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Even out the classes!!!


Kyzic

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I just going to come out and say it SS is garbage for PvP. I used to love it and swore by it then I saw how bad it is. Almost all your dmg is deflected, absorbed, and migated. Yeah sure once is awhile you'll fine a sorc or sage with no bubble and can get a +6k AS and burst them down in seconds, but other then that you can't do anything. Have fun against anyone that knows what they are doing. DF is easily the best spec when it comes to PvP. A SS will never out dps a DF, and in a 1v1 DF owns it hard. Only why people like SS is because it's the easiest spec to play. Every good GS/Sniper on Bastion runs DF/Lethality, hmmm I wonder why... :rolleyes:

 

Come at me bros.

Edited by HeavensTerror
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Gonna come at you bro. SS while I fully admit is not the most effective damage dealing spec, nothing and I mean nothing can finish a target faster when they are low on health. I LOL at you guys saying SS is not mobile. What game are you playing? I am constantly CCing, protecting the healer, having to use the 4m stun to peel of a teammate, having to peel for myself, I am all over the place. I guess if your style is to trench in and just pew pew low HP targets GS and SS would suck for you.The instant Burst shot, no cooldown on your shield def thingie and quickdraw which can be used out of cover should be an obvious signs SS is meant to be played as a mobile class not intrenched up like an idiot. But your only playing half the class. We are just as much support as we are DPS if played correctly with our various CC's and high burst potential. I never chase a low HP target, if I have removed them from the fighting area while they run 30m away and heal, I have done my job. If I hit a node and start AS,BS and QD all the low HP targets, cc the attackers on my healer, peel for my teammates I def won't have as much damage as say the Sentinel beside me, but I made one hell of a difference, while he mostly gave the enemy healer free medals.

 

Gunslingers and snipers can be game changers if played correctly. Maras and the like, not so much. Just my opinion tho.

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I just going to come out and say it SS is garbage for PvP. I used to love it and swore by it then I saw how bad it is. Almost all your dmg is deflected, absorbed, and migated. Yeah sure once is awhile you'll fine a sorc or sage with no bubble and can get a +6k AS and burst them down in seconds, but other then that you can't do anything. Have fun against anyone that knows what they are doing. DF is easily the best spec when it comes to PvP. A SS will never out dps a DF, and in a 1v1 DF owns it hard. Only why people like SS is because it's the easiest spec to play. Every good GS/Sniper on Bastion runs DF/Lethality, hmmm I wonder why... :rolleyes:

 

Come at me bros.

 

No offense, but you simply have no idea what you are talking about.

 

I play an MM Sniper. Exclusively. My first PvP match was on the last week of July. I am now full War Hero and lvl 80 Valor with over 15,508 kills, 7010 medals, and 916 MVPs. I can lay down damage so hard that the other team usually stops focusing on the healers and actively start trying to take me down because I am bombing them.

 

The misconception problem with Agents is that not enough people play them, so most people don't know anything about them. I would also be willing to say that due to the rather steep learning curve, the average journeyman Sniper is just not that good. Please don't misconstrue my observations for arrogance. Each of the sniper specs have a specific role.

 

Marksman/Sharpshooters: This is a burst spec and a huge force multiplier. Period. It is very good against light and medium armored targets. Your job should be to remove people from the battlefield as quickly as possible, especially healers. Extremely lethal when left alone, in tandem with another sniper, or working with a pocket healer. With their limited Tech Attacks and reliance on their weapons based attacks, while weaker against heavy armor and against shielded targets, they are not helpless. It just takes significantly more work and skill to eliminate those hardened threats. Played correctly, they more than make up for it in burst damage and applying pressure on healers.

Engineering/Saboteur: This is a support/utility spec that does good AoE damage, fair burst, and is the most survivable of the Sniper specs. It does an awesome job at denying the opposition a piece of real estate due to Plasma Probe/Incendiary Grenade. This spec holds a slight advantage over MM with handling classes with heavy armor and shields due to better Tech Attacks, but the loss of burst gives them more trouble with healers. That said, the spec 's DPS numbers are usually padded from AoE tags rather than killing blows. Sustained damage isn't valued in PvP, but the versatility and utility of the class makes up for it.

Lethality/Dirty Fighting: This is a tank killing spec. If you are trying to kill heavy armored targets, shielded targets, or maybe counter snipe...then this is the spec for you. They are very mobile and their poisons are a Tech Attack which bypasses armor and shields. Unfortunately, that comes at two hefty expenses. First, they don't have any burst. Second, they are severely gimped against healers since a good one will dispel/cleanse your poisons off both themselves and anybody else they are covering. In WZs where the opposition is light on healing, Lethality specs do awesome....but in a WZ with 2-3 healers on the opposition team, they are seriously gimped and there really isn't anything they can do about it either.

 

So to both the OP and HeavensTerror, this is a classic case of "Know Your Role, Accept Your Role, Do Your Role." For MY role, I chose to remove people from the field of battle at quickly as I can and to pressure/kill healers. For that role, I chose the spec that I feel best does just that.

 

One more point. People, the amount of overall damage is NOT the most important aspect of PvP. People think it is, but it is NOT. The most important aspect of PvP is to REMOVE PEOPLE FROM THE FIELD OF BATTLE. Doing so opens up greater opportunities while creating gaps or putting pressure on the opposition's defense. I would much rather do 200000 Damage in a match w/ 35 kills, 16 of them by Killing Blow than 500000 damage in a match with 40 kills and 5 Killing Blows. It is of my opinion and experience that removing people from the battle wins far more games than utility and overall damage every time.

 

Regards

Edited by BeatdownPatrol
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long winded rant

 

Dirty Fighting has no burst? But I'm the one that doesn't know what I'm talking about. Try a sab charge/aim shot/wounding shots. DF can do as much burst if not more then SS.

 

I don't care you're valor 80 blah blah blah. I'm valor 90 full WH Aug (including Elite WH), but you don't see me throwing it around in peoples faces, but I really don't care. You are only gimping yourself if you play SS in PvP. You said it yourself you play MM exclusively, so you are biased. Have fun with your garbage spec.

Edited by HeavensTerror
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Inelegant Rage Rant

 

Now, here you go and tell everyone to "Come at me bros" and when somebody challenges your blatantly false statement that "SS is garbage for PvP", you immediately get all butthurt? Ar...Are you serious? So I attempt to list my experience as a means to show you that I am not some NOOB, but you interpret that as "throwing it in everyone's face"? Oh...but you turn right around and post YOUR credential in the very....next...sentence. (I actually laughed at that, btw. Then I realized you WERE being serious.) Finally, you took my statements as some referendum against DF when in fact I am simply saying that SS and DF serve different roles and set out to establish so. End. Stop. You on the other hand seem to be trying awful hard to de-legitimize one spec in preference for yours based on conjecture. I am sure that I am not alone when I say that you look and sound very disingenuous right about now and I think I am being trolled.

 

Be that as it may, I will still respond to the more intelligent in this forum.

 

Compared to SharpShooter/Marksmanship, Dirty Fighting/Lethality has no burst. Go do some parses on a dummy before you make an ignorant statement like that. SS/MM's rotation starts the same except they can spec into Independent Anarchy/Explosive Engineering for +10-15% damage to Sabo Charge/Explosive Probe AND Sharp Aim/Precision Ambush for 20% Armor Bypass on Aim Shot/Ambush. Right there you are already behind because even if you spec into one, you won't get the other.

 

From there, you do Wounding Shots/Cull...but wait...you have not loaded the target up with bleeds/poisons, so your vaunted Wounding Shots/Cull does a whopping base damage of 1635 over 3 seconds. Literally half the damage of Burst Volley/Series of Shots. As for me, I do an instant (read: no channel) Charged Burst/Snipe b/c of Snap Shot for 3059 base and another instant (read: no channel) Trickshot/Followthrough for 1617. A medium/light armored target is at 30% at that point, so I do ANOTHER instant (read: no channel) Takedown for 4089 base.

 

Even if a DF/Leth did the same amount of dmg with both Sabo & Aim Shot (which they can't), SS/MM did 7130 base damage more than a channeled and gimped Wounding Shots. If you start talking about DoTing up the target, go ahead. If they are a healer, the DoTs get cleansed. If they are another sniper, SS has a 20-25 meter range advantage on all their abilities vs. your 10 meter range for Wounding Shots/Cull AND Hemorrhaging Blast/Weakening Blast. So basically, by claiming that you are doing the same or more burst in your DF as a SS, you are essentially telling the community that you were actuality, very very bad at SS.

Edited by BeatdownPatrol
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Straight up rage post

 

You can throw all the numbers at me I don't care. SS/MM is the weakest spec in PvP hands down. The minute anyone puts up any type of CD your effectiveness goes down, and lets not even talk about tanks or anything with a bit of defense. SS is easy to shut down.

 

I'd love to see some of your gameplay if you don't mind.

Edited by HeavensTerror
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Dirty Fighting has no burst? But I'm the one that doesn't know what I'm talking about. Try a sab charge/aim shot/wounding shots. DF can do as much burst if not more then SS.

 

I don't care you're valor 80 blah blah blah. I'm valor 90 full WH Aug (including Elite WH), but you don't see me throwing it around in peoples faces, but I really don't care. You are only gimping yourself if you play SS in PvP. You said it yourself you play MM exclusively, so you are biased. Have fun with your garbage spec.

 

I dont think you know what bust damage is, that is the amount of dmg potential in a single shot or the amount of dmg in a short amount of time.

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I dont think you know what bust damage is, that is the amount of dmg potential in a single shot or the amount of dmg in a short amount of time.

 

You do understand that the combo mentioned earlier will bring down most players to 30% hp ? That is not burst?

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You do understand that the combo mentioned earlier will bring down most players to 30% hp ? That is not burst?

 

Yes it's burst ofc.

Burst dps is not necessary XXXX damage in 1 single shot rather usually refering to ones ability to deal a large amount of damage in a short frame of time.

 

e.g

Why people say Tankasins are "bursty", properly specced and WH geared they can open you up with a energized shock with recklessness for 5k, chain shock procs will add about 2500, then followed by a 3 stack Force Lightning that ticks for 2200 damage per second over 4 ticks over 3 seconds. That's a tank "bursting" you for 16000 damage in 4.5 second (or 3 GCD). Very very great burst. The biggest hit is 5k which is not really that great, but they still did 16000 damage in 4.5 seconds so its indeed burst.

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You can throw all the numbers at me I don't care. Clown Post

 

There isn't any reason to talk to you any more. You obviously didn't read what I wrote earlier when I covered that. At the point where you say that the numbers don't matter, you lose what little credibility you have left.

 

Good day sir.

Edited by BeatdownPatrol
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And my only complaint for VG/PT and Juggernaught/Guardians is simpy a tank class should not be doing 5-7k hits on me and still be hard as hell to kill. If they are going to be a have the defense of tank than lower their dmg if they are going to do the dmg of a dps then lower their defense. Right now it takes too long to try to kill them as a class that is supposed to be a dps class.

 

Not this nonsense again!

 

Focus Guardians/Rage Juggernauts are not tanks. Look at that effing Rage/Focus tree in a skill calculator. They have zero damage reduction talents, zero mitigation talents. Heavy armour provides negligible advantages compared to medium armour. They have one defensive cooldown, on a 3-min CD. Guardian/Juggernaut TANKS, actual tanks, will NEVER hit you for 5-7k unless you're a fluffy little teddy bear accidentally wandering into the Pit.

 

Assault Vanguards aren't tanks either. They have on defensive cooldown; they have almost zero mitigation or damage reduction talents; they don't even have Leap as an escape tool. Again, actual Vanguard tanks will never do 5-7k hits on you.

 

TL; DR: Lolsmashers no be tanky-tanky. They be squishy lil' deeps. They be squashed like little bugs if snipy Sniper snipes them good.

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You can throw all the numbers at me I don't care. SS/MM is the weakest spec in PvP hands down. The minute anyone puts up any type of CD your effectiveness goes down, and lets not even talk about tanks or anything with a bit of defense. SS is easy to shut down.

 

I'd love to see some of your gameplay if you don't mind.

 

Incorrect. It's all down to enemy group composition and how one plays their sniper. You're just arrogant. Deflate your ego. Both specs are viable, they just do different things. Stop worshipping DF cause its the spec you may favour. It's ok to favour it, its not ok to say the rest are garbage because of your favourism.

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I've tried DF, Sab, Sab/DF hybrid, SS, and a mix of a lot of ancillary talents mixing with 31 points in a given tree. I have tried a lot of specs.

 

That being said, I love DF. It is awesome. I think it is really the most fun when I meet another Gunslinger or Sniper that is specced SS/MM lol. DoT them up and LoS ftw lol.

 

But I do prefer SS more. I like the feel. Things die so fast that I don't get a lot of chances to do a bunch of damage, but it is really interesting.

 

I will say that almost the exact opening burst rotation that you said,

Sab Charge -> Aimed Shot -> Wounding Shots

which takes (1.5+2.5+3 = 7 seconds) can be replaced with the SS rotation

Sab Charge -> Instant Charged Burst (with Smuggler's Luck) -> Aimed Shot (1.5 sec induction) -> Trickshot

 

This rotation will take less time (1.5+1.5+1.5+1.5 = 6 seconds), and will do more damage, as Aimed Shot is now ignoring 20% of armor, does a bunch more damage when it crits, and Trickshot is probably more powerful than Wounding Shots (at least if Wounding Shots doesn't have the bleeds going already, which is not included in the burst damage rotation). I will have to check on the Trickshot > Wounding Shots (minus bleeds), but the rest is true.

 

Oh yeah, and 3/4 of the attacks I just said are instant-cast.

 

So I would say that SS has more burst. DF is fantastic for wearing down healers and long fights where you have a chance to ramp up your damage. It is absolutely frightening the numbers I have seen put out by DF, but for fast kills, SS is better, and that is what I prefer.

 

As an interesting note, I really like Saboteur more than both of those, because I like living longer and Incendiary Grenade makes my brain happy somewhere deep inside, but it is not as useful in PUGs to me.

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I will say that almost the exact opening burst rotation that you said,

Sab Charge -> Aimed Shot -> Wounding Shots

which takes (1.5+2.5+3 = 7 seconds) can be replaced with the SS rotation

Sab Charge -> Instant Charged Burst (with Smuggler's Luck) -> Aimed Shot (1.5 sec induction) -> Trickshot

 

This rotation will take less time (1.5+1.5+1.5+1.5 = 6 seconds)....

 

Hello Galbar,

 

I think you we're responding to me.

 

You are correct, your rotation takes less time overall, BUT...my rotation front-loads that extra second BEFORE the target is damaged. To the person you are targeting, they have no idea that the Explosive Probe is on them and won't know until your first shot hits and activates it. The first shot will be my Ambush, which is where the extra second comes from since I don't get time reduction bonus. However, at the moment the target takes damage, every attack follows through as fast as the GCDs can cycle. So from the target's perspective, they lose that 1.5 seconds of reaction time after realizing that they are taking damage, which is huge.

 

In a straight 1v1 fight, which is an engagement a MM Sniper should try hard to avoid, I agree that your rotation is more optimal and I do use an altered variation of it (Probe>Snapshot Snipe>Followthrough>Ambush>Snapshot Snipe>Followthrough). But in a multi-player scrum, where you have a melee tanking/DPSing for you while you are at max range, by the time the target has time to say, "Oh Shizzle!!!"...they are in the respawn zone.

Edited by BeatdownPatrol
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Fair enough, that is why it is always good to use Sabotage Charge first, I agree.

 

Even if it does give away what I am doing with my Charged Burst (and that is probably not a HUGE bit of damage), the fact is SS Aimed Shot is better than DF Aimed Shot, due to the buffs in the SS tree. Then factor in that even with the same amount of time, I get in a Charged Burst and a Trickshot, vs. just Wounding Shots with no bleeds. That is a clear advantage. Plus, even if the DF rotation gets them down to 30%, SS Quickdraw does more damage than DF Quickdraw. Again, a clear win for the bursty-ness of SS.

 

Like I said, DF has its uses, but SS is the clear winner in burst damage. It's not that DF can't burst. It is just not its primary purpose.

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Like I said, DF has its uses, but SS is the clear winner in burst damage. It's not that DF can't burst. It is just not its primary purpose.

 

Agreed. DF/Lethality own high Defense/Shield reliant classes, including SS/MM Snipers. In close proximity, I will lose to an equally skilled DF and I know that. Conversely, an equally skilled DF will lose to me if I can keep them outside 10 meters. Interestingly, DF/Leth's need to get within 10 meters of their target is what makes them well suited to taking on melee types, however it did not fit my desired play style.

 

DF/Leth does do burst, but it takes a fair degree of front loading the target with DoTs. Once the target it DoT'd up, then yea...it bursts fairly well.

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