http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=548897

QUOTE=AllisonBerryman;5350215]Hi everyone! I talked to Austin Peckenpaugh (Senior Designer) about Commandos and Mercenaries and their situation in PvP right now, and he had this to say:

I think it's fair to say that Mercenaries and Commandos have escape issues. Admittedly, they can be very hard to catch when used correctly to hug corners, but a lot of that "escapability" falls aside when attacked by multiple melee enemies, at which point they just aren't quite tough enough to sustain without further escapes. We have plans for the future that should give Mercenaries and Commandos better escapes in PvP.

I don't know if any of you follow the pvp threads, but I strongly urge you to go voice your thoughts on this issue. Clearly the devs just want us to be targets for other DPS classes with no means of being able to fight back or doing the same DPS as the other classes currently. Please don't post responses here. This is to urge to post in the other thread.

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=548897

 

Hi everyone! I talked to Austin Peckenpaugh (Senior Designer) about Commandos and Mercenaries and their situation in PvP right now, and he had this to say:

 

I think it's fair to say that Mercenaries and Commandos have escape issues. Admittedly, they can be very hard to catch when used correctly to hug corners, but a lot of that "escapability" falls aside when attacked by multiple melee enemies, at which point they just aren't quite tough enough to sustain without further escapes. We have plans for the future that should give Mercenaries and Commandos better escapes in PvP.

 

I don't know if any of you follow the pvp threads, but I strongly urge you to go voice your thoughts on this issue. Clearly the devs just want us to be targets for other DPS classes with no means of being able to fight back or doing the same DPS as the other classes currently. Please don't post responses here. This is to urge to post in the other thread.

Wow.

How do you go from reading:

"yes, they have problems right now and we have plans to fix it"

to understanding:

"Clearly the devs just want us to be targets for other DPS classes with no means of being able to fight back or doing the same DPS as the other classes currently."?

It boggles the mind.

Wow.

 

How do you go from reading:

"yes, they have problems right now and we have plans to fix it"

to understanding:

"Clearly the devs just want us to be targets for other DPS classes with no means of being able to fight back or doing the same DPS as the other classes currently."?

 

It boggles the mind.

The only thing here that boggles the mind is your response. Austin's response was ridicules. Mercenaries and Commandos and dead meat in PVP. They don't have minor escape issues they are broken. They are "hard to catch when used correctly to hug corners",... what a freaking joke.

Hey Austin meet me in a WZ some time and watch me kill any Merc and / or Commando one on one, every time.

You both need to get a clue.

Dear developper,

Buff paper, nerf scissors. Rock is fine.

Paper

Dear developper,

 

Buff paper, nerf scissors. Rock is fine.

 

Paper

Stupid post

The only thing here that boggles the mind is your response. Austin's response was ridicules. Mercenaries and Commandos and dead meat in PVP. They don't have minor escape issues they are broken. They are "hard to catch when used correctly to hug corners",... what a freaking joke.

 

Hey Austin meet me in a WZ some time and watch me kill any Merc and / or Commando one on one, every time.

 

You both need to get a clue.

I never said we were fine.

I was commenting on Individual's understanding of what was said. If he had simply said:

I don't know if any of you follow the pvp threads, but I strongly urge you to go voice your thoughts on this issue. Please don't post responses here. This is to urge to post in the other thread.

that would have been fine. I agree that we should go add constructive comments to the original thread.

Individual's comment was anything but that.

Stupid post

I don't deny it.

But I look around the PvP forum and this, and the "request" of mercs/commando to "fix" this current situation are plain ridiculous.

-Shields

-tons of roots

-insta-cast on a crapload of abilities (which btw, would mess up dps bad)

-total immunity to interrupt with 5 stack of power barrier (which means total immunity point)

-Add a sprint with that will you? thx!

you can have different way to deal with melee. I'll admit I think the modification to rocket punch/shockstrike was very dumb. Unload to be uninterruptible? Definitely, linked to a barrage proc, I have no issue with that.

But being ABLE to kite, doesnt mean having an EASY TIME kiting. I got played by the corner very well today, in the underground under civil war's mid objectives. He (or she) did it WELL. By the time I got to him, I was under 50% health, and he still had a few abilities ready for me.

But mostly, since the issue seems fighting melee (Mostly I suppose, marauder and assassins) very little tweaks might be very efficients. If you get surprised and the melee ran to you (therefore still has leap availaible), it SHOULD be a bad start for you. Kiting should not be an easy 1-hit button, and your best kb should be kept for a moment they won't be countered right away by the melee class.

Ex. use jet boost after assassin blows force speed, or a marauder/jug blows leap.

A commando got me very well there today. He saw me coming, as soon as I leaped at him, he used his concussion charge. I REALLY had to either walk there, not even sure force charge's damage landed.

Hence my comment. Its rather desespearing that Bioware even listen to most of the stuff there. People ask themselves "what would make my class awesome" and not "what would make my class balanced"

A commando got me very well there today. He saw me coming, as soon as I leaped at him, he used his concussion charge. I REALLY had to either walk there, not even sure force charge's damage landed.

Hey guy listen, this one time I had to struggle to kill a Commando, it was awful, I had to actually WALK there... if that's not irrefutable proof that Commando's are fine or maybe even overpowered, I don't know what is.

Sure, I later killed him 5 times so quickly that I almost forgot about it and it's possible that I had to struggle that one time because I'm just not that good, but still, nerf pls.

I don't deny it.

 

But I look around the PvP forum and this, and the "request" of mercs/commando to "fix" this current situation are plain ridiculous.

 

-Shields

-tons of roots

-insta-cast on a crapload of abilities (which btw, would mess up dps bad)

-total immunity to interrupt with 5 stack of power barrier (which means total immunity point)

-Add a sprint with that will you? thx!

 

 

you can have different way to deal with melee. I'll admit I think the modification to rocket punch/shockstrike was very dumb. Unload to be uninterruptible? Definitely, linked to a barrage proc, I have no issue with that.

 

But being ABLE to kite, doesnt mean having an EASY TIME kiting. I got played by the corner very well today, in the underground under civil war's mid objectives. He (or she) did it WELL. By the time I got to him, I was under 50% health, and he still had a few abilities ready for me.

 

But mostly, since the issue seems fighting melee (Mostly I suppose, marauder and assassins) very little tweaks might be very efficients. If you get surprised and the melee ran to you (therefore still has leap availaible), it SHOULD be a bad start for you. Kiting should not be an easy 1-hit button, and your best kb should be kept for a moment they won't be countered right away by the melee class.

 

Ex. use jet boost after assassin blows force speed, or a marauder/jug blows leap.

 

A commando got me very well there today. He saw me coming, as soon as I leaped at him, he used his concussion charge. I REALLY had to either walk there, not even sure force charge's damage landed.

 

Hence my comment. Its rather desespearing that Bioware even listen to most of the stuff there. People ask themselves "what would make my class awesome" and not "what would make my class balanced"

Shields?

Tons of Roots?

-total immunity to interrupt with 5 stack of power barrier (which means total immunity point) Oh snap, You don't mean total immunity like those pesky Snipers do ya? Oh holy huttballs please no.

I imagine it must be a living hell for you to approach a ranged squishy class only to realize upon reaching that golden 4meter range that your interrupt is completely useless. I can imagine that being so devastating for you having to trade blows with someone rather than just pound on them relentlessly while they try to "kite"

I can imagine these things because I've got a 50 Sniper, Marauder, Sorcerer, Mercenary and soon to be Operative.

Oh you poor little Jawa snatch you. You got cornered in the civil war map in the underground? they hit u with a Concussion Charge? Blasted little zugzugs. You must have been snared for at least 4 seconds whatever did you do?

Ex. use jet boost after assassin blows force speed, or a marauder/jug blows leap. CLUCK YEAH! that's EXACTLY what we was missing man thank you holy huttballs again thank u thank u thank u!

this whole time I thought our class was imbalanced and we never stood a chance but this whole time we're just missing COMMON SENSE? THANK YOU!

Wow.

 

How do you go from reading:

"yes, they have problems right now and we have plans to fix it"

to understanding:

"Clearly the devs just want us to be targets for other DPS classes with no means of being able to fight back or doing the same DPS as the other classes currently."?

 

It boggles the mind.

The person you were responding to may have been a bit reactionary. However, consider the dev's track record. 11 straight months of nerfs. The supposed "buffs" are cloaked in bugs that reduce Merc dps effectiveness so that in net, we still get nerfed. A dev request in July for player input about their subclass, with tons of responses by Merc about their problems. Result? Next patch has a further nerf to Merc Pyro.

The Merc player base is justifiably suspicious about dev intentions regarding the subclass. Every strong pvp player in the game will admit that Merc is the worst subclass in the game for pvp. And the devs continue to nerf the subclass. The devs simply lack any credibility on the matter.

Hey guy listen, this one time I had to struggle to kill a Commando, it was awful, I had to actually WALK there... if that's not irrefutable proof that Commando's are fine or maybe even overpowered, I don't know what is.

 

Sure, I later killed him 5 times so quickly that I almost forgot about it and it's possible that I had to struggle that one time because I'm just not that good, but still, nerf pls.

Nice way to prove you read what you wanted to read to keep feeling like a poor little victim. Mainly, I agreed merc/commando need some loving, but that the request I saw from players are ridiculous and simply being "We have a bit of issues right now, so compensate us by making us FOTM!!!"

Shields?

Tons of Roots?

-total immunity to interrupt with 5 stack of power barrier (which means total immunity point) Oh snap, You don't mean total immunity like those pesky Snipers do ya? Oh holy huttballs please no.

 

Actually sniper pay for that total immunity to interrupt by a big lack of mobility, something the current suggestion would actually make a merc a mobile weapon platform you can't do crap about. Do see how I suggested a few way to still grant that, without making it overpowered. Altough I feel like I'm arguing with a wall here, still has to be said. Sniper attacks being mostly ranged, they also are a lot more vulnerable to defense boost effects, accuracy reduction, and are in deep s**** if another sniper throws that little smoke grenade at them.

 

I imagine it must be a living hell for you to approach a ranged squishy class only to realize upon reaching that golden 4meter range that your interrupt is completely useless. I can imagine that being so devastating for you having to trade blows with someone rather than just pound on them relentlessly while they try to "kite"

I can imagine these things because I've got a 50 Sniper, Marauder, Sorcerer, Mercenary and soon to be Operative.

 

Oh you poor little Jawa snatch you. You got cornered in the civil war map in the underground? they hit u with a Concussion Charge? Blasted little zugzugs. You must have been snared for at least 4 seconds whatever did you do?

 

Your "squishy" class still have heavy armor. Just sayin'. As said, to the previous quote answer, you've completely missed the point that simply "total immunity to interrupt linked to 5 power barrier" is dumb, not the fact that an option should be there. Unload should not be interruptible if you got a barrage proc, no argument there. A bit like the sorc or the bodyguard tree's an uninterruptible + an additionnal 25% pushback resistance (making it effectively immune to pushback if also talented in stabilizer) for the arsenal tree would imo not be overkill. I already stated I don't understand the logic behind the replacement of the KB on Rocket punch to a root, since it IS a window that should be used to shoot a tracer.

 

Ex. use jet boost after assassin blows force speed, or a marauder/jug blows leap. CLUCK YEAH! that's EXACTLY what we was missing man thank you holy huttballs again thank u thank u thank u!

 

this whole time I thought our class was imbalanced and we never stood a chance but this whole time we're just missing COMMON SENSE? THANK YOU!

 

Again, I'm not arguing you guy need some loving, but if you give it too much, its going to need a dps nerf, and PvE will be screwed again. You have to get tool to help you keep melee off you, not make it impossible for them to attack you. You cannot get a snare/kb every 8 second, for exemple. NO class has that. Even your "godly" sniper has ambush on a 12 sec cd, and it doesnt snare.

 

There is a way to make valid points here, but THAT thread the OP linked is a joke. No balance will be acheived with that, since its pretty much, as I sarcastically pointed out, paper wanting scissors nerfed, rock left as it is, and paper buffed (I'm sure none of you have any concerns with sorcs for exemple). Come up with DECENT suggestions, and maybe, just maybe devs will take them seriously. Ex: effect on jet boost could very well be like the snipers, a 5 sec root, with 2 sec grace period to get an hit in.

 

Answer in red.

Wow.

 

How do you go from reading:

"yes, they have problems right now and we have plans to fix it"

to understanding:

"Clearly the devs just want us to be targets for other DPS classes with no means of being able to fight back or doing the same DPS as the other classes currently."?

 

It boggles the mind.

How do you not understand? They are saying our issue is only being able to excape. If we had the same DPS as these other classes, we wouldn't even have to worry about escaping. We should be able to 1 v 1 other classes, not be walking targets. How helpful is it for us to have escape abilities to our team when the rest of them are getting beat on. Our main problem is our DPS in warzones, not survivability. Us being as bursty as some of these other classes would help both the individual and the team. Is the issue our survivability or the DPS? Mercs and Commandos are always at the low end of the DPS tree now in terms of pvp. I won't comment on PVE because I stopped using my merc for PVE once I got a PT and Murader which do more DPS in PVE.

Valid point Verfallin

Except for "Actually sniper pay for that total immunity to interrupt by a big lack of mobility, something the current suggestion would actually make a merc a mobile weapon platform you can't do crap about."

If changes were made to Power Barrier so that it would provide immunity to interrupts for the duration (15 seconds) then you would need to cast Power Shot or Tracer Missile 3 times to achieve this. During that brief period of time where a Mercenary is vulnerable to interrupts a melee or even a ranged class could interrupt Power Shot or Tracer Missile preventing the stacking of Power Barrier.

A sniper on the other hand needs to enter cover and immunity to interrupts and pushback is granted.

I suppose your argument is that "well gosh darn it, Snipers don't have all the defensive cooldowns that a Merc has or Heavy flippin Armor or TRACER MISSILES"

I guess you're hoping I'll spare you the list of resources a Sniper has at his disposal and I'm going to do just that. Because ya see I don't think you're a moron so I'll try and not treat you like one. Your argument is that you simply want minor changes to the Mercenary/Commando to put them on even ground with the rest of the AC's in this game instead of a huge buff that makes them "FOTM" and I agree with you on that.

This class needs something. I think being immune to interrupts would help us in a big way I just think we should be careful how we go about giving that immunity to Mercenary's. Power Barrier is a legit way of doing it because until you reach 5 stacks of Power Barrier (three global cooldowns) then you're still just the same old Mercenary you were before the Power Barrier buff. Seems fair to me.

People would have to adapt and focus that Mercenary before he becomes immune or simply LoS when he is immune until that 15 seconds of immunity wears off. (btw ... if they change Power Barrier they most certainly could reduce its duration from 15 seconds to 10 or something)

It is not unbelievable omg FOTM time rofl/facespam bambam GOBAMA 4 MORE YEARS over the top like you seem to believe.

Snipers are limited in regards to their mobility (from a certain point of view) because they're required to enter cover to gain immunity to pushback & interrupts and to use some of their abilities.

But when a melee class of any kind jumps on my Sniper, I don't scream at the ceiling and smash my head into my KB begging baby jesus to smite them and save me .. I simply pop plasma probe / orb strike and proceed to rip them apart until they run away or die. Sometimes I win sometimes I don't. Seems fair to me, in fact I wouldn't have it any other way.

Mercenary's are limited in regards to their mobility (from every point of view) because they are stationary cast heavy targets who rely on .... oh fiddlesticks what was the wording he uses ... lemme make sure I get Mr. Peckenpaugh's lingo correct, what was it?

"I think it's fair to say that Mercenaries and Commandos have escape issues. Admittedly, they can be very hard to catch when used correctly to hug corners, but a lot of that "escapability" falls aside when attacked by multiple melee enemies, at which point they just aren't quite tough enough to sustain without further escapes."

OH YEAH

Walls, We rely on walls.

Apparently that "escapability" falls short according to Mr. Peckenpaugh's analysis when multiple melee enemies focus 1 target. Go figure

I think it's fair to say that Mercenaries and Commandos have escape issues. Admittedly, they can be very hard to catch when used correctly to hug corners, but a lot of that "escapability" falls aside when attacked by multiple melee enemies, at which point they just aren't quite tough enough to sustain without further escapes. We have plans for the future that should give Mercenaries and Commandos better escapes in PvP.[/color]

_____________________________________________________________________________________

Glad my sub runs out on the 12th.

We need to be able to get out damage under pressure.

Tone down interrupts or link immunity to power barrier.

Actually sniper pay for that total immunity to interrupt by a big lack of mobility, something the current suggestion would actually make a merc a mobile weapon platform you can't do crap about. Do see how I suggested a few way to still grant that, without making it overpowered. Altough I feel like I'm arguing with a wall here, still has to be said. Sniper attacks being mostly ranged, they also are a lot more vulnerable to defense boost effects, accuracy reduction, and are in deep s**** if another sniper throws that little smoke grenade at them.

Did i miss the memo where tracer and unload were castable on the move ? I mean, did something change since i left my merc to rot ? Because if it didn't, i sense a disturbance in the force, mainly that of CASTING=SELF ROOT. As someone else pointed out before, to get to 5 stacks of power armor you still required to expose yourself in a nice, non-perverted way and do your thing while still being susceptible to interrupts. After you gain said "immunity", you are far from being a mobile weapon platform since every subsequent cast of unload/TM WILL ROOT YOU. To be a cast-based class/spec IS to be immobile. Snipers have their cover mechanic which works great to alleviate the pains of turreting from one spot. Lightning sorcs also got a bit of love with their overload root and stun bubble, but they're far from being a an effective spec because of the very same issues -- casting means giving up mobility and mobility is right up there with burst when talking about efficiency in pvp. So no, man, you can't compare apples with oranges.

Furthermore, Heavy armor doesn't mean much when most of the attacks out there ignore armor. Some hard-hitting abilities DO take armor into account, but armor simply won't make a difference. I can just as well run around in medium armor or whatever. It's like saying Mercs don't deserve mobility or some other type of utility because of their armor. Since swtor shamelessly and inefficiently copies WoW mechanics, you can go back in time and see what those warriors, paladins and feral druids thought about armor in pvp vs. kiters and magic-based classes. it has some value, but it's far from being a "make or break".

I agree with some of the things you said, but you can't say marginal advantages of the merc are basis for marginal buffs. Imo, the whole turret gameplay (stay in one place and spam abilities) is outdated. What they need is to implement casting on the move for all classes and that would fix dps mercs, dps sorcs, snipers may spec something else than MM, and we'd have a more dynamic environment, not to mention more fun and skill-based. Casting TM/Unload on the move would fix most, if not all of the Merc's problems without making it OP (since it will still be susceptible to LoS/interrupts). Even the Lightning tree of sorc may actually be viable.

It happened in WoW (but it was based on cooldown use or procs), it happens in GW2 (on most abilities, but not all), i don't see why swtor can't evolve into something better.

This class needs something. I think being immune to interrupts would help us in a big way I just think we should be careful how we go about giving that immunity to Mercenary's. Power Barrier is a legit way of doing it

Power Barrier can't be the key to unlock the buff for Merc dps, because it is available only to Arsenal, not Merc Pyro.

What I'd like to see is something that helps our subclass in a general way. Like making Iron Sights give +3% to Aim AND Accuracy. Make that offhand weapon actually effecive instead of a handicap that simply grants enemy attacking melee an automatic Riposte/Retaliation every GCD. Combine that with Jet Boost on a shorter CD and giving it a cleanse on movement imparing effects when used, would still leave us the worst subclass in the game for PvP, but at least the subclass would be playable. Plus those two changes wouldn't have any meaningful impact on PvE.

What I expect from BW however is something entirely different. Like Jet Boost on the same CD but granting a cleanse on movement imparing effects, while further nerfing one of our attack abilities. The problem here is that BW still thinks Merc dps does too much damage. They fundamentally can't wrap their heads around this one.

 

Clearly

Cleaaaarly.

Some people here don't quite understand how Public Relations work.

If a dev is asked about specific class or aspect of the game he helped create, of course he isn't going to come straight out and say "Yeah this class is really lacking in PvP right now" or "This is broken right now" he is going to downplay the negative aspects and offer the possibility a solution in the near future, regardless of whether or not hey actually do have one.

thats PR 101

Some people here don't quite understand how Public Relations work.

 

If a dev is asked about specific class or aspect of the game he helped create, of course he isn't going to come straight out and say "Yeah this class is really lacking in PvP right now" or "This is broken right now" he is going to downplay the negative aspects and offer the possibility a solution in the near future, regardless of whether or not hey actually do have one.

 

thats PR 101

why? this is an MMO, and putting PR 'spin' on anything is just about guaranteed to comeback and bite you in the butt.

if the community asks a question, we deserve to get the straight truth as an answer. anything else is a disrespect to our intelligence.

If a dev is asked about specific class or aspect of the game he helped create, of course he isn't going to come straight out and say "Yeah this class is really lacking in PvP right now" or "This is broken right now" he is going to downplay the negative aspects and offer the possibility a solution in the near future, regardless of whether or not hey actually do have one.

I actually agree with you. But this is also why there is extreme skepticism from the Merc player base that the devs will do the right thing regarding Merc class (im)balance. We simply have heard nothing indicating that the devs have correctly diagnosed the situation much less have concluded that something must be done.

Well there is only one solution to the "actual" (/sarcasm off as it's more then 6 months of this situation) PVP problem with Merc Arsenal spec (and Commando counterpart, of course):

Leave it be, don't play the class in PVP, just have fun in PVE where we are good at.

I finished my patience in waiting for Devs to change some mechanics into better ones and, with the last patch, they even worsened it all (and please do not tell me that now we have an interrupt, we should have had it since the beta).

What I can tell you is that, having arrived almost al 90 valor, but having no fun at all playing PVP with my Merc anymore, I decided to play it only in PVE, and I found back how fun it can be to play this game.

Is it sad ? Yes, definitely, but better then being mad everyday