http://social.bioware.com/forum/Gameplay/Realm-vs-Realm/Scientists-confirm-on-average-premades-are-better-than-PUGs-9987763-1.html

 

And Blizzards comment on the issue:

http://wow.joystiq.com/2012/12/05/blizzard-takes-a-stand-against-pre-mades-battleground-groups/

 

Pitting pugs vs premades can hardly be called "fair game"

It's not rocket surgery to realize that superior gear and experience....are well...superior. It's just as well saying that people with higher education earn higher wages than unskilled laborers. Guess that makes me a scientist as well?

It's not rocket surgery to realize that superior gear and experience....are well...superior. It's just as well saying that people with higher education earn higher wages than unskilled laborers. Guess that makes me a scientist as well?

The problem is

Being in a group doesn't mean you have higher skill gear or experience, it just means you know how to group invite.

Its not rocket science to realize that being in a group is not related at all to gear or experience.

And shouldn't players with more experience win anyway? It would be truly broken if bad players win against good players

(3) What I'm questioning is whether anyone can actually provide evidence that there is a plague of premades in SWTOR,

½) Thanks for the ad hominen remark. That really made you sound convincing.

1) When is it a plague?

2) I know that there are enough of them to impact my enjoyment of the game. This is also steeped in the fact that I consider the mere possibility of facing (or having on my team) a premade a major annoyance. I prefer the pug vs pug matches. Pug vs premade is by definition, an affront to my sense of a "fair fight" that slowly drains my enjoyment of queuing up.

So I consider it a problem. You might not. Good for you.

(3) What I'm questioning is whether anyone can actually provide evidence that there is a plague of premades in SWTOR, other than that they happen to get their **** kicked a lot? I'm guessing not. It's like voter fraud: certain groups try to take advantage of fear as a wedge issue to change the system to their advantage. In reality, the amount of actual fraud taking place is insignificant at worst.

Ranked 8 vs 8 died. Not enough premade did them they were busy stomping casuals in unranked, You killed my PVP...

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=690301

Ranked 8 vs 8 died. Not enough premade did them they were busy stomping casuals in unranked, You killed my PVP...

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=690301

That's not what killed 8v8 rwz...

A study based on Halo: Reach........lol not kidding a premade in a FPS game is going to be better

....

people whine because they lose and they want to rationalize their loss, nothing more.

I get premades on my team all the time and we still lose, because most of the time its against a better premade.

Premades are better statistically, though its the skill of teamwork that makes the most impact.

People should just whine about separating good and bad players. They won't, though, because that would require admitting that they suck.

½) Thanks for the ad hominen remark. That really made you sound convincing.

You're welcome! Glad you got to take advantage of your prep school Latin as well. Hopefully, the previous sentence doesn't come across as too ad hominen; it was typed in more of a snarky frame of mind.

If you want an argument that rates higher on Graham's Disagreement Hierarchy, you can go back and actually read my original post.

And shouldn't players with more experience win anyway? It would be truly broken if bad players win against good players

nowadays, people will actually say no.

That's not what killed 8v8 rwz...

Now why stop there, you tell me then why did ranked 8 vs 8 die, and if you only say game mechanics your credibility goes out the window ...

Well; I just Q'ed for warzones for the first time since 2.0 in my mixed partisan and Conq gear. Fully augmented and I played..not great. Here's the thing, I was usually first or second DPS on my team, including the last one I went into against a "premade." Thats right, just me and one other guy got over 200k damage, the rest barely cracked 100k and the debate went on about premades. I did at least one series of node guard and capping in a hypergate at that, and I think the other 20k+ did as well as we both came in to an ungaurded pylon at one point.

Frankly; I'm not that good. But at least I realize that was part of the problem. More so than the composition of group or the focus fire. (BTW, I tried to set my focus and get their target, but they would be on powertechs when 2 healers are around. I only started that after realizing I failed in an arena to utilize that very well. Turns out it didn't matter.) To top it off; we had our shots and it was close for a little bit, but as they pulled ahead, desperation and despair set in and the gap widened.

Basically; I am a frustrated PUG and I am frustrated with myself first and foremost and a premade would only make my list of things to be frustrated with if I felt I and my team did everything they possibly could do. I know I didn't.

Edit: not since 2.0 but since arenas

Well; I just Q'ed for warzones for the first time since 2.0 in my mixed partisan and Conq gear. Fully augmented and I played..not great. Here's the thing, I was usually first or second DPS on my team, including the last one I went into against a "premade." Thats right, just me and one other guy got over 200k damage, the rest barely cracked 100k and the debate went on about premades. I did at least one series of node guard and capping in a hypergate at that, and I think the other 20k+ did as well as we both came in to an ungaurded pylon at one point.

 

Frankly; I'm not that good. But at least I realize that was part of the problem. More so than the composition of group or the focus fire. (BTW, I tried to set my focus and get their target, but they would be on powertechs when 2 healers are around. I only started that after realizing I failed in an arena to utilize that very well. Turns out it didn't matter.) To top it off; we had our shots and it was close for a little bit, but as they pulled ahead, desperation and despair set in and the gap widened.

 

Basically; I am a frustrated PUG and I am frustrated with myself first and foremost and a premade would only make my list of things to be frustrated with if I felt I and my team did everything they possibly could do. I know I didn't.

what are you doing here? this thread is for irrationally blaming others for your own shortcomings.

what are you doing here? this thread is for irrationally blaming others for your own shortcomings.

Nope, this thread is about asking BioWare to create a separate queue for solo queuer's so that they don't have to get ganged up on by premades. Now I know that some premades are only out there to pug stomp solo queuer's into the ground, and they believe that the only reason that solo queuer's are their is to give them shorter queue times. Well, I for one can tell you that I am not there just to provide content for premade groups. and I want a separate queue so that I can spend more time playing the game and less time on the forums talking about what needs to be fixed.

By the way the only reason that I am here posting right now is because premades are currently playing on my server, and I refuse to play while they are, so I just logged off and decided to call it quits for the night. I can only hope that others will follow my lead, and the premades will find that their content has logged off and have left them with ever longer queue times.

Nope, this thread is about asking BioWare to create a separate queue for solo queuer's so that they don't have to get ganged up on by premades. Now I know that some premades are only out there to pug stomp solo queuer's into the ground, and they believe that the only reason that solo queuer's are their is to give them shorter queue times. Well, I for one can tell you that I am not there just to provide content for premade groups. and I want a separate queue so that I can spend more time playing the game and less time on the forums talking about what needs to be fixed.

 

By the way the only reason that I am here posting right now is because premades are currently playing on my server, and I refuse to play while they are, so I just logged off and decided to call it quits for the night. I can only hope that others will follow my lead, and the premades will find that their content has logged off and have left them with ever longer queue times.

apparently you missed the "solo ranked queue". I never see premades in it

apparently you missed the "solo ranked queue". I never see premades in it

Apparently you forgot to read the earlier arguments why your point isn't working.

I still don't get why premades are for the mixing of pugs versus premades? All it does is alienates new pvp'ers and lengthens queue times in the long run.

Apparently you forgot to read the earlier arguments why your point isn't working.

 

I still don't get why premades are for the mixing of pugs versus premades? All it does is alienates new pvp'ers and lengthens queue times in the long run.

no, i read them. they are irrationally blaming premades, and acting like the premades are cheating and can never lose, the same way they have for the past several hundred pages. You got a solo-only queue and still complain, further validating what i said.

no, i read them. they are irrationally blaming premades, and acting like the premades are cheating and can never lose, the same way they have for the past several hundred pages. You got a solo-only queue and still complain, further validating what i said.

You're not arguing the points. You're just throwing out strawmen fallacies. Oh well, then.

Now why stop there, you tell me then why did ranked 8 vs 8 die, and if you only say game mechanics your credibility goes out the window ...

Because it was removed from the game..hence a massive protest from people that did play ranked and a mass exodus of players, collapses of guilds etc - the kind of which you like to complain about in multiple threads. Most of them left already.

You're not arguing the points. You're just throwing out strawmen fallacies. Oh well, then.

the statement originally was, if premades are a problem, then a solo-queue will fix solo queuer's being facerolled. A solo queue did not fix it, therefore premades were not the problem. Sorry that you cannot comprehend basic logic.

solo queue did not fix it, therefore premades were not the problem. Sorry that you cannot comprehend basic logic.

There is a solo only queue for 8v8 warzones? That would be new to me. We have solo queue only for Huttball? Sweet!

And just to use your own argument against you: There is a ranked group queue too. It's specifically designed for premades

Its the same faulty song and dance argumentation that people before you have tried. It's not addressing the problem.

There is a solo only queue for 8v8 warzones? That would be new to me. We have solo queue only for Huttball? Sweet!

 

And just to use your own argument against you: There is a ranked group queue too. It's specifically designed for premades

1. i never said solo queue for everything, simply that one exists

2. premades arent the ones complaining, we do not have a problem with the current system

It's not so much of a problem to address as far as queues go. The real problem you need a solution to is "How can pugs perform as good as premades?"

Well; what advantage do premades have? Communication? It's pretty easy to type what nodes to attack before gates go down, or for focus fire, communicate again before the match starts to come up with a plan on who will take point and pick the targets to focus. Don't know about you, but all I have to do is target that teammate and hit alt-F and then when he gets a target, hit Ctrl-F but I don't know if that is the default control.

What I am getting at really is no separate queues is ever going to make up for a lack of communication. That might be too much to ask for as you can ask for a plan before the match starts and get silence or at most "kill the other team" or even ask if anyone is heals and get silence. The most chatter you seem to get in a PUG is always when things are going bad then it is someone spewing hate or just ************ about the premade on the other side.

Now why stop there, you tell me then why did ranked 8 vs 8 die, and if you only say game mechanics your credibility goes out the window ...

First, Bioware killed 8v8 rwz as they were still alive and well on the bastion and pot5 thanks to server transfers. There were a few problems with ranked warzones and only one was actually on bioware. One was you needed proper group composition. At release there were basically 3 dps classes you could use, PT, snipers, and warrior, sorcs were somewhat viable for healing but needed a op and a jug for a main tank and a sin for off tank. So at the beginning it was fairly limited as to who you could take. Though with 2.0 other classes became viable making it easier to field teams.

The other issue was absolutely no matchmaking and this is on bioware. I remember there being around 15+ teams on pot5 queuing up and there was nothing to prevent a <casual> (The team at the end) from facing some new team and beating them into the ground without breaking a sweat. And this somewhat goes into the exclusion part of ranked. Not a lot of the top tier teams would change it up outside of replacing spots with other of the higher ranked teams. It was not easy for new teams in general to get their feet off the ground.

In reality ranked were fairly popular and enjoyable for a decent portion of the teams but with no matchmaking or cross server they were destined to die out which is why they were replaced with arenas. Arenas are easier to set up, has somewhat of a matchmaking system and is open up to a wider range of specs/classes and players due to having a solo and grouped ranking feature. It's just more casual friendly but not everyone wants arenas. Look at the petition to bring back 8v8, lots of people still supported it.

So no, it wasn't 4 man premades wanting to stomp pugs and not wanting to do ranked, that is a stupid argument. The ranked scene didn't start til later in primetime and if teams couldn't get the players needed they would run regs until they did. You don't just stop PvPing because ranked isn't happening. I suppose the same thing is going on now especially on the smaller servers.

Nothing is ever going to change or help improve anything until cross servers come out which will never happen. Because this game has no where near the population that WoW has (never played it but it was pretty f'in popular) they cant afford to further split the queues up or force every group into ranked since every premade is not made equal nor should be forced into a game type they have no interest in as arenas can be somewhat of a niche thing.

Nope, this thread is about asking BioWare to create a separate queue for solo queuer's so that they don't have to get ganged up on by premades.

Setting aside, for the moment, this apparent premade apocalypse in SWTOR: hopefully, we can all acknowledge that BW has created an objective-based WZ model that rewards highly coordinated play (valor points, commendations, etc.), and penalizes uncoordinated play (sad faces all around, heads banging on keyboards, group therapy, etc.). And, highly coordinated play is rewarded regardless of whether or not you have prior intent to do so.

Given this, it stands to reason that the complainers on this thread are looking for a queue that provides the OPPOSITE: rewards for highly uncoordinated play. I am certainly not an expert on incentive models, but what I do know is that humans (and most primate species) will try to game them to their advantage. Knowing this, the monstrous premades (I hear they are also a primate species) would find a way to "ruin" any new solo WZ queue that BW created (resulting in yet another 600 page thread), unless the incentive structure is changed.

This is the only thing that makes sense to me at this point. Unless: the only other logical explanation is that the complainers want the same incentives as players who put effort into coordinated gameplay, but they don't want to be bothered to actually put effort into coordination. It's like a soccer league for preschoolers: you can't keep score, and everyone gets a trophy. I hear WoW offers this sort of gameplay.

People should just whine about separating good and bad players. They won't, though, because that would require admitting that they suck.

Words of the wise folks.