PVP DOES NEED A DAMAGE BUFF!

 

man i hate people who dont know what they are talking about, look at the damage of an assassin.... A scoundrel is a joke against that.

Sorry buddy, but if you think that you ABSOLUTELY NEED a dps buff for PVP, then you, my friend, have a L2P issue.

The biggest damage buff concealment get for pvp is more survivability.

Even after all damage nerfs, you can pull decent numbers if you are not burned down immediately. Mind you we are single target spec, not smashers.

The ather thing is, it isn't sustained that is the problem in PVP. Concealment can even parse decently in PVE if in the hands of a good player (by far not at the top end, but better than both assassin dps specs). What we lack in PVP is reliable burst. If none of the hard hitters crits you can as well just die, and having that RNG badluck happens quite a lot.

the reason smash mara are so popular is because they have both... very good survivability and very reliable burst (on top of that it is AoE).. Same for the PT Hybrid..

But i guess we will see, what the dev make out of that.... hopefully it is more than just a quickshot buff

Sorry buddy, but if you think that you ABSOLUTELY NEED a dps buff for PVP, then you, my friend, have a L2P issue.

I dont die.... i got my healer in group and everything is fine. If you think you do damage with your scoundrel prove it to me. I bet my shadow will outdamage you in every situation. I play both, a shadow and a scoundrel. Both Obrana geared and completly modded. The Scoundrel is a joke in Damage. Do you have both Classes geared? Then you are maybe a fool or you have to learn playing.

I really dont know what you people are doing? do you really think the scoundrel dps is okay? The survivability will change nothing! In Rated Arenas the single target damage is a joke compared to Assassins..... Everbody who isnt seeing this has never played an assassin.

I dont die.... i got my healer in group and everything is fine. If you think you do damage with your scoundrel prove it to me. I bet my shadow will outdamage you in every situation. I play both, a shadow and a scoundrel. Both Obrana geared and completly modded. The Scoundrel is a joke in Damage. Do you have both Classes geared? Then you are maybe a fool or you have to learn playing.

 

I really dont know what you people are doing? do you really think the scoundrel dps is okay? The survivability will change nothing! In Rated Arenas the single target damage is a joke compared to Assassins..... Everbody who isnt seeing this has never played an assassin.

more reliable burst they have, better survivability they have too. And sometimes they have these insane crits, but in sustained damage scrapper/concealment if you can deliver it is actually better.

http://i.imgur.com/0HcDxA6.jpg

was friend of mine just, having a go at scrapper.

I dont die.... i got my healer in group and everything is fine. If you think you do damage with your scoundrel prove it to me. I bet my shadow will outdamage you in every situation. I play both, a shadow and a scoundrel. Both Obrana geared and completly modded. The Scoundrel is a joke in Damage. Do you have both Classes geared? Then you are maybe a fool or you have to learn playing.

 

I really dont know what you people are doing? do you really think the scoundrel dps is okay? The survivability will change nothing! In Rated Arenas the single target damage is a joke compared to Assassins..... Everbody who isnt seeing this has never played an assassin.

I don't play an assassin and even I know scrapper/concealment damage is a friggin joke at best. But I've felt a geared assassin when he 3 shotted me from max health with max expertise. that's 28k damage in 6 seconds. You know like concealments and scrappers used to do.... But that was overpowered they said; Back then I can agree right now it's downright inexcuseable.

Here's what Maul does to a geared Concealment/Scrapper; When was the last time this class saw numbers like these? 2 years ago at launch. And this was just 1 of 3 skills that hit this hard for Assassins/Shadows... All of which are used out of stealth.

10k hit

Imagine if I got hit by discharge before or after that... that's 18k - 20k damage in less than 3 seconds.... And people think our stunlocks are overpowered? lol?

In order for a concealment/scrapper to equal that damage;

Bioware would have to do 1 of 2 things.

A. Increase HS damage to 10-15k damage (with Auto-Crit)

B. Or if HS hits like a wet noodle then double Acid Blade Dot Damage to 6000 damage over 6 seconds AND drop backstab's CD to 9 seconds instead of 12 like it used to be.

To be honest I prefer B.

Then we MIGHT be on par with assassins/shadows in terms of burst damage. Assuming a head to head gear for gear comparison.

Suggested changes for Conc.

Lucky Number: Hidden Strike deals 30% more damage, and can be used when targets are below 30% health. Additionally, Cloaking Screen's cool down is reduced by 30 seconds.

Pursuer's Bane: Targets attacking the Operative receive a debuff, reducing their accuracy by 1% per stack. Stacks up to 10 times, and cannot occur more than once every 1.5 seconds. When the target reaches the 10th stack, they receive a periodic effect that deals x while the effect is active. Lasts 10 seconds.

Hidden Assassin: Cloaking Screen resets the cooldown of Explosive Probe, Backstab, and Hidden Strike, and increases the damage of the next Hidden Strike by 10%. Additionally, when Backstab or Acid Blade detonate explosive probe, the target suffers from Panic, reducing their damage dealt by 15% and damage taken by 15%.

Stiletto: Reduces the cooldown of backstab by 3 seconds, and increases it's damage by 5% per debuff (Pursuers Bane/Panic) or periodic effect placed by the operative (Acid Blade, Corrosive Dart)

Concealed Attacks additionally increases the critical chance by 30%/60% of Hidden Strike while stealthed.

Poisonous Intent: Increases the damage of Acid Blade by 15% and duration by 5 seconds.

Just some thoughts

Not bad changes. I like the 100% proc change now, since using Sucker Punch w/o a proc is annoying (Love Sucker + Flying Fist). The Crit damage + Crit chance buff is well needed. The nerf to energy, at first, shocked me, but then I realized we proc it 100% of the time, so shouldn't be an issue. Overall, DECENT changes. Not great, but much MUCH better than 2.5... Hoping to see more soon. TBH, was hoping Waylay/Sawed off would be more like 15 or 20% instead of a 1% increase... Laceration's going to be hitting damn near close now, if not higher...

As for Lethality DPS increase, do they really need one? One of the top parsing specs already.

As for Lethality DPS increase, do they really need one? One of the top parsing specs already.

It was a question, not a comment. I don't think the spec needs a damage increase either.

For the Scoundrels checking in...

 

• Scrappy now increases the damage dealt by Blaster Whip, Quick Shot, and Back Blast by 5% (up from 4%).
  
• Flying Fists now has a 50/100% chance to trigger when Sucker Punch is used (up from 35/70%).
  
• Turn the Tables now increases the damage dealt by Sucker Punch and Flying Fists by 3/6% (up from 2/4%) and recovers 4/8 energy whenever Flying Fists damages an enemy target (down from 5/10).
  
• Sawed Off now increases the damage dealt by Back Blast by 5% (up from 4%).
  
• Underdog now additionally increases the critical damage dealt by Sucker Punch by 10/20/30%, but no longer increases the critical damage dealt by Tendon Blast.
  
• Rolling Punches no longer increases alacrity when triggered, but now increases ranged and tech critical chance by 2/4/6% instead.
  

• Minor buff, but it can't be that big as this talent is also used by Dirty Fighting/Lethality. Upvote
  
• More reliable damage output and energy management. Upvote
  
• Less energy returned more reliably, and more damage to boot. Upvote
  
• Might want to put this talent on the list for a complete overhaul. As it's a less efficacious version of Scrappy with a pre-requisite to boot. Not going to complain about a buff to it though. Upvote
  
• I'm sure going to miss that Tendon Blast crit-multiplier. Downvote .....
  Just Kidding! Upvote!
   
  
• Crit proc for a crit reliant spec. Upvote
  

You guys really didn't need to get me anything for my birthday, but I appreciate you surprising me with this!

As you can see, there is quite a bit happening to increase Concealment damage in 2.6. Now, I know one of the things that came out of the brainstorming threads and the Class Reps was that you need survivability. I want to tell you that we don't disagree with that sentiment at all! The issue that stands currently is that most of the survivability of the Operative is tied into the base class. That means that if we increase Concealment survivability, we are also going to increase how hard it is to kill a Medicine Operative. That isn't ideal.

 

We are still exploring options but it will take a bit of time as we tackle increasing the DPS specs survivability without doing the same for Medicine.

Yes, most of the survivability is currently tied into the base class, but that wouldn't be too difficult to change. Examples: how hard would be it be to increase the dodge/evasion roll proc chance from 50% to 100%? Or df/lethality's kolto pack/infusion roll proc chance from 30%?

So basically, dps operative will still be useless in organized pvp.

Not useless as dps, it's just that heal spec is far more useful.

Eric, thank you very much for checking in here and sharing your feedback, however I have to admit I was hoping for a bit more for us lethality folks. In PVE we are fine, more than fine really. The problem is though that in PVP we are the second worst DPS spec, with only concealment being lower. With these buffs concealment will move up a bit in the ranks, and were gonna end up competing for worst overall pvp dps with madness sins.

Lethality lacks defenses and it lacks utility, this is why it is not a desirable spec. If we can deliver our burst we are deadly, but we can manage to do so only rarely and generally suffer from being a very easy kill. The cover nerf in 2.5 eviscerated our best defense against knight type classes (which have always been a counter to us).

Basically the issue is this, we are a class that can't afford to be kited and has few defenses to being kited. So if there is one request I would make of the dev team its this:

__________________________________

BUFF OUR RANGE PLEASE!

------------------------------------------------------------

Buffing range doesn't affect PVE in any way where we are, as I said before, more than fine. Buffing range however does make us contenders in PVP because while squishy, we will be more difficult to avoid. This works well for madness sorcs for example, they too hit hard and are very squishy but they don't suffer from being kited the same way we do.

An even smaller change that would go a long way towards helping us out would be returning to us the benefits of cover as part of a high end perk. Though not intended to be such by the devs, cover was our best defense against melee classes and coupled well with exfiltrate. If you could stun, shiv sprint, exfiltrate, and then go into cover, you were likely 20+ m away and could afford to heal up which in turn also gives you TA's to continue culling when the enemy closed. This was critical because a good smasher can kill us in about 5-7 moves depending on crit while we need to first burn through all his various DCD's. Basically, the longer we could draw the fight out the better. Now we can't do this any more since we are denied the ability to hold ground and the result is that against a smasher our only option is to restealth, you can't even run away effectively otherwise.

Also about our scoreboard numbers. If you look at your metrics, you will see that lethality operatives have very high damage numbers in most warzones. This may look like it means that we are fine, it does not. If I use nothing but corrosive dart and corrosive grenade for an entire round of voidstar across 5 targets with 100% up time, I will easily break 1,000,000 damage without having killed anyone (math below). This is fluff damage, it looks cool on the score board but it isn't worth anything because a full 30s of dot damage is easily healed with a single 2s cast from a healer. Its just the fact that I have it ticking on so many enemies at once that makes it look impressive but it accomplishes nothing.

Math supporting my point:

Base abilities:

Corrosive grenade: ~3600 damage over 21s

Corrosive dart: ~2500 over 15s (not counting double ticks)

Match time: 15 minutes

Assumed up time: 85% *to account for purges and deaths

Targets: 5

Actual up time: 765s

Damage outcomes:

Grenade: 3600*5*765/21 = 655714

Dart: 2500*5*765/15 = 637500

Total theoretical damage done = 1.29 million*

This is assuming I never crit, never had a relic pop, and never had a toxic dart double tick.

This is a very large number, but the actual dps per target is a puny 286. (1.29 mil/ 5 targets/ 900 seconds). For comparison, rifle shot does about 500 dps.

So in this scenario where I scored 1.29 million damage, I was doing less individual target damage than if I had followed one guy around the entire match and used nothing but rifle shot.

I hope this proves my point that score board numbers for a dot class do not in any way speak for its viability.

Eric, thank you very much for checking in here and sharing your feedback, however I have to admit I was hoping for a bit more for us lethality folks. In PVE we are fine, more than fine really. The problem is though that in PVP we are the second worst DPS spec, with only concealment being lower. With these buffs concealment will move up a bit in the ranks, and were gonna end up competing for worst overall pvp dps with madness sins.

 

Lethality lacks defenses and it lacks utility, this is why it is not a desirable spec. If we can deliver our burst we are deadly, but we can manage to do so only rarely and generally suffer from being a very easy kill. The cover nerf in 2.5 eviscerated our best defense against knight type classes (which have always been a counter to us).

 

Basically the issue is this, we are a class that can't afford to be kited and has few defenses to being kited. So if there is one request I would make of the dev team its this:

 

__________________________________

BUFF OUR RANGE PLEASE!

------------------------------------------------------------

 

Buffing range doesn't affect PVE in any way where we are, as I said before, more than fine. Buffing range however does make us contenders in PVP because while squishy, we will be more difficult to avoid. This works well for madness sorcs for example, they too hit hard and are very squishy but they don't suffer from being kited the same way we do.

 

An even smaller change that would go a long way towards helping us out would be returning to us the benefits of cover as part of a high end perk. Though not intended to be such by the devs, cover was our best defense against melee classes and coupled well with exfiltrate. If you could stun, shiv sprint, exfiltrate, and then go into cover, you were likely 20+ m away and could afford to heal up which in turn also gives you TA's to continue culling when the enemy closed. This was critical because a good smasher can kill us in about 5-7 moves depending on crit while we need to first burn through all his various DCD's. Basically, the longer we could draw the fight out the better. Now we can't do this any more since we are denied the ability to hold ground and the result is that against a smasher our only option is to restealth, you can't even run away effectively otherwise.

 

Also about our scoreboard numbers. If you look at your metrics, you will see that lethality operatives have very high damage numbers in most warzones. This may look like it means that we are fine, it does not. If I use nothing but corrosive dart and corrosive grenade for an entire round of voidstar across 5 targets with 100% up time, I will easily break 1,000,000 damage without having killed anyone (math below). This is fluff damage, it looks cool on the score board but it isn't worth anything because a full 30s of dot damage is easily healed with a single 2s cast from a healer. Its just the fact that I have it ticking on so many enemies at once that makes it look impressive but it accomplishes nothing.

 

Math supporting my point:

Base abilities:

Corrosive grenade: ~3600 damage over 21s

Corrosive dart: ~2500 over 15s (not counting double ticks)

Match time: 15 minutes

Assumed up time: 85% *to account for purges and deaths

Targets: 5

Actual up time: 765s

 

Damage outcomes:

Grenade: 3600*5*765/21 = 655714

Dart: 2500*5*765/15 = 637500

Total theoretical damage done = 1.29 million*

This is assuming I never crit, never had a relic pop, and never had a toxic dart double tick.

 

This is a very large number, but the actual dps per target is a puny 286. (1.29 mil/ 5 targets/ 900 seconds). For comparison, rifle shot does about 500 dps.

 

So in this scenario where I scored 1.29 million damage, I was doing less individual target damage than if I had followed one guy around the entire match and used nothing but rifle shot.

 

I hope this proves my point that score board numbers for a dot class do not in any way speak for its viability.

This sums it up well. Ops need a reason not to spec OP heal spec. If no changes to Lethality, Medicine needs to be nerfed, HARD. Or perhaps just make the tank class' taunts reduce healing as well as damage, and extend the duration.

Do the math on what Lacerate will be hitting for, counting on removing some crit from your gear to take advantage of the 6% we're getting free.

I can already taste the tears.

On a more serious note, pleasantly surprised that these buffs are reasonable and not heavy handed in any area. No massive redesigns, small % tweaks. I like it.

Hey everyone!

 

Although you will see the 2.6 patch notes fairly soon™, I wanted to show you guys the changes we have made for Concealment Ops and talk a bit about why you didn't see survivability changes yet. First the 2.6 changes!

 

• Surgical Strikes now increases the damage dealt by Shiv, Overload Shot, and Backstab by 5% (up from 4%).
  
• Collateral Strike now has a 50/100% chance to trigger when Laceration is used (up from 35/70%).
  
• Culling now increases the damage dealt by Laceration and Collateral Strike by 3/6% (up from 2/4%) and recovers 4/8 energy whenever Collateral Strike damages an enemy target (down from 5/10).
  
• Waylay now increases the damage dealt by Backstab by 5% (up from 4%).
  
• Meticulously Kept Blades now additionally increases the critical damage dealt by Laceration by 10/20/30%, but no longer increases the critical damage dealt by Sever Tendon.
  
• Calculated Frenzy no longer increases Alacrity when triggered, but now increases ranged and tech critical chance by 2/4/6% instead.
  

As you can see, there is quite a bit happening to increase Concealment damage in 2.6. Now, I know one of the things that came out of the brainstorming threads and the Class Reps was that you need survivability. I want to tell you that we don't disagree with that sentiment at all! The issue that stands currently is that most of the survivability of the Operative is tied into the base class. That means that if we increase Concealment survivability, we are also going to increase how hard it is to kill a Medicine Operative. That isn't ideal.

 

We are still exploring options but it will take a bit of time as we tackle increasing the DPS specs survivability without doing the same for Medicine.

 

Hope that makes sense!

 

-eric

I want to be excited, but I can't help but feel that your reason for not addressing survivability is a bit of a copout.

I completely agree that DPS operative survivability needs to be buffed WITHOUT increasing the survivability of a medicine operative. It seems to me that you're trying to distract us from the survivability issue by throwing damage number scaling in our face while ignoring survivability. The "Brainstorming" thread in the operative forum had tons and tons of ideas of ways to address survivability for DPS operatives while leaving medicine survivability untouched. PLEASE consider some of these options before swearing off survivability buffs for 2.6. We need them.

While I appreciate a push in the right direction, I would still not seriously take a DPS operative on my ranked 4v4 team with these changes. And they're the only DPS class that I would say that about, as I have actively run all other DPS classes on competitive teams. That being said, I guess it will be fun to nuke kids in regs even harder..

I can't help but feel that your reason for not addressing survivability is a bit of a copout.

 

This.

Buffing dps survivability without doing the same for healers is as easy as placing the buffs high enough into the dps trees. Come on Bioware, this shouldn't even have to be pointed out