If their metrics were that bulletproof, class balance would have been perfect at launch and no nerfs would have been required in subsequent patches.

Perfect balance is impossible. I think the point is forum posts draw attention to a subject, it does not make a bullet proof case for change.

Metrics will drive changes in any competent business.

Only tanking tree gets leap. If they have leap, they don't have 8 sec immunity. If they have immunity, they're no longer tanks just a melee in heavy armor. They don't have any oh snap cds. If they're tank spec, their dmg sux. No comparison between Assassins and Vanguards in their tank specs. NONE...

You are a bad vanguard.

Ironfist spec does excellent damage and is a "tank" if you know how to gear.

Perfect balance is impossible. I think the point is forum posts draw attention to a subject, it does not make a bullet proof case for change.

 

Metrics will drive changes in any competent business.

I never said otherwise; merely pointing out that metrics are not magic.

"They have numbers!" is, by itself, an absurd argument and begs a whole series of questions, number one of which is "What are they trying to achieve?"

Based on some of these posts, one would think BW is pioneering the use of math in decision making.

There's a huge difference between DPS in PVE and DPS in PVP. Something can be weak in PVE and do incredible damage in PVP.

 

For example, In World of Warcraft, an Arms Warrior was one of the worse DPS specs in PVE. They were also one of the best DPS specs in PVP.

 

You can't just "parse combat logs" and go, okay well so and so is fine in PVP because this combat log I tested on a raid boss says so!

Parsing combat logs is certainly more relevant than looking at a few cherry picked screenshots. Arms Warriors were strong in WoW because of the amount of damage they could spike in a short time and because of the amount of charges they have. Contrary to nerfherder belief, a tank Shadow doesn't have great spike damage (compared to many Damage specs) and has only a single 2 second sprint rather than multiple charges. A Sentinel is the closest thing to an Arms Warrior.

The closest comparison I can make to a WoW class for a Shadow would be a Bear specced Feral Druid (which is probably why I like my Shadow so much, since I played Feral in WoW). It's not really a great one-to-one comparison based on abilities (bears are more like warriors, and tank Shadows can't dps like cats) but the play style feels similar.

Some random points that people seem to bring up all the time...

1. Tank survivality. Nobody focus fire on a tank especially one is that is healed for any consistent period of time unless he's the Huttball carrier. In this case either he's totally unkillable (if enough healers are on him), or that he still dies instantly being focus fired by 6 guys. Take any tank and have him walk with the ball from mid field to the endzone, they either die after the first 10 seconds or not die at all. If there's supposed to be a difference in survivalit it's irrelevent. In real Huttball games, PT/Jugg create separation with thier leap abilities to avoid getting focus fired by 6 guys at the same time. This is an advantage they have over Assassins but it has nothing to do with the class's ability to absorb damage. An Assassin Force Speed across a fire pit will likely shake off all his pursuers too, and again this isn't a mitigation issue at all.

2. Tanks are useful by themselves in PvP even without damage. Although Guard is somewhat overrated, it's obviously a very crucial part of team gameplay. All tanks in general have very high utilty to make up for their lack of damage.

However, the Assassin also does full damage as a tank. He's also the best healer in the game that isn't healer speced, tied with Marauder. Yes he can only heal himself but like the Marauder he does this healing with no impact to his DPS game. He's even better than the healer archtype classes who are speced for DPS. If you're a Sor/Op/Merc speced for DPS, each point of healing you do costs you at least 1 point of damage, usually a lot more since your ability to do damage is generally much better than your ability to heal. You'll see Marauder/Darkness beat the healing output of any DPS speced 'healer' classes in WZ quite comfortably, simply because trying to heal in any meaningful numbers severely gimps any kind of DPS spec for those classes.

Finally, some of those comparison is just ridiculous, like comparing AE snare ability of Jugg versus Assassin. Wither, if it only build a stack of HD and hits only a single target, is still a good rotation move (better DPF than Thrash). Therefore you can consider the AE damage + AE snare + AE debuff aspect of it to be totally free because you'd use it as a single target Thrash even if it did none of that. Therefore, the side effects on Thrash can be considered free.

On the other hand, an AE snare fromo a Jugg uses 2 rage (can be talented to 1), and it also does no damage. It's certainly not a rotation move in any kind of DPS-producing sequence. Its sole purpose is to snare guys around you and yet it's more costly than Wither which snares everyone as a side effect. It's actually the same argument as Force Slow versus Wither. Yes in theory Force Slow is a better slow (50%) but it does no damage, so you're wasting a GCD to just snare someone instead of doing damage. With Wither, you're still doing your maximum damage and snaring the opponent while maintaining that DPS.

Played a match vs. 5 Assassins earlier today.

 

It made obvious just how OP the class/spec is. Even if you had the clear advantage over the middle you couldn't kill the Assassins fast enough to capture a point.

 

Rotating between taking cooldowns combined with their general resilience made them very though targets. And when they did drop low they'd simply vanish to buy their respawn enough time to return.

Stacking 5 of any class is going to be a pain in the butt. Have you ever fought a stack of 5 Sorcerers? One Sorcerer doesn't have any spike damage and isn't hard to kill. Five will melt people so fast your head will spin. How about 5 Tracer spamming BHs? One is easy to kill since you just interrupt the Tracer. But five? Good luck with that.

Only tanking tree gets leap. If they have leap, they don't have 8 sec immunity. If they have immunity, they're no longer tanks just a melee in heavy armor. They don't have any oh snap cds. If they're tank spec, their dmg sux. No comparison between Assassins and Vanguards in their tank specs. NONE...

Thanks for the correction. Like I said, I'm not nearly as familiar with Vanguards as I am with Shadows and Guardians. I didn't realize Hold the Line was a talent and not baseline (which it seems like it should be, to be honest). The point I was making remains with regard to Assassins/Guardians. If Vanguards are lacking in utility, perhaps they could use a buff in that regard to bring them in line with the other two tank classes.

Thanks for the correction. Like I said, I'm not nearly as familiar with Vanguards as I am with Shadows and Guardians. I didn't realize Hold the Line was a talent and not baseline (which it seems like it should be, to be honest). The point I was making remains with regard to Assassins/Guardians. If Vanguards are lacking in utility, perhaps they could use a buff in that regard to bring them in line with the other two tank classes.

None of the tanks are lacking in utility in general. But non Assassin tanks are definitely lacking in damage if they're actually tank speced even while wearing DPS gear. But since tanks do have very high value even withotu their damage, it should be the norm that tanks lack damage, not the exception.

As an aside, 20K protection is what you get when you randomly hit taunt on someone thorughout a match. You can do better if you actually try to get good targets though 50K is generally out of reach without using Guard unless you're in one of those Voidstar fights where nobody died.

As an aside, 20K protection is what you get when you randomly hit taunt on someone thorughout a match. You can do better if you actually try to get good targets though 50K is generally out of reach without using Guard unless you're in one of those Voidstar fights where nobody died.

It should probably also be noted that these are the exact same conditions necessary for a tank to achieve DPS-like total damage numbers.

It should probably also be noted that these are the exact same conditions necessary for a tank to achieve DPS-like total damage numbers.

Even DPS classes don't do 500K in a regular match of Huttball. A good one might do 350K and he'd have to be not touching the ball most of the time. 350K is about the limit of what any DPS can do in a match while making a realistic effort toward winning.

On the other hand getting 50K isn't hard at all in a normal match if you used Guard. Guarding the Huttball carrier is usually worth at least 10K protection each time you do it.

I've had games I put up 50K protection without using Guard but I don't consider those stats meaningful the same way I don't consider 500K+ DPS to be meaningful.

If you take a game of Huttball, if a Marauder does 350K the tank Assassin can do 300K/60K protect, and both will have similar healing numbers. Howeve the 60K protect will generally be much more useful than doing 50K more damage and that's where the imbalance is. In an extended Voidstar brawl you might see a Marauder do 500/0/100 and a tank Assassin do 700/100/100 but those numbers actually don't mean much.

Even DPS classes don't do 500K in a regular match of Huttball. A good one might do 350K and he'd have to be not touching the ball most of the time. 350K is about the limit of what any DPS can do in a match while making a realistic effort toward winning.

 

On the other hand getting 50K isn't hard at all in a normal match if you used Guard. Guarding the Huttball carrier is usually worth at least 10K protection each time you do it.

 

I've had games I put up 50K protection without using Guard but I don't consider those stats meaningful the same way I don't consider 500K+ DPS to be meaningful.

 

If you take a game of Huttball, if a Marauder does 350K the tank Assassin can do 300K/60K protect, and both will have similar healing numbers. Howeve the 60K protect will generally be much more useful than doing 50K more damage and that's where the imbalance is. In an extended Voidstar brawl you might see a Marauder do 500/0/100 and a tank Assassin do 700/100/100 but those numbers actually don't mean much.

While you and I are basically saying the same thing, I don't think I agree that an Assassin tank doing 300k damage in Huttball is being very useful to his team in general.

But I understand it was just an example. : P

If you take a game of Huttball, if a Marauder does 350K the tank Assassin can do 300K/60K protect, and both will have similar healing numbers. Howeve the 60K protect will generally be much more useful than doing 50K more damage and that's where the imbalance is. In an extended Voidstar brawl you might see a Marauder do 500/0/100 and a tank Assassin do 700/100/100 but those numbers actually don't mean much.

Except Marauders targets die a hell of a lot faster.

Also, can we please stop calling Shadow tanks with stalker gear "hybrids?" They are not hybrids. They are tanks in dps gear, because putting tanks in full tank gear is not very useful for PVP. The hybrid 23/0/18 spec died a long time ago.

I have to agree a tank spec in dps gear does not make them a hybrid spec. If bioware learned they failed at making tank stats work in pvp and changed them to be useful you would see alot more run around in their tank gear until they fix tank stats you will continue to see most tanks in dps gear tho

While you and I are basically saying the same thing, I don't think I agree that an Assassin tank doing 300k damage in Huttball is being very useful to his team in general.

 

But I understand it was just an example. : P

In an ideal situation you could get away with less damage for the Assassin, but usually someone has to play defense and/or get the ball back, and both of that activity requires killing people.

Honestly the Marauder shouldn't even have 350K damage in a good team effort either because he should be running the ball at least some of the time.

However, the Assassin also does full damage as a tank.

What do you mean by 'full damage'? I hope you don't mean the same damage as a Damage specced class, because that would be absolutely incorrect. You make thoughtful posts, so I'll ask you (since not a single person has answered this question yet): How much damage do you think a tank should do, as a percentage of a Damage spec. If a Damage class does 100% damage, what percentage should a Tank do?

He's also the best healer in the game that isn't healer speced, tied with Marauder. Yes he can only heal himself but like the Marauder he does this healing with no impact to his DPS game. He's even better than the healer archtype classes who are speced for DPS. If you're a Sor/Op/Merc speced for DPS, each point of healing you do costs you at least 1 point of damage, usually a lot more since your ability to do damage is generally much better than your ability to heal. You'll see Marauder/Darkness beat the healing output of any DPS speced 'healer' classes in WZ quite comfortably, simply because trying to heal in any meaningful numbers severely gimps any kind of DPS spec for those classes.

In the specific circumstance of healing while simultaneously doing damage, yes. But the Damage specs with cast heals can 1) Line of sight or CC an attacker to heal while in combat and 2) throw out a heal on others if it's absolutely needed. So I could just as easily say that Assassins are tied for the worst 'healer' in the game when a ball carrier needs one crucial heal to buy them enough time to throw the ball or score. It all depends on the circumstance.

Self healing is the tool the devs gave to Assassins to make up for their poor (relative to other tanks) DR. It's not much of an advantage when there are healers present, such as on a raid, since the Assassin will be taking greater incoming damage due to the lower DR. In PvP though it can scale very well depending on the circumstance. The longer a fight goes on, the more effective health an Assassin will have because of the heal. So in a duel, it's outstanding. In that case, every 3 buff stacked Force Lightning effectively increases your health pool by 12% if you aren't at max health. However, as more attackers focus on the Assassin the heal gets less and less valuable because the extra damage you're taking due to the lower DR becomes greater than the amount you're healing. In that case, having a higher DR becomes superior because you would have mitigated more damage than the heal would have healed. Where the break point is depends on the amount of incoming damage, as not all Damage dealers are the same.

TLDR: the self heal makes an Assassin very strong 1v1, but the lower DR makes them squishier than other tanks when focused by multiple attackers.

Finally, some of those comparison is just ridiculous, like comparing AE snare ability of Jugg versus Assassin. Wither, if it only build a stack of HD and hits only a single target, is still a good rotation move (better DPF than Thrash). Therefore you can consider the AE damage + AE snare + AE debuff aspect of it to be totally free because you'd use it as a single target Thrash even if it did none of that. Therefore, the side effects on Thrash can be considered free.

 

On the other hand, an AE snare fromo a Jugg uses 2 rage (can be talented to 1), and it also does no damage. It's certainly not a rotation move in any kind of DPS-producing sequence. Its sole purpose is to snare guys around you and yet it's more costly than Wither which snares everyone as a side effect. It's actually the same argument as Force Slow versus Wither. Yes in theory Force Slow is a better slow (50%) but it does no damage, so you're wasting a GCD to just snare someone instead of doing damage. With Wither, you're still doing your maximum damage and snaring the opponent while maintaining that DPS.

Force Slow is inferior to Wither because it's only single target, otherwise it would definitely be worth using for the superior snare. A comparison of Wither and Freezing Force is absolutely valid when comparing the utility of an Assassin and Guardian. When you want to snare a group, Freezing Force does not need a target, is spammable as long as you have the 1 point to spend on it and is a 50% snare rather than a 30% snare. The tradeoff is Wither does ~450 base kinetic damage, has a 7.5 second cooldown, requires a target but the AoE is centered around that target, which can be up to 10m away.

TLDR: the self heal makes an Assassin very strong 1v1, but the lower DR makes them squishier than other tanks when focused by multiple attackers.

Not when you have 20%+ defensive roll... that actually makes you stronger (40%+20%)=60%, that is 7% more than a dps geared tank spec for both other tanks... Numbers are hard bruh.

TLDR: the self heal makes an Assassin very strong 1v1, but the lower DR makes them squishier than other tanks when focused by multiple attackers.

 

Not when you have 20%+ defensive roll... that actually makes you stronger (40%+20%)=60%, that is 7% more than a dps geared tank spec for both other tanks... Numbers are hard bruh.

If you mean the Defense stat then:

- Defense is not added to DR. Defense is checked first, if it fails then Shield is checked and DR is applied.

- Assassins have ~20% more Defense than Vanguards, but it's about the same as Guardians. Vanguards have the highest DR to make up for it.

- Defense and Shield do not apply to Force or Tech attacks, which makes up a large number (if not most) of the attacks in PvP.

The numbers are more complex than you thought, eh brah?

Not when you have 20%+ defensive roll... that actually makes you stronger (40%+20%)=60%, that is 7% more than a dps geared tank spec for both other tanks... Numbers are hard bruh.

You should try to actually be correct when trying to make someone look silly w/ math.

<.<

If you mean the Defense stat then:

 

- Defense is not added to DR. Defense is checked first, if it fails then Shield is checked and DR is applied.

- Assassins have ~20% more Defense than Vanguards, but it's about the same as Guardians. Vanguards have the highest DR to make up for it.

- Defense and Shield do not apply to Force or Tech attacks, which makes up a large number (if not most) of the attacks in PvP.

 

The numbers are more complex than you thought, eh brah?

Their cool down are better than other tanks for PvP. It's not about defense and migrating damage, but more of 5 second Force Shroud and Deflection when being focused. With vanish and juggling those cool down with their self-heal, makes them high survivability with great DPS output.

Funny how this thread reached over 1000 response and people are still trying to defend their class so hard.

You should try to actually be correct when trying to make someone look silly w/ math.

 

<.<

This.

Thanks for the correction. Like I said, I'm not nearly as familiar with Vanguards as I am with Shadows and Guardians. I didn't realize Hold the Line was a talent and not baseline (which it seems like it should be, to be honest). The point I was making remains with regard to Assassins/Guardians. If Vanguards are lacking in utility, perhaps they could use a buff in that regard to bring them in line with the other two tank classes.

It's laughable that you think Guardians/Juggs are in 'line' with Tank Sins/Shadow though.

Funny how this thread reached over 1000 response and people are still trying to defend their class so hard.

You're right, all 1000 responses are just people saying that Shadow/Sins are OP, and 0 of them are people actually arguing back and forth the whole time, so that no actual conclusion has been reached (or ever will be).

BW should hire you for their metrics, since your interpretation of numbers is so accurate and obviously not skewed by bias in any way.

You are a bad vanguard.

 

Ironfist spec does excellent damage and is a "tank" if you know how to gear.

Excellent compared to what? Iron Fist DMG comes from Stockstrike. U'd have been more convincing if u had said Parakeet spec. Post a pic of the highest dmg of a IF vanguard and I'll consider taking u off the baddie list...

Their cool down are better than other tanks for PvP. It's not about defense and migrating damage, but more of 5 second Force Shroud and Deflection when being focused. With vanish and juggling those cool down with their self-heal, makes them high survivability with great DPS output.

Assassins have one defensive cooldown worth talking about. Force Shroud lasts 5 seconds on a tank spec. All Deflection does is add to the Defense stat. Good against lightsabers and Snipers and not a lot of other things. Assassins have the best short term cooldown, but I'd say it's pretty comparable to a Guardian's suite of cooldowns over the long term. Let's not lose sight of the fact that 5 seconds is only 3 global cooldowns.

So, care to put a number to 'great DPS'?

It's laughable that you think Guardians/Juggs are in 'line' with Tank Sins/Shadow though.

In utility and defense? It's laughable that you think they aren't. I haven't seen the DPS numbers on Guardians yet, so the jury is still out on that. The buffs to Master Strike and the 10m range execute will certainly be nice, though.