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Vig/Veng leap should be usable in melee range and double as root breaker


wadecounty

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I think this change would put Vig/Veng close to back on par with other melee classes in PvP, with the plethora of roots/snares and movement options available to all classes now. Also would be a bit of a survivability boost, without drastically making them harder to kill.

 

Focus probably needs something as well to compare to the Mara/Sent version but not sure what. Tanks are basically fine as is, although Enure no longer being tied to the utility that gives 50% speed and immunity to snares does hurt a bit.

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But you have Combat Focus, Endure Pain, Immunity after leap and Blade Blitz?

 

And its all on fairly long cd's (except immunity after leap which can be neutralized by not letting you leap). Also the Endure Pain utility got moved to Enraged Defense, which is terrible since its on a much longer cd and if you're being focused it only lasts a second or two.

 

I've mained a Jugg in this game since launch, there have been times they were at the top of the mobility meta (mostly 1.0 up to about 3.0 when everyone started getting new tools), but right now they are in the bottom third and combined with less cooldown uptime than the other melee classes except Sin (who have vanish, which is more powerful when used properly), they are sitting ducks for the most part. Easiest way to completely take a Vig/Veng player out in every game, just don't let him leap.

 

Alternatively, we could remove ball lightning speed utility from sins, nerf the hell out of predation for maras (put it on a 2 minute cooldown or something), nerf Hydraulics (increase cooldown to like a minute 30 or something), and do the same to the ranged classes... but nobody wants to get nerfed. So if you don't want to swing a hammer at every other class in the game, Juggs need a boost to keep up in the mobility meta.

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So you're basically saying, you're in a position where you use 4 root breakers, and you still cant handle roots, despite the fact 3 of those are immunities after breaking the root.

Then, you have 2 purges, but it's still not enough

 

And somehow Force Charge is supposed to solve this?

Mhm

 

While we're asking for stupid things, can i have the GM Lazer skill so i cant beat everyone in a 1v1 with 1 button and brag to all my friends about how alpha i am? :)

Edited by Bonzenaattori
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So you're basically saying, you're in a position where you use 4 root breakers, and you still cant handle roots, despite the fact 3 of those are immunities after breaking the root.

Then, you have 2 purges, but it's still not enough

 

And somehow Force Charge is supposed to solve this?

Mhm

 

While we're asking for stupid things, can i have the GM Lazer skill so i cant beat everyone in a 1v1 with 1 button and brag to all my friends about how alpha i am? :)

 

Let's be realistic for a second here, maybe you've never played the class before. 4 root breakers... so you have the one tied to Enrage, a DPS ability, on a 1 minute cooldown. Which means you have to sacrifice its use for damage if you want it as a root break, and its only available once a minute. Mad Dash root break, again tied to a utility so you have to sacrifice something, on a 35 second cooldown. This is the best one the class has, and its still on a fairly long cooldown, and does not give you additional speed meaning you can be rooted/snared again 2 seconds after its use. Enraged Defense, which actually does not break roots so too bad so sad if you're already rooted, and on a 2 minute cooldown (1 minute 30 second possible if spec'd). Also only lasts for duration of the cooldown, so if you have any dots on you, its gone in a second or two. And finally Unremitting, which also isn't a root break, only immunity upon leap, meaning all the opponent has to do is kite within melee range and keep you rooted and snared to prevent you from utilizing it.

 

Oh yippee, what a mobile class.

 

Meanwhile, SIns have 50% speed boost with 50% uptime from Ball Lightning, and Force Speed every 15 seconds which actually does break roots (and they can still spec Phantom Stride to break them as well). Maras have Predation which is the ultimate movement utility so discussion over there. And PT's have Hydraulics up for 10 out of every 45 seconds with +75% movement speed (that's about 20% uptime). And that's just the other melee classes. Oh and operative troll roll > all but we already know that.

 

Its a fact, Juggs are the easiest melee class to lock down in the game right now, especially DPS Juggs because they lack the +30% speed when guarded target is attacked ability that tanks get.

Edited by wadecounty
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As melee DPS we have Shadow, Scoundrel, Sentinel and Vanguard.

Where Vanguard has no other purges, but 10m range, harpoon and super slow on Flak Shell.

Scoundrels don't purge with their roll but are superior immune to all effects while rolling around... And possible purge on Surrender.

Sentinels have Trancendence, which only works as a purge, every 30s. Possible purge and immunity on Force Camo and purge on Blade Blitz.

For Shadows: everything you said

 

Why should modifing Leap as a root breaker with 0m range improve the situation? That means you have a root breaker every 10-15s (Battlefield Command utility) which even grants immunity to all cc effects. Additionally to possible purge on Combat Focus, Enure and Blade Blitz.

 

The problem I see is the high amount of ccs in the game. To improve the situation the approach should be to reduce ccs instead of giving out more breakers.

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The problem I see is the high amount of ccs in the game. To improve the situation the approach should be to reduce ccs instead of giving out more breakers.

 

I agree with this. That being said, what do you think is more likely to be ok with the majority of people? That most classes get nerfs with their CC and movement to even them with Guardians? Or that they give Guardians a buff to catch up to the crowd?

 

I don't really care what direction they take it, nerfs don't scare or bother me. I just know what the reaction will be from the majority.

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Nerf implies community rage... :D

But since nerfs in stuns won't affect dummy dps, it may result in a more calm reaction.

 

And I still think, that the Guardian's mobility is fine.

 

I thought Guardians were actually overpowered in terms of mobility from around 2.0 to 3.0, before they handed tools to everyone else to catch up. But I think the 5.0 meta has screwed the balance again, and they are definitely lagging behind. Roots and snares are just way too common now, to the point that Unremitting just doesn't matter anymore as a preventative measure, and the few tools Guardians get to counter it are tied to other abilities, cost utility points, and are on medium to long cooldowns.

 

If you think the genie can be put back in the bottle, that's fine, I don't think it's gonna happen though, and to me this is the most sensible solution. I was actually one of the people that said root break or 0 meter range on leap for Guardians would have been overpowered in previous patches, but in the 5.x meta, its needed.

 

The other idea I had to improve Guardian mobility and survivability is to make Guardian Leap a root break baseline ability, with Focus getting the DR from it transferred to themselves as well. This used to be a thing for Vig way back in the 1.x era (receiving the Guardian Leap DR for themselves as well), it'd help Focus out with survivability. And if it acts as a root break, Vig doesn't need the DR because it can just act as a way to get out in order to leap again and get your DR that way.

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Let's be realistic for a second here, maybe you've never played the class before. 4 root breakers... so you have the one tied to Enrage, a DPS ability, on a 1 minute cooldown. Which means you have to sacrifice its use for damage if you want it as a root break, and its only available once a minute. Mad Dash root break, again tied to a utility so you have to sacrifice something, on a 35 second cooldown. This is the best one the class has, and its still on a fairly long cooldown, and does not give you additional speed meaning you can be rooted/snared again 2 seconds after its use. Enraged Defense, which actually does not break roots so too bad so sad if you're already rooted, and on a 2 minute cooldown (1 minute 30 second possible if spec'd). Also only lasts for duration of the cooldown, so if you have any dots on you, its gone in a second or two. And finally Unremitting, which also isn't a root break, only immunity upon leap, meaning all the opponent has to do is kite within melee range and keep you rooted and snared to prevent you from utilizing it.

 

Oh yippee, what a mobile class.

 

Meanwhile, SIns have 50% speed boost with 50% uptime from Ball Lightning, and Force Speed every 15 seconds which actually does break roots (and they can still spec Phantom Stride to break them as well). Maras have Predation which is the ultimate movement utility so discussion over there. And PT's have Hydraulics up for 10 out of every 45 seconds with +75% movement speed (that's about 20% uptime). And that's just the other melee classes. Oh and operative troll roll > all but we already know that.

 

Its a fact, Juggs are the easiest melee class to lock down in the game right now, especially DPS Juggs because they lack the +30% speed when guarded target is attacked ability that tanks get.

 

Name another class other that sith warriors that have 4 ways of breaking root as seperate cooldowns please.

Okay then shut the f*ck up and get good

Oh god warrior not mobile its the end of the video game

 

I must've missed the part where warrior as an archetype meant they were literally unstoppable with 100% uptime without having to spend any value other than a rudimentary gap closer they spend literally 0 utility points on for... that has a lower cooldown than any other gosh darn cooldown/interaction he's comparing it to. Despite the fact the ability he's demanding gets changed, literally has the effect he's butthurt about in the first place, roots. Ironic

 

You're the type of player who in the event every class in the game had EXACTLY the same cooldowns, you'd still lose, get mad and whine instead of seeing the need to improve.

The very argument you're raising you don't even apply to the skills you're dropping except Hydralics.

An operative cannot roll if he's rooted. But that doesn't matter, because you're a trash player who doesn't think like that.

A sin's movement speed from ball lightning doesn't work if you're rooted already, but that doesn't matter because you're a trash player who doesn't think like that.

A marauder isn't immune to roots AFTER popping predation... but guess what. That doesn't matter, because you're a trash player who doesn't think like that.

 

I mean, who cares if a Marauder has to spend one utility point in master tier, and one utility point in heroic tier, just to get the combination of effects you're referring to?

Who cares if an assassin has to spend utility in masterful to get a movement speed effect and they're still vulnerable to roots and it doesn't purge roots either and its 18 seconds not 15 because you're so special you don't even have to do research and learn interactions.

Who cares if you have more interactions than powertechs, assassins and marauders, the very classes you're referring to.

Marauders having 3

Assassins having 3

Powertechs having 1

 

Who cares if you have more roots than all of them combined, with Obliterate, charge, saber throw, ravage root...? And then they whine when the same interaction happens to them

 

Who literally cares?

Who cares if you get 10% damage amp WITH NO COOLDOWN, every time you get rooted and can break the root on activation every single time? Who actually cares?!

 

So instead of thinking that maybe, if you planned AHEAD and realise these classes have to use multiple abilities to remove a root in a situation, maybe they're spending more value than you are. But no, that doesn't matter, becuase you're a trash player who... doesn't think like that.

 

 

LEARN YOUR MATCH UPS AND STOP NERD RAGING... PLEASE

Edited by Bonzenaattori
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Woah dude, think you need to take your own advice about the nerd rage. Big font and red letters, oh no!

 

Anyways you keep saying Juggs have 4 root breaks, they don't, they have 2, and since you complained about utilities, Juggs have to spend utility points to get those root breaks as well. Enrage, root break + 6 sec immunity on 1 minute cooldown so 10% uptime at most, and Blade Blitz version (which Maras also get). You blow both and for 33 seconds if the opponent is smart at all, they'll never let you get a leap off and you're walking in molasses, besides the roots of course (Enraged Defense speed utility is pointless and doesn't root/snare break only gives speed).

 

Its about uptime and the ease with which roots/snares can be reapplied. Most classes can do so instantly and spam them now, and unless we go back and change that, then you need to have easy access root/snare breakers on short cooldowns to counter it.

 

Maras, yeah to upgrade Predation to make it awesome costs utilities. And yet every Mara does so, because its that good. Also if you use the version that requires Fury there's no cooldown, so you can always sacrifice damage to spam it constantly, and it has the added benefits of the defense chance and teamwide effect. I don't even know why you're trying to dismiss Predation, every Jugg would trade that for Unstoppable in a heartbeat, especially now that Ravage sucks, which was the main advantage to Unstoppable in the first place (giving you the ability to cleanly land it).

 

Sins yes Ball Lightning utility doesn't break roots/snares but they're still running around like they're on crack constantly because of it, that said both of their gap closers have root/snare breaks tied to utilities, Force Speed alone on a 15 second cooldown is incredible for that purpose.

 

PT's I'll actually agree have it worse than Juggs in some ways, but they also play differently with most of their attacks having 10 meter range, which affords them more flexibility in terms of how closely they have to fight. You can't 4-10 meter kite a PT, you can't do it that well to an assassin either, but if the Jugg is Vengeance you can do it all day, he has 2 attacks to hit you with that aren't on very long cooldowns and then nothing. Of course PT's have another issue and that's survivability but that's another area of balance, so I'll leave that alone here.

 

I even agreed in a separate post that it doesn't need to be an all-or nothing change. You could make it just usable in melee range. Or just usable as a root breaker (obviously either of these functionalities should cost a high up utility as well). I even suggested simply making the Intercede root break for Rage spec apply for all Juggs as a compromise. Its not like its a huge issue, but right now DPS Juggs are near the back of the line in the mobility arms race and they're also not great in terms of survivability, and both of these issues are related.

 

Anyways, whatever happens happens. I don't even care that much, I subbed because my guild needed a fill-in for ops, so now I get to post again and decided to sh*tpost about some mobility on the forums. This game is on its deathbed anyways, and I'd be ten times happier if it died tomorrow and EA gave up the rights to the Star Wars IP but I know that ain't happening.

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Anyways you keep saying Juggs have 4 root breaks, they don't, they have 2, and since you complained about utilities, Juggs have to spend utility points to get those root breaks as well. Enrage, root break + 6 sec immunity on 1 minute cooldown so 10% uptime at most, and Blade Blitz version (which Maras also get). You blow both and for 33 seconds if the opponent is smart at all, they'll never let you get a leap off and you're walking in molasses, besides the roots of course (Enraged Defense speed utility is pointless and doesn't root/snare break only gives speed).

 

Actually enrage doesn't grant any immunity, just 6 seconds of movement speed increase, it does have a 45 second cooldown though. Then you could theoretically get the cleanse on Endure Pain, although that makes for a very lousy rootbreaker (a far cry from the good old 10 seconds of root immunity on Endure Pain, but I guess that got nerfed because tanks got it for 20 seconds, making it a root immunity with 1/3 uptime).

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Actually enrage doesn't grant any immunity, just 6 seconds of movement speed increase, it does have a 45 second cooldown though. Then you could theoretically get the cleanse on Endure Pain, although that makes for a very lousy rootbreaker (a far cry from the good old 10 seconds of root immunity on Endure Pain, but I guess that got nerfed because tanks got it for 20 seconds, making it a root immunity with 1/3 uptime).

 

Both good points, forgot cleanse basically = root break with the new cleanse mechanic so yeah technically Endure Pain is one as well, but like said hardly worth speccing just for that.

 

The more I think about it, the more I think Intercede should just act as the other root break, maybe tie it into the legendary utility, and to compensate Rage Juggs, give them the old Vengeance talent of having Intercede also give them the DR boost.

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  • 1 month later...
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As melee DPS we have Shadow, Scoundrel, Sentinel and Vanguard.

Where Vanguard has no other purges, but 10m range, harpoon and super slow on Flak Shell.

Scoundrels don't purge with their roll but are superior immune to all effects while rolling around... And possible purge on Surrender.

Sentinels have Trancendence, which only works as a purge, every 30s. Possible purge and immunity on Force Camo and purge on Blade Blitz.

For Shadows: everything you said

 

Why should modifing Leap as a root breaker with 0m range improve the situation? That means you have a root breaker every 10-15s (Battlefield Command utility) which even grants immunity to all cc effects. Additionally to possible purge on Combat Focus, Enure and Blade Blitz.

 

The problem I see is the high amount of ccs in the game. To improve the situation the approach should be to reduce ccs instead of giving out more breakers.

 

Vanguards have no purge? What?

They have a purge and immunity to all push/pull/root along with speed boost. At least that's how I always spec my vg.

Edited by RACATW
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Vanguards have no purge? What?

They have a purge and immunity to all push/pull/root along with speed boost. At least that's how I always spec my vg.

 

Reading my post now, it looks like I simply forgot to complete my sentence. And I wrote "...Vanguard has no other purges", which does not imply that Vanguards have no purge. :p

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Class definitely needs more mobility, jug is the easiest melee class to kite at the minute.

 

Enure utility should come back to its previous form. There was no reason for its nerf, nobody called for it.

 

+1 to this, would really like the root immunity on Endure Pain back, that was some good stuff.

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To me juggies are supposed to be the least mobile melee class.

 

Consider the others:

Shadow: sneaky assassin dualsaber type.

Operative: sneaky stab you in the back type.

PT: mobility is like the only thing they do have, flamethrower basically XD

And then mara: they are literally supposed to be the speedy glass cannon type.

 

This is why i think dps guardians need more of a anti focus tool. We are low mobility by design to differentiate us from our (currently superior) cousins the maras. (Seriously why run rage when you could be running fury and have superior mobility. DcDs, and damage? I admit with vigi jts a more complicated comparison).

 

Basically guardians are not supposed to be speedy or incredibly mobile. We are also supposed to not be cannon fodder.

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To me juggies are supposed to be the least mobile melee class.

 

Consider the others:

Shadow: sneaky assassin dualsaber type.

Operative: sneaky stab you in the back type.

PT: mobility is like the only thing they do have, flamethrower basically XD

And then mara: they are literally supposed to be the speedy glass cannon type.

 

This is why i think dps guardians need more of a anti focus tool. We are low mobility by design to differentiate us from our (currently superior) cousins the maras. (Seriously why run rage when you could be running fury and have superior mobility. DcDs, and damage? I admit with vigi jts a more complicated comparison).

 

Basically guardians are not supposed to be speedy or incredibly mobile. We are also supposed to not be cannon fodder.

 

You know, I agree with that jug should be less mobile but it should be made up with their ability to stay alive longer than others in that case. Right now they're a cannon fodder and less viable than pt dps.

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You know, I agree with that jug should be less mobile but it should be made up with their ability to stay alive longer than others in that case. Right now they're a cannon fodder and less viable than pt dps.

 

You've read enough of my posts on the pvp subforum to inderstand my stance on this. As explained even here i think we need an antifocus of some form BUT with focused defense scaling properly we are already at a strong chance of becoming op and asking for a nerf hammer 3-6 months from now.

 

I for one would rsther be underwhelming than fotm. And yes, every time i go vigi i get focused, so i can symphatize.

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You've read enough of my posts on the pvp subforum to inderstand my stance on this. As explained even here i think we need an antifocus of some form BUT with focused defense scaling properly we are already at a strong chance of becoming op and asking for a nerf hammer 3-6 months from now.

 

I for one would rsther be underwhelming than fotm. And yes, every time i go vigi i get focused, so i can symphatize.

 

A buff to focused defense does nothing, it already overheals the majority of the time, and scales horribly under focus fire as do all healing reliant cooldowns. The only situation it will improve is when a tank 1v1's someone in a duel, because now instead of healing for most of his health he'll heal for all of it, DPS already will, and under focus fire it'll still be useless beyond letting you live an extra GCD.

 

If you want to improve the Guardians ability to live focus fire, which is where their real weakness lies, you need to do things like give them baseline stun DR, and more DR related cooldowns in general, or improve the duration/uptime of saber reflect, or make saber reflect work on melee damage, or (dramatically) lower the cooldown of saber ward, or some combination of all of the above.

 

If you compare the Guardian just to the Sentinel, in terms of damage reduction, a Sentinel spends most of his time at 45-50% DR thanks to cloak of pain having huge uptime, gets 4 seconds of god mode every 3 minutes, gets 6 seconds of near god mode every 45 seconds (that will not change next patch besides losing stun immunity), has camo to disengage whenever needed, and oh yeah predation still makes you hard to track and gives 10% defense chance.

 

This means even if you gave guardians enough DR cooldowns to match a sentinel, they'd still lag behind because they don't have camo to disengage. Really though this wouldn't matter if the game weren't focused on death match type, which it never should have been, but the player base shrunk way too fast and 4v4 arenas are the only competitive game type still supported so it is what it is.

Edited by wadecounty
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snip.

 

Youre another one who should remember my discussion on this matter from the pvp forum.

 

I personally dont remember the last time my focused defense OVER healed, but i apparently spend more time being focused than most somehow.

 

And i also said we needed an anti focus of some form, so i dont see what we are arguing with the rest.

 

And ive also said focus in particular was inferior in literally every measurable way to concentration, and vigi arguably still worse than sents.

 

Consider mercs and their self heal for an example of how self heals can quickly reach OPness. They basically have reflect + self heal rolled onto the same ability but on a longer CD.

Edited by KendraP
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Youre another one who should remember my discussion on this matter from the pvp forum.

 

 

I don't follow everyone's posts on a dead game. This is what you just said:

 

BUT with focused defense scaling properly we are already at a strong chance of becoming op

 

That is wrong. Let me try to illustrate why.

 

Let's say all the charges on a tank heal for 80k now. Let's say they boost it to the point where the charges heal 120k, so you're getting another 40k out of it. Well first of all, you'd have to literally get to almost zero health to see the full benefit from it, or have Enure popped. Secondly, if you have a healer healing you at the same time, you will overheal and waste some of it. And thirdly, let's say you get that extra 40k health. Assuming 2 or more people are attacking you, that 40k is gone in 1-2 GCD's max, so it literally doesn't change your survivability at all.

 

Why is DR so powerful? Let's say 3 targets are attacking you at once (focus in an arena for example, or you're carrying the huttball). All 3 use an attack that does 20k damage to you. If your DR is raised by something modest like 20%, it turns that 60k damage into 48k... so you just gained 12k health. Doesn't seem like much, right? Except, with most DR cooldowns, its active for a set duration, so let's say 6 seconds as that's the shortest you'll find typically, that's 4 GCD's, 12k x 4 = 48k damage mitigated, and that's not even factoring in extreme situations like huttball or when you have dots ticking on you as well, or taking additional guard damage. DR scales exponentially better than health in damage taking situations. This is the whole reason they had to entirely rework assassin tanks to no longer be based around self healing, the devs realized as ops bosses hit harder, the self healing was much less useful. Its also why we gear for mitigation over endurance in PvE, and we would in PvP as well if the mitigation worked on most damage types, but since the damage profile in PvP is different its pointless (something like 80%+ of damage from ops bosses is usually mitigatable, whereas from players its as low as 20% in some situations).

 

Where self healing is strong and even overpowered is in 1v1 duels where there are no outside sources of heals coming in. Here, you can fully benefit off of that extra 40k health, especially since only 1 target is attacking you. In a regular warzone or arena, its gone almost immediately, and damage reduction is king.

 

If they changed Focused Defense to have a rate limit of 1 charge per second (so a duration of 12 seconds minimum), it'd be a lot more useful. Additionally, add some DR while its active for the DPS specs (tanks don't need it), like 15%. This way its got less uptime typically than cloak of pain with longer cooldown, but you get the benefit of self heals as well. That's how I'd rework the skill, personally.

Edited by wadecounty
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