

I don’t know where you and others are getting, “casting on the run from,” but it is not stated in what I said as I never said it. I wish you all would read what I say for what is written without including some hidden meaning or take it out of context. I don’t beat around the bush. I say what I mean and mean what I say.

 

As for the rest of your post, I agree with it. Sosajoshua and the rest are the typical playrtd who want to keep the status quo so they are not threatened using their Snipers/PT/Smashers as the dominate ACs in damage vs. kills.

 

And to prove my point this:

 

I

Tl;DR The effects of the changes to improve one area may affect the other.

Despite my arguing before.......this.

Really? How does 1150 to 1250 DPS per tick channeled in 2.8(1.4) seconds, totaling 3200+ to 3600+, increase by 1000 DPS?

This shouldn't need to be spelled out, but if you do the same amount of damage in half the time, you are doing twice as much DAMAGE PER SECOND. Thus why I said it will double DPS for these abilities. Force Lightning with Lightning Barrage is already the highest DPS ability in a Lightning Sorc's arsenal. If you reduce the cast time of 4 abilities in half, you obviously won't completely double overall DPS, but you will significantly boost the number above acceptable levels comparatively to other classes in PVE. Thus why I said it would increase overall DPS by 1000 or so. You are also going to allow for more lightning strikes by reducing the cast time and increase the chance to proc insta-CL indirectly since you can fire off more LS's.

These changes may help for PVP to increase burst and avoid being interrupted as much, but as I said in a few posts, will totally break the class for PVE.

As a side note, I main a Sorc, so don't try and play the "you just wanna keep Sorcs down in PVP" card please.

Lmfao ghost you might as well just calle me out by myself. I never said i was an elite pvper so ummmm okay. My point about using PvE gear is because yes in PvP when will a Lightning ever be able to cast. My "gear" comment is similar to when i tell PTs who complain about the loss of range to just roll PyroMercs if they want it that much. What i have tried to say this whole time, and never articulated it for instantly wanting to counter other peoples arguments, is that a massive damage boost isnt needed. A general change of trees to increase damage percentages would do just as fine. Would i say my examples were perfect!? 6%-10(15%) in no way would this make a whole difference. But a boost from 6%-45% like it seems some people want is a bit much.

Id be the first to agree Sorcerers need more damamge but in ways that benefit their specs not just "lets dump a crap load of damage onto these time and watch then fly in all aspects of the game!" Lower cast times to a reasonable rate or change skill tree abilities that pertain to that problem. Increase duration of dots or change abilities in tree that work on that. You can call me out all i want for having used other classes and not being all gungho onmy Sorc from launch to now, im sorry you have no expanded your horizons. Im not saying "leave my sorc i like my Sniper/PT better" but make reasonable changes to things.

And again...im not saying im the top dpsing Sorc on my server, far from im positive. Whoever to say that at least a few times a Sorc cant outdps a PT is wrong. Is it difficult? Yes. Can it be done though? Yes just dont expect in every pull pr every pvp match to destroy a PTs dps. If it happens, fantastic. If not, this is expected. And yes I do have to agree that one change leads to another cause you cant have an increase without a decrease somewhere, somehow. Whose to say BW may increase the damage of Death Field but then give it a 1.8sec cast (just example)?

The only one sounding like or even trying to sound like an "elite pvper" is you. But im glad to see ive push your buttons that you attempt to tell me what to do. Ha and you shelved your Mara...i may applaud you for that. I have neither Mara nor Sent @50 but you actually shelved yours. That i actually cant believe only because its a mara not cause anything against you.

This shouldn't need to be spelled out, but if you do the same amount of damage in half the time, you are doing twice as much DAMAGE PER SECOND. Thus why I said it will double DPS for these abilities. Force Lightning with Lightning Barrage is already the highest DPS ability in a Lightning Sorc's arsenal. If you reduce the cast time of 4 abilities in half, you obviously won't completely double overall DPS, but you will significantly boost the number above acceptable levels comparatively to other classes in PVE. Thus why I said it would increase overall DPS by 1000 or so. You are also going to allow for more lightning strikes by reducing the cast time and increase the chance to proc insta-CL indirectly since you can fire off more LS's.

You only increase the amount of damage when the time is reduced in half, but NOT the total amount. This imaginary 1000 points you say will come from nowhere has nothing to do with the total amount delivered. If that were the case, Lightning Barrage would increase the total amount of damage. It does not, it reduces the time to channel Force Lightning, NOT the overall damage. If you do an average of 3200 DPS in a 2.8 sec cast with Force Lightning, you will do the same amount in 1.4 secs. I do not do more damage with Lightning Strike when it procs up for instant cast with Wrath proc nor do I increase my total damage with Chain Lightning when it procs up for an instant strike. I still do the total amount of damage allowed. So your theory is dead wrong. Decreasing the time to cast only increases the amount of damage but not the total amount, period. What decreasing the cast time ultimately does is increase the Sorcerer/Sage's survival. This is the underlying goal of my original post.

This will not have any adverse effect in PvE since the same rules that apply in PvE apply in PvP concerning damage. In PvE I do more damage because the mobs do not have the damage mitigation we have in PvP, only Elites, Bosses, Champions, and World Bosses have it.

As for the card you said I played, your posts on this subject speak for themselves. If that is not the case, then you really need to be abundantly clear in what you say and how you say it.

i just want to point something out if a sorc applies dots to every single player in the wz at the end of the match it will appear as tho they did x, but all that is meaningless dmg, worthless, useless dmg other than the score board at the end of the game. you cant kill anyone that way other ppl kill that person and cause of the way the system works you get credit as well. me vs you or whoever dps race, lightning sorc especially cant not out dps anyone.

we do not have the pleasure of our stun doing dmg (force choke), our root cuting through you (ravage), or our knock back ripping a hole through you (ambush) we do not have the pleasure of control and dmg built in to a skill. understand that the avg cast time is 1.5 secs and the globe cool down is 1.5 secs so thats 3 secs each ability. while it make other classes 9 secs to setup there best rotation it takes us 20 secs. and are dmg per ability is less than other classes and btw we cant move. math dont add up

You only increase the amount of damage when the time is reduced in half, but NOT the total amount. This imaginary 1000 points you say will come from nowhere has nothing to do with the total amount delivered. If that were the case, Lightning Barrage would increase the total amount of damage. It does not, it reduces the time to channel Force Lightning, NOT the overall damage. If you do an average of 3200 DPS in a 2.8 sec cast with Force Lightning, you will do the same amount in 1.4 secs. I do not do more damage with Lightning Strike when it procs up for instant cast with Wrath proc nor do I increase my total damage with Chain Lightning when it procs up for an instant strike. I still do the total amount of damage allowed. So your theory is dead wrong. Decreasing the time to cast only increases the amount of damage but not the total amount, period. What decreasing the cast time ultimately does is increase the Sorcerer/Sage's survival. This is the underlying goal of my original post.

 

This will not have any adverse effect in PvE since the same rules that apply in PvE apply in PvP concerning damage. In PvE I do more damage because the mobs do not have the damage mitigation we have in PvP, only Elites, Bosses, Champions, and World Bosses have it.

 

As for the card you said I played, your posts on this subject speak for themselves. If that is not the case, then you really need to be abundantly clear in what you say and how you say it.

Are you for seriousing me? Lightning Barrage is amazing BECAUSE it doubles your DPS. If I do 5k damage over 2 seconds normally and Lightning Barrage lowers that to 1 second, my DPS just went from 2.5k to 5k with Lightning Barrage or DOUBLE the damage the ability would normal do per second (DPS). (numbers used are made up to have round numbers)

Lightning Strike will be the same, but you get the added benefit of getting more CL procs. The percentage is still 30% to proc per LS, but now you can cast twice as many LS's in the same timeframe. Which, of course, will be a DPS increase overall on both LS (doing the same damage in half the time) and CL (casting more LS's means more insta procs). Not to mention, you can cast LS more often because you saved half the cast time on Crushing Darkness as well.

It WILL have an adverse effect on PVE because your reasoning makes no sense. Boss defenses are not going to change, but damage dealt by players will increase significantly. Without the necessity to constantly be moving and the likely possibility of being focused and interrupted, Sorcs are always freecasting. That is why they are far more effective in PVE than they are in PVP. If you don't know that, then I honestly shouldn't even be having this conversation with you. So if you straight decrease cast time, Sorcs will be using more abilities at the same strength in the same time frame and therefore do more damage. I'm not really sure why you aren't understanding this.

Ex. Opening PVE Rotation:

Affliction>Thundering Blast>Crushing Darkness>FL (with LB proc)>LS>LS>CL(Proc)

According to the first paragraph of your post, 4 of those abilities would be affected (CD, FL, LS twice) which reduces that rotation by roughly 3 and a half seconds. Only the GCD on affliction and CL and then the cast time on TB would stay the same (which is why I said DPS wouldn't double overall, but significantly increase). My point being that I did the same rotation, with the same damage, in 3 and a half less seconds.

The only way what you are saying makes sense is if you cut down the damage of each ability by half since you can cast it in half the time, which is obviously counterproductive to the overall point of the thread.