OP /signed

I agree. Our guild is still gathering people to do 16 mans because it's harder in terms of content. We want a challenge and we think 16 mans will provide us with that. So yeah, I hope it stays that way.

Signed. 16man is there for the challange. 8man should be a easier version of that same 16-man content, with less reward (either significantly less drops or a lower teir of loot all together).

 

Period.

 

If 16mans become easier then 8, BY DESIGN, you're going to overnight loose about 60% of your "top" PVE players. Noone wants to play an EZMode game - if we wanted that, we'd play WOW. We want new, fresh, challenging. Bioware said yourself you want to feel HEROIC in all the content you do. Let me tell you -- EZmode raiding does not feel heroic. It does not feel difficult or that you've "overcome the odds" like the Jedi and Sith do.

 

The only reason I've heard that 16man "should be easier" is because "there's always those 2-3 people you want to ring their throat" -- This is a Guild Leader / Guild Recruitment Problem. this is not the game developers responsibly to make the game easier to cater to people who play badly. As a raid leader, Its my responsibly to pick my 16 people. If 3 of them suck, then you don't bring them again.

 

With that in mind, Your raids in their current standing are completely capable of being cleared with 3-4 "not-AAA-players" in raid. Trust me, My guild has done it.

Edited February 21, 2012 by grufftech

/signed

Signed.

 

There really is no element to this game that feels "hardcore" at the moment. The focus should be on making the 16 man content less buggy (read: Soa), not less challenging. Give us some accomplishments to be proud of. If I just wanted to farm stuff every week, I'd go play Farmville or something.

Signed...

 

Making 16-mans easier and keeping the rewards the same kills 16s. Their only saving grace now is prestige. Short of fixing some of the bugs, make sure 16s stay harder and give better rewards for doing it. Encourage people to work for their loot, don't cater to the easy mentality!

/signed

 

Yes its harder to get 16 GOOD people than it is 8... so reward the guilds that choose to do 16 mans by making them harder and giving better loot. End game content is too easy as it is anyways. After completing all content on nightmare in 16 man, i wish that there was another harder mode to select. Most of the fights were cleared way to easily imo.

as a casual player i still sign off on this one.

 

Let us have something to strive for. Wow´s downfall was that they dumbed down the game and at the end (its current state) was soo dumbed down that anyone could jump in and get end game epics in less then 2 weeks.

 

Even us casual players WANT content that is TO HARD for us to clear, so we have something to strive for, something to drewl after (like a big phat lightsaber-drop that will make my crits even fatter )

 

It makes ppl come back each week to try and progress and down that boss. It also makes players bond faster and harder - And that is one of the major factors that made wow so addictive.

 

That will generate money for you Bioware and it will make US enjoy the game more!

 

Bioware - the majority of your playerbase is seasioned mmorpg-players. We do have the expertise to tell you what will work and what we want. And I am confident that you will listen to us since you have shown that particular quality already so far.

Signed.

Coming from some one who has only done 8 person ops and will probably never get a chance to do 16 person ops, I completely agree. In my mind 16 person ops should be marginally harder (even including the extra 8 people to coordinate) and drop marginally better loot (like a tier x.5 sort of thing).

 

Ideally this would encourage more people to run 16 person operations (not everyone raids just for the fun of it!) while still keeping a decent population of people who do 8 person ops.

 

but while its harder because of extra mechanics and co-ordinating 16 people and is dropping the same loot then its an issue, as they dont want to increase the loot, then surely the other option is, make it easier.

I find I must elaborate further =)

 

My top 3 memories from 7 years of playing mmorpgs (wow until swtor came and saved my addiction, and presented me a "pusher" that had good sh*t since my last one had started to cut its stuff a little to much for me =)

 

1. When my guild downed "Vaelastrasz" the first time. After four hours of trying we got him at the "ok guys one last attempt before we call it". The roar of triumph on TS was deafening.... And this was when 40-man-raids was standard. Which made it that much harder and due to that - That much more epic when we pulled it off.

 

2. When we downed Lich King. We worked hard as hell and when we finally pulled it off we felt so IMBA =)

 

3. When I got "Manslayer of the Qiraj" I was sooooo drooling after that sword, and I got wood when it droped hahaha

 

As I said before, I would count as a casual player so these moments for me would probably count as downing of Kel'Thuzad in Vanilla for u hardcore guys.

 

TLDR? = It is a lot more fun and rewarding to achieve something u've been fighting hard for, even for a causal guy like me. My roof of whats "achievable drool objects or realistic raid-progress is just lower than the hardcore guys. It doesnt mean its less epic for me.

 

To make a comparison - A guy that benchpress 100 kg´s for the first time and brakes his personal record is going to feel just as pleased with himself as I am doing 170 kg´s (My other hobby besides mmorpgs is strengthtraining, no brag intended, it comes natural as a comparison fo me, but anyway I think u understand my point?)

 

edit:spelling

Edited February 21, 2012 by Dirtysolutions

/signed

You shouldn't be crying about 16 made easier than 8, you should be crying about how easy Hard and Nightmare are.

 

I'm glad 16m is being made Viable to those who don't want to beat their heads on the keyboard. I have full cleared Hard on 8m and 4/5 NMM EV. NMM 8m is actually easier than 16m norm.

 

The issue isn't size vs. difficulty. It's hard/nmm being too easy.

 

Pick your battles, this isn't one of them.

/signed

 

When a raid group decides to do larger size group raids (like 16 man ops), what the group is looking for is a bigger challenge, not something easier.

 

Why else would we bother with all the work involved in getting 16 people together? If we'd like it easy we would go 8 man and be done with that.

 

So please make 16 mans more challenging and increase the challenge of hard, and nightmare modes.

 

Thanks

You shouldn't be crying about 16 made easier than 8, you should be crying about how easy Hard and Nightmare are.

 

I'm glad 16m is being made Viable to those who don't want to beat their heads on the keyboard. I have full cleared Hard on 8m and 4/5 NMM EV. NMM 8m is actually easier than 16m norm.

 

The issue isn't size vs. difficulty. It's hard/nmm being too easy.

 

Pick your battles, this isn't one of them.

 

Yes Hard Mode and Nightmare being too easy is a real issue. That does not mean that this topic is not, nor that it is insignificant.

Signed! Especially 16-man Golden fury.. that fight was too easy even for "NiM" / HM..

Now.. 16-man HM Firebrand and Stormcaller when it first came out.. that was a challenge!

Edited April 24, 2013 by paowee

/signed

 

My signature is more so, "Please make content harder- so derps can be seen a lot easier, giving us the ability to weed out those we are carrying while also having content that provides an actual challenge and isn't cleared within 2.5 hours the 2nd time seeing it."

 

My background experience started back in Vanilla with World 3rd Naxx40 clear. After many years of hardcore raiding with some casual inbetweens, I can easily say that SWTOR's content is extremely lacking. Now, that doesn't mean that the content itself is bad- because the fights are quite enjoyable- but from a hardcore standpoint the fights are overly simplistic and provide no real challenge other than logging on and doing it.

 

Actually, I'd say the only challenge this game has to offer is the fact that tier pieces aren't itemized properly and give us stats we don't want- so we have to take extra effort to grab new mods/enhancements to make up for random alacrity on DPS gear.

I'm going to have to disagree with OP. Getting 16 people together at one time is a pain in the arse.

I'm all for nightmare modes being harder, make them unforgiving stompfests littered with the broken corpses of the players.

 

But story and hard modes no,

way to necrothread:P I agree though 16m should be more difficult but I also think it should reward better loot. That is the one thing that is missing from this game that really makes 16m worth running. They need to give better drops in 16m HM and Nightmare modes. I dont know if they want to make an entire nightmare gear tier of 16m gear but I think it would be kind of cool to do. Or maybe even just give better offset drops or mounts/pets etc something extra.

Coming from a 16 man guild, I do agree. We have only done 16 man content since HM EC was the only op. With this Tier of content in 2.0, we cleared all of the HM within the first week as 16 (This includes, HM SV, HM TFB and that Golden Furry thing).

 

However, the argument for getting 16 people together is part of the challenge, yada yada yada is valid................for SM and maybe HM. When it comes to NiM, no casual guild should even cast a glance in that direction. NiM is the difficulty that should set 8 man and 16 man apart from each other. We in Severity Gaming are hoping that NiM TFB will make what we went through progressing through NiM EC child's play.

 

In any event, at the end of the day it is all about what the majority want in this game. They have to please the masses in order to make the money.

/sign

 

vote for real hard and nightmare modes on both 8 and 16 man. Hard mode feels like normal mode and nightmare like hard mode. Anyway swtor is my favorite mmo we just need that little adjustment for an even more epic experience.

snip

 

 

Edited April 24, 2013 by paowee

/signed

 

I never look back on WoW and remember how much fun I had blowing through Karahzhan. I do however, distinctly remember the accomplishment and joy when we cleared Mount Hyjal for the 1st time after getting wrecked for weeks.

 

My first toon to ding 50 in SWTOR cleared TFB that same night in an hour. Was I happy that I just got a bunch of purples for little effort? No, I was bummed out that the endgame was so trivial you can jump in with your welcome to 50 gear and just blast through HM bosses like they're nothing.

 

TBH I haven't even bothered Raiding again since that night, just play around on alts. Until I hear something challenging I may raid in this game again, but for now what's the point. I raid for the challenge not for the purples.