I assume the reason why ravage is not included in the list is, because the ability is not a single hit but rather 3 hits. Knowing BW that would most likely mean, that every single hit of ravage would use up a stack. Probably the same reason why ataru-form hits are not included either.

I'm not saying that's ok or even a good thing, just a possible reason.

I do agree on the 3 rather than 2 stacks. The change like it was presented looks like an awfully huge nerf to me.

 

Lazy development does seem to be a possible reason, you may have a point here. :/

 

Does someone have made the calculation to know how 2 stack will decrease the dps done ? I suspect it may be more than intended, but I may be wrong. ^^'

I am glad about this change, I was never able to use the art of "clipping" and enver understood why you had to undergo such a process to get high numbers with this spec. Now its "as its supposed to be"

i initially thought you were some sm player; but i know you pvp and do nim stuff.

even fury guide for pvp rep side. So your words come strange

cause spec is difficult and its not right that a spec as easy as fury to do more dps than a hard spec like carnage.

Edited October 30, 2017 by InvalidTag

I am glad about this change, I was never able to use the art of "clipping" and enver understood why you had to undergo such a process to get high numbers with this spec. Now its "as its supposed to be" and I like it that way to be honest!

 

Sigh...

Currently you can use 6 abilities per ferocity cycle without clipping, 7 if you clip.

With the changes this number goes down to 4.Additionally, ataru hits won't benefit from it anymore.

How you and others fail to see that this is a huge dps loss is beyond me.

Besides, sustained is not the issue. Fury and Anni must have better sustained than carnage and they actually do as we speak. It's close but they do, even with clipping involved.

The issue is that after the changes, carnage will have worse burst than fury and that will make the spec obsolete.

If they really want to get rid of clipping then stacks should be 3 and include ravage.

Anything less than that will be an overnerf.

i initially thought you were some sm player; but i know you pvp and do nim stuff.

even fury guide for pvp rep side. So your words come strange

cause spec is difficult and its not right that a spec as easy as fury to do more dps than a hard spec like carnage.

 

Well thank you for that "SM player"

 

Anyway, Combat wanst hard, its just wasnt my thing. Im old fashioned, for me a spec is nice when you have a fixed rotation and keep on repeating it. However, many of the players do not like that, they like complex specs, which can be played several times and that have this special thing. Fury/Concentration has a fixed rotation, thats why I always loved it. Watchman was about keeping up your dots, which I also liked, but Combat.....

 

In the past you could even use one dot from Watchman (which was later changed) so the spec was really interesting in this sence for the people, but not for me, the current change is something I welcome.

Sigh...

Currently you can use 6 abilities per ferocity cycle without clipping, 7 if you clip.

With the changes this number goes down to 4.Additionally, ataru hits won't benefit from it anymore.

How you and others fail to see that this is a huge dps loss is beyond me.

Besides, sustained is not the issue. Fury and Anni must have better sustained than carnage and they actually do as we speak. It's close but they do, even with clipping involved.

The issue is that after the changes, carnage will have worse burst than fury and that will make the spec obsolete.

If they really want to get rid of clipping then stacks should be 3 and include ravage.

Anything less than that will be an overnerf.

 

Oh yeah, Im sorry, I dunno why but from reading all the comments I got the impression that you get 1 stack when you use Berserk/Zen. Yes, without that, by having only 2 stacks, its a dps loss, true. Yet the system and idea is not bad.

Lazy development does seem to be a possible reason, you may have a point here. :/

 

Does someone have made the calculation to know how 2 stack will decrease the dps done ? I suspect it may be more than intended, but I may be wrong. ^^'

According to radley-walters it's around 800 dps loss

According to radley-walters it's around 800 dps loss

 

800 does seem strange. I was expecting a bit more, but still it's a loss as big as the one for Deception.

I just hope that carnage players will be heard and that a third stack will be added under berserk :/

Edited October 30, 2017 by supertimtaf

I am glad about this change, I was never able to use the art of "clipping" and enver understood why you had to undergo such a process to get high numbers with this spec. Now its "as its supposed to be" and I like it that way to be honest!

translation: I am actually not good enough to master a not-even-hard mechanic that defines an iconic spec so bioware needs to ruin it for everyone who can master that not-even-hard mechanic :rolleyes::rolleyes:

 

did I mention that clipping isn't hard?

 

the spec will be bad AND braindead, I hope you're happy

Edited October 30, 2017 by yellow_

The 800 dps is based on missing 1 DST, Massacre, and Ravage from every 2 Ferocity windows (and Ataru Form strikes). So it assumes that every Ferocity window contains only the hardest hitting abilities (DB, VT, Gore) and that doing so doesn't change the rotation in a meaningful way. In reality, VT floats mean that this will not always be possible, so the actual dps loss will likely be a little more than 800 dps. It may be possible that someone discovers an entirely new rotation involving something like Ravage on CD or Gore on CD, but because of the resource restraints on carnage, I don't imagine it would be a dps increase, due to having to delay Ferocity. The nerf could also be slightly larger than the 800 dps depending on how exactly it's implemented. If the stacks only affect the main hits of Gore and Massacre, and not their secondary hits, it would be about another 100 dps loss.

 

Here's what I've calculated for different stack options:

3/3: ~300 dps loss (losing out on only Ataru strikes and DST in Ferocity)

2/3: ~500 dps loss (losing out on Ataru strikes, DST, and Massacre in Ferocity)

2/2: >800 dps loss (losing out on Ataru strieks, DST, Ravage, and Massacre in Ferocity)

 

In terms of feel, both 2/3 and 3/3 would be far better than the currently proposed 2/2. 3/3 would still be much better than 2/3 however, as the rotation wouldn't break every time VT floats.

Edited October 30, 2017 by Machricar

Here is my final assessment to why this is a terrible decision. In my honest opinion, nerfs are completely essential within a game to allow for other classes to have opportunities to shine, or another term be "the flavor of the month." There will never be a complete balance where developers can make everyone satisfied with how each class is performing, but when changes are made based off pure data and a lack of thorough community involvement or simply testing it out thoroughly themselves before making the final changes, especially on a classes essential abilities, there's something wrong there.

 

For whats going to happen to the listed class ability makes zero sense. It wasn't broken, nor was it something only 1% of players could achieve. I mentioned this destroying creativity with the class by reducing "affected" abilities within that short window, and I stand by that. Combat/Carnage deserves to be one of the top DPS, As its very unforgiving when you mess up on your rotation and provides no support towards self preservation other than the general CD's versus the other specs.

 

I combat team for this game needs to seriously assess their decisions more thoroughly.

I stand by that. Combat/Carnage deserves to be one of the top DPS.

 

According to Bioware it doesn't deserve to be one of the top DPS specs. In fact, they want it to be on par with Madness, Deception, IO, AP, Concealment, Engineering and Rage. And knowing that the spec is performing way ahead of it's peer group thanks to being able to use 3-4 abilities within a Precision window (which by their own admission wasn't the plan...it is strange tbh, as if they've forgotten about the alacrity bonus), I wouldn't expect much.

The 800 dps is based on missing 1 DST, Massacre, and Ravage from every 2 Ferocity windows (and Ataru Form strikes). So it assumes that every Ferocity window contains only the hardest hitting abilities (DB, VT, Gore) and that doing so doesn't change the rotation in a meaningful way. In reality, VT floats mean that this will not always be possible, so the actual dps loss will likely be a little more than 800 dps. It may be possible that someone discovers an entirely new rotation involving something like Ravage on CD or Gore on CD, but because of the resource restraints on carnage, I don't imagine it would be a dps increase, due to having to delay Ferocity. The nerf could also be slightly larger than the 800 dps depending on how exactly it's implemented. If the stacks only affect the main hits of Gore and Massacre, and not their secondary hits, it would be about another 100 dps loss.

 

Here's what I've calculated for different stack options:

3/3: ~300 dps loss (losing out on only Ataru strikes and DST in Ferocity)

2/3: ~500 dps loss (losing out on Ataru strikes, DST, and Massacre in Ferocity)

2/2: >800 dps loss (losing out on Ataru strieks, DST, Ravage, and Massacre in Ferocity)

 

In terms of feel, both 2/3 and 3/3 would be far better than the currently proposed 2/2. 3/3 would still be much better than 2/3 however, as the rotation wouldn't break every time VT floats.

 

Thanks for the insight, it does seem logical when you look at it like that

You mentionned ressources restraints for Carnage, do anyone knows if the fact that gore doesn't give back one point of rage when used was intended or not ? Every other ability for Carnage gives back a point of rage, why not Gore ?

Unfortunately it seems BW has a hard time changing a spec to fit their goals for it without first nerfing it. That's what's going to happen to Combat/Carnage. They will implement this change, which will lower damage by reducing the amount of abilities that can benefit from Ferocity/Precision. Hopefully sooner than later they will realize the magnitude of the nerf and boost the damage of some abilities or add another stack of Ferocity/Precision or both.

please just revert the change

 

if not:

1) ataru form hits from ferocity boosted abilities should also get the armor pen

2) sweeping slash and ravage should also be boostable

3) either you should just get 3 stacks for each ferocity or activating the ability during beserk should grant 3

 

This, /sign. This is not an incoming nerf, it's a funeral.

Come 5.6, combat/carnage sents & mara's will face a determinental nerf to their class ability Precision/Ferocity that will limit "only" certain abilities affected by precision/ferocity, our most vital asset for achieving damage, by putting 10 sec stacks on it, and negating other abilities from being used within precisions/ferocity's window of damage however we choose. This is another change that will limit creativity in how a class can be played.

 

The main reasoning behind this is that people who suffer from server lag versus others with better connection are at a constant disadvantage and thus creates a gap between those who can hit the "clip" versus those who cannot. this is flawed logic. I run this game at 10-15 FPS and no problem can hit the "clip" without fail, not because My computer performance, but because I practice at the class and became good with it, like anyone who tries. But enough about me, If ever there is a sliver of chance the developers reconsider this decision, post something in accordance to the information you've gathered.

 

Up vote or /sign this please!

 

Thank you my Fellow Combat/Carnage Sentinels and Marauders - may your alacrity stay High!

 

Agreed. This is a nerf in disguise. If anything ferocity needs to last for more seconds, and not 2 charges to be used exclusively with certain abilities.

I completely agree with the OP. There is absolutely no reason for this change other than closing the gap between new players and practiced ones. Citing server lag is a smoke screen. One could just as easily say that this is punishing players who can execute throw clipping. This will completely gut carnage and ruin the flow of the rotation that people who know it have come to love.

 

I used the term "practiced players" for a reason, because I don't think myself or others who can do it are just gods far and above those who can't. It isn't hard to learn. If you park yourself in front of a dummy for any length of time I believe anyone can learn how to land 4 GCDs inside a berserked/zen ferocity/precision window in no time.

 

I'd argue that the primary component to carnage/combat is rage/focus management. Ensuring that you always have enough for each ferocity window and getting 30 fury/centering stacks when you need them.

 

Instead of disrupting the orchestra, the masterpiece, that is this spec,just increase the duration of ferocity as others have mentioned. It will be really sad if these changes go through in any manner close to their current form. People who main carnage know that it's a brilliant piece of class design.

Edited November 2, 2017 by lozan

Okay so first I want to point out prior to the change we posses the ability to get 4/3 attacks inside a Zen/non-Zen window. You CAN use clipping to do this, however it is not NEEDED.

 

Next, most ofbthe more conservitive estimates hover around an 800 DPS loss, but I personally think its going to be higher then that. Proprobably close to 1000 due to various things.

 

Keep in mind that we do not know how the cool down will work I.E.will the skill begin the cooldown the time of use or will the cool down start after you consume both stacks.

Edited November 2, 2017 by HanSollo

You all realise that Combat is supposed to have lower sustained dps than both Watchman and Concentration, right? With the current Precision window it's not the case and tbh I'm not surprised that BW decided to make this change, neither should any of you.

I'm personally only surprised by Concentration not getting a dps decrease.

 

Yes we are also supposed to have highers burst. After they make this change our burst will drop below Watchman's.

Edited November 2, 2017 by HanSollo

Zen should absolutely add a third stack, I hope they com to their senses other wise this thing is gutted.

 

Actually overall balance of the spec should look like this: 2 stacks default with the use of zen adding third stack and adding a mild crit damage multiplier of say +5% on to of the three stacks.

I think the new stack based nature is not bad, it definitely makes the spec a lot less susceptible to getting stunned or pushed at the bad time to completely avoid its burst window.

 

That said Berserk Should add another stack, and Ravage should be added to the affected abilities. That way you'd have Ravage, Gore, Devastating Blast in one window and Vicious Throw, Devastating Blast in the other.

 

Will dps go down, yes it will, but if Bioware doesn't remove clipping, then they will have to balance around clipping, which means dps will go down as well, as Carnage is putting out dps quite beyond what it should be doing. However I have no idea how much this change will reduce overall dps, thus some additional changes might be needed, like adjusting the damage from Massacre and/or Ataru form strikes to bring its dps to around the same numbers as Deception, AP and the like.

You all realise that Combat is supposed to have lower sustained dps than both Watchman and Concentration, right? With the current Precision window it's not the case and tbh I'm not surprised that BW decided to make this change, neither should any of you.

I'm personally only surprised by Concentration not getting a dps decrease.

I really couldn't care less about sustained dps, the only thing that REALLY matters is overall effective damage. There are few fights in this game that actually require a spec with lower overall damage to be benched in favor of a bursty spec with really good target-swapping capabilities. In the case of Sentinel, Concentration and Combat's burst are close with combat winning the day by having burst windows more frequently. If you butt f**k Combat's burst, there will be no reason to use it over concentration.

Machricar, could you comment what dps loss and rotation changes are about to happen with recent dev tweaks?

While I appreciate that BW reverted the limitation on abilities, carnage burst has still been cut in half. Going from 4 abilities per ferocity use to 2 is a huge nerf to PVP burst and sustained DPS in PVE. Surely more stacks will be granted or a buff to our heavy hitters will ensue. The performance will not be there if it goes live as is.

While I appreciate that BW reverted the limitation on abilities, carnage burst has still been cut in half. Going from 4 abilities per ferocity use to 2 is a huge nerf to PVP burst and sustained DPS in PVE. Surely more stacks will be granted or a buff to our heavy hitters will ensue. The performance will not be there if it goes live as is.

 

It's beyond doubt that we should at least get a buff to abilities like DB or Gore to make up for the change. Conceptually I like it, as it doesn't punish us as much for getting CC'd in the middle of a Ferocity window, although in practice getting CC'd during that window doesn't really happen that often and I can see why it would upset people. I think it makes the class a little more forgiving, which I like, but we will need to see our numbers bumped a little bit to compensate for the 800-1k nerf in DPS.

Alright well im certainly no carnage aficionado, but i was looking at ferocity now and what it will be post 5.6. So the 2 stacks will last 10 seconds. The current cooldown of ferocity is like 11.7 seconds with zero alacrity, and you can get it close to 10 secs with target alacrity. As i understand ferocity doesnt respect the global cooldown so i guess i would try to create a rotation that started with ferocity and used abilities that didnt use the stacks (like ravage or saber throw to proc gore) until ferocity was close to or on cooldown, use the first two stacks on gore and massacre, then use ferocity again, maybe fit in another non ferocity ability if ferocity still needs a second to cooldown, use proc'd devastating blast and vicious throw. All of this is just an inexperienced theory and its clear to me that the current rotation suggested by dulfy will be in need of complete overhaul, but perhaps this can be worked around to to ease the transgression into the new "non-clipping" era. The idea is you'd keep a sustainable 4 hit ferocity burst combo without precise timing. If my idea works it would mean that, if the devs decided to make ferocity stack to 3 in the future, you would have a 6 attack ferocity combo, 2 or 3 of which would be massacre since it doesnt have a cooldown<and that sounds like what a kid once called "bonkersburst" Edited November 21, 2017 by --Dario--