The one thing to note, though, (and forgive me, I cannot remember my source) is that I recall reading somewhere that the Republic never actually falls from the date of its creation until the events of Episode III.

Well no. We know that the Empire ultimately loses. But there's about 3000 years between the time frame of TOR up until the events of the movies. That's plenty of time for the war to seesaw back and forth, rather than just "The Republic always wins everything forever!"

Forgive me, I haven't completed any of the class story lines yet, but just wanted to point out, that for every battle, there are losses on both sides. I don't know the method used by the Republic to defeat the Empire at Corellia, but I would imagine that they suffered heavy losses as well to take out 10% of the Empire's.

Not really. Heavy spoilers ahead.

As I see the Empire is doomed and I'll not drop a tear because of it.

Well no. We know that the Empire ultimately loses. But there's about 3000 years between the time frame of TOR up until the events of the movies. That's plenty of time for the war to seesaw back and forth, rather than just "The Republic always wins everything forever!"

Right... which I didn't say anything about. I merely said that the Republic is never truly defeated or made into a rag-tag group prior to Ep III.

Right... which I didn't say anything about. I merely said that the Republic is never truly defeated or made into a rag-tag group prior to Ep III.

Right...but the thread is about whether the Empire has all ready lost the war.

Not really. Heavy spoilers ahead.

 

 

 

 

First of all the entire Corellia campaign was the scheme of a secret organization named Star Cabal (Imperial Agent storyline). They hoped the Republic and Imperial army will kill each other. However there was a numberous thing they didn't calculate:

 

1., Havoc Squad: General Garza is the damn best military leader of the Republic and the Trooper has the most dangerous squad. The Trooper eliminates Garza's counterpart in the Imperial army.

2., The Star Cabal crushes Imperial Intelligence which is a huge mistake I think - there is no force who could oppose SIS. Well Imperial Intelligence could be created again but this is a time consuming process. Intelligence lost his best analylists, the agents are scattered around the Imperial military, etc.

3., Smuggler kills another important Imperial military leader. Empire also loses his allies within the underworld.

4., Sorcerer kills another Dark Council member; however I think this is better to the Empire because (s)he is a more powerful and capable Darth.

5., Jedi Knight kills the Emperor's Voice. OK, this is a very costly victory to the Republic military in manpower - but the backbone of the fleet and the best military leaders (including Garza or the Jedi Knight itself) are intact.

6., The Bounty Hunter either kills the Chancellor or spare him the Empire loses: Suresh is worst to the Empire.

7. Jedi Consular brings a whole new alliance to the Republic. Nobody calculates with his new troops; his army clearly tips the balance. It is a powerful new reinforcement to the Republic. JC also kills the First Children - combined with JK killing the Emperor's Voice this is a severe wound to the Empire.

 

Plus: in the half of the Imperial storylines we don't fight with the Republic. For example my assasin killed more Sith then Jedi; the entire first chapter of the agent is about hunting down Imperial terrorists. Bounty Hunter kills some Republics but half of his bounties are third party targets. I didn't finished the Sith Warrior storyline yet but as I know the final fight is also Imperial vs. Imperial.

 

 

 

 

As I see the Empire is doomed and I'll not drop a tear because of it.

 

about point 7 - Empire has a new aliance too. They are now allied with Killik hives all over the galaxy. And it is said in the story that there are billions of them with a lot of power in case they would join the war.

Hmm, that's an interesting point, but I'm not sure we'd see them actually do anything with it, given that it only comes up as part of a specific companions conversation line if you raise affection.

So anyone who hasn't played an IA and run around with brosef Vector would kind of be like

Hmm, that's an interesting point, but I'm not sure we'd see them actually do anything with it, given that it only comes up as part of a specific companions conversation line if you raise affection.

 

So anyone who hasn't played an IA and run around with brosef Vector would kind of be like

Err, why does the Empire suddenly have armies of bugs running around?

The fact that it's only side storyline doesn't mean it's less important. I take that as a huge boost for the Empire :-)

Hmm, that's an interesting point, but I'm not sure we'd see them actually do anything with it, given that it only comes up as part of a specific companions conversation line if you raise affection.

 

So anyone who hasn't played an IA and run around with brosef Vector would kind of be like

Err, why does the Empire suddenly have armies of bugs running around?

Why is the Emperor dead?

What happened to the old Chancellor?

etc.

How are these any different?

I do have a question though; is Sith fratricide really all that prevalent through the run of the mill? The Dark Council may have overall command, but do they actually exercise it? The ones who did specifically intrude (and I think it was Darth Jadus who was the primary one) were executed or imprisoned, but other than these cases, it seems rather isolationist.

Even if Wrath or Nox was secretly plotting against their master (...), for most of the storyline they seemed eager to tow the party line; aka, that of victory. As long as the master retains the respect of their apprentice, the chain is effectively formalized. Even in the case of a break, it seems rare that it would involve the wholesale slaughter of their assets (the Empire's assets) with the exception of Darth Jadus and Thanaton's. The losses of Darth Baras' as another example is, if memory serves, fairly light, because Darth Baras' assets are primarily intelligence assets.

Darth Thanaton may have called for the complete destruction of Darth Zash's assets following her death, but due to the responses of at the end of the SI storyline, it seemed unlikely to have happened, and Thanaton seemed to have expelled the majority of his resources combating the threat of Nox.

Just wait until makeb comes out trust me empire players will be satisfied.

I hope so.

But as for is the Empire losing? It's the ebb and flow of war.

When the war started, the Republic was NOT in a good place. Coruscant was still in pieces, with whole sectors on the verge of being abandoned or seceding outright. Separatist movements were erupting all over the galaxy, even on stalwart Republic worlds like Ord Mantel. Alderraan had withdrawn from the Republic, and fallen to a tyrant, who was a former Republic war hero. The Republic was desperately focusing on Taris because they needed a victory, even if it was a 300 year late symbolic one.

The Empire, on the other hand, was consolidating power, playing games with the Republic, and trying to goad them back into a war they were unprepared for. They held Balmorra, they were courting the Hutts, things were going their way.

In the beginning, the Empire came out strong. Corellia fell (Well before the players get there). The Hutts stuck to their neutrality, but that was alright. Balmorra was further secured. Taris and all it's symbolism was crushed in the Republic's faces. And Empire-backed House Thul was starting to look good for the throne due to their superior military, and their acceptance of the burden of managing the Killiks.

But then the Republic came back strong. The Empire lost Balmorra, which was a huge blow. Alderaan leaned more towards the Organas. Corellia was lost. Their attempts to cut off the Republic from its allies failed.

But the Republic took hits too. Belsavis was a HUGE blow. A PR nightmare, the sudden release of some of the worst destructive elements the Republic had ever faced, all at once, and the Imperials getting their claws into a whole pile of Rakatta tech. The Republic lost it's only real safe Force-user storage facility.

Hoth, Voss and Ilum I think were indications of a stalemate. The initial power ploys had been exhausted, the Empire was on the defensive now, but the Republic was too shaky to push into Imperial territory (Still got Separatists, Hutts, Crime Syndicates etc to deal with, and they seem to see the Republic as a WAY better target than the Imps). Superweapons on both sides had been built, tested, blown up and/or countered, and now they're back to the drawing board to try again.

This is all very good, but the Empire winning was despite player agency. It was all in yesteryear before our characters came to the fore. I would hope that in Rothc, meaningful strides occur pro-Empire for the sake of narrative.

It's all very well if Empire players initially take Corellia, but to paraphrase my Wrath when informed that Republic has taken it back, 'da***?'

Spoilers from RotHC that pretty much put an end to the debate of whether or not the Empire is loosing:

So the question is no longer is the Empire losing. It is, badly. The question is, how can it bounce back? My money is on some kind of...Death Machine, or a new Star in the Empire's army...Death...Star, hmmm. I know: a Demise Sphere !

Spoilers from RotHC that pretty much put an end to the debate of whether or not the Empire is loosing:

 

 

Darth Marr, the Supreme Commander of the Military Sphere approaches you and says that the Empire will lose the war within a year. He then proceeds to lead a stalling and scorched earth campaign, sacrificing his own forces as they retreat from the Core Worlds to buy you time to finish the Makeb plotline.

 

 

So the question is no longer is the Empire losing. It is, badly. The question is, how can it bounce back? My money is on some kind of...Death Machine, or a new Star in the Empire's army...Death...Star, hmmm. I know: a Demise Sphere !

Well...looks like I'll be dropping TOR then. Maybe go back to EVE or wait for Wildstar.. They should have probably put a disclaimer at the beginning, "Even though we offer two factions, the Empire exists only to give the Republic something to shoot at. "

That or the culmination of Makeb better be the Empire revealing some new weapon/strategy that sets the Republic back on the defensive.

Well...looks like I'll be dropping TOR then. Maybe go back to EVE or wait for Wildstar.. They should have probably put a disclaimer at the beginning, "Even though we offer two factions, the Empire exists only to give the Republic something to shoot at. "

 

That or the culmination of Makeb better be the Empire revealing some new weapon/strategy that sets the Republic back on the defensive.

Trust me on this right now I watched the whole empire questline with makeb you will be happy by the end of it.

Trust me I was pissed the empire is losing I watched the questline I am now blown away with what the empire can now do in the future.

1: You can bring back intelligence.

2:each of my characters, alone, has atleast an army's worth of republic kills under his belt.

3: Malgus may be retconned back to life later, We never saw a body, and that douchebag from the SW storyline seemed to handle his 3rd degree burns fine.

Well...looks like I'll be dropping TOR then. Maybe go back to EVE or wait for Wildstar.. They should have probably put a disclaimer at the beginning, "Even though we offer two factions, the Empire exists only to give the Republic something to shoot at. "

 

That or the culmination of Makeb better be the Empire revealing some new weapon/strategy that sets the Republic back on the defensive.

The Emperor's Wrath and Captain Kirrahe demand that you hold the line !